Evan Prodromou
I want to start Canadian member-owned cooperative to run Mastodon servers in Canada.
Similar to social.coop but Canadian.
Notes here:
https://evanp.gitlab.io/canadian-mastodon-cooperative
Copied in thread below:
@bmann @trishussey @blaine @timbray @hypatia @walkah @awsamuel
Evan Prodromou
@bmann @trishussey @blaine @timbray @hypatia @walkah @awsamuel
Canadian member-run co-op
2. 1 co-op membership gets you 1 fediverse account with fixed allowances (uploads, API use, toots per day, etc.) plus a co-op vote
3. has local services per neighbourhood or city, but membership is national
4. run a first emergency server nationally to catch the next wave of Twitter migration
Evan Prodromou
@bmann @trishussey @blaine @timbray @hypatia @walkah @awsamuel
5. Member run, nobody gets paid for now
6. CAD$60/year membership fee
7. I just registered cosocial.ca so let's use that as a name for now
Evan Prodromou
@bmann @trishussey @blaine @timbray @hypatia @walkah @awsamuel
- 4 other people to be directors/incorporators. Diverse voices, including women and nonbinary, 2SLGTBQIA+, Black, Indigenous, fr/en, needed up front.
- Someone to fill out the paperwork
- Someone to collect and manage $$
- Someone(s) to set up the server on Canadian k8s service
Evan Prodromou
@awsamuel YESSSSS #cosocialca
AlexandraSamuel.com????
@evan Can we use #cosocialca as a hashtag for now so folks can find/follow conversation?
Evan Prodromou
@timbray notes that we could probably get things going with a Digital Ocean one-click server very quickly.
Evan Prodromou
@tararobertson That's a really good question! I will try to reach out.
Tara Robertson
@evan @bmann @trishussey @blaine @timbray @hypatia @walkah @awsamuel
love this idea and the callout to having representation with the directors. we know that this will positively impact inclusion later.
being "Canadian" i wonder what opportunities there are for First Nations voices to steer this and who those folks might be. hate to see a new thing start with old colonial values. First Nations Tech Council?
Evan Prodromou
@pensato Oh great! I was thinking federal, since we're spread across CA.
pensato
@evan happy to help with paperwork or anything else (have incorporated a coop within Manitoba in the past)
Evan Prodromou
@timbray Hot. I was planning to file the papers with my home addy in Montreal as the HQ. Would that be a problem for Vancity? Better to have someone in BC?
Tim Bray
@Aphrodite @evan @bmann @trishussey @blaine @hypatia @walkah @awsamuel
Note that VanCity is well-set-up to do business with co-ops: https://www.vancity.com/BusinessBanking/Financing/SpecializedSectorSolutions/Cooperatives/
So i'd recommend starting there once incorporation is filed. As I said, happy to do the grunt work.
Aphrodite ☑️ :boost_ok:
@evan @bmann @trishussey @blaine @timbray @hypatia @walkah @awsamuel
I’m willing to help on the director side and possibly the financial management side (currently doing some work with and making connections in ACFE, though I’m a long way away from that kind of certification)
Evan Prodromou
@wndxlori @chad for help, support, advice?
There's room for multiple servers in Canada, right?
Lori Olson
@trishussey @awsamuel @walkah @bmann @blaine @hypatia @timbray @evan
So maybe tag in @chad?
Evan Prodromou
@chad @wndxlori agreed, good luck! I'll keep you updated as we go forward. ✊?
Chad :CApride: :mstdn:
@evan @wndxlori sure there is! Though with the exploding growth over here I really have zero cycles to help out. I think a lot of #mastoadmin folks are very busy right now.
Evan Prodromou
@timbray @Aphrodite @bmann @trishussey @blaine @hypatia @walkah @awsamuel
I'm working on the paperwork! I figured "Cosocial Cooperative" for the name
Tim Bray
@Aphrodite @evan @bmann @trishussey @blaine @hypatia @walkah @awsamuel
Urgh, not sure masto is the best place for a threaded organizational discussion. Someone got an idea for a better channel? Anyhow, I've been looking, it's pretty easy and cheap to register a Canada Federal-level co-op.
Um… We have to pick a name and it has to be unique. It costs $10 to check. If we want to converge on a small number of candidates, I can run the checks & will cover costs.
Evan Prodromou
@timbray We've got Desjardins on this side. Similar.
Tim Bray
@evan I was just poking around the Govt of Canada registration pages and it look s crushingly similar to registering a nonprofit society in BC, which I've done. I could volunteer to do all that paper-shuffling stuff once you've selected directors and so on. Having said that, if there's a national-scope co-op bank like VanCity, might be a better choice? I'll look.
Evan Prodromou
@timbray Sorry, I meant, "Desjardins is an option but I'm leaving this up to you".
I'll send drafts of the docs by email
Tim Bray
@evan Don't let me get in the way. Happy to help with whatever gruntwork.
Evan Prodromou
@smallcircles @darius @timbray @humanetech
There's a great doc here: https://wiki.social.coop/How-to-make-the-fediverse-your-own.html
Trying to follow that playbook
smallcircles (Humanity Now 🕊)
You could probably take a lot of inspiration here from https://social.coop
I recently migrated from @humanetech and really happy how the cooperative governance is arranged.
Darius Kazemi
@evan @timbray highly recommend setting up a loomio server alongside it for coordinating around governance. we have loomio dot friend dot camp (closed to outsiders)
Evan Prodromou
@waltercool @parker @timbray @blaine @bmann I think we need lots of networks.
waltercool
Evan Prodromou
@NicolasConstant yes
Nicolas Constant
Evan Prodromou
@simagick @bmann @trishussey @blaine @timbray @hypatia @walkah @awsamuel cool beans!
The Silicon Sorceress
@evan @bmann @trishussey @blaine @timbray @hypatia @walkah @awsamuel
I'm an SRE/infrastructure engineer, and this is totally my jam
Evan Prodromou
@dcwalk so, I find the Open Collective model opaque, and I was just going to file a federal coop registration. There are like 2 forms and a name search. We'd have to figure out how to accept payment over the internet and link it to an account, but other than that, it seems straightforward.
Dawn Walk
@evan ooh, also I have experience with Open Collective (https://opencollective.com/) which could be used for open book accounting like social.coop.
Dawn Walk
@evan happy on my current instance but happy to help. I've done the steps to incorporate a worker coop in ON before but now BC based.
Evan Prodromou
@redoak @bmann @trishussey @blaine @timbray @hypatia @walkah @awsamuel typically paid memberships come with some description of the parameters. I think this would be for regular personal use. Can a member create 1M accounts? No, 1 account. Can they use a high-frequency that posts 100x per second? No, 1000 toots per day limit. Can they upload 20 terabytes of satellite images a week? No, 10G/year. It all means, we're going to fairly share these resources.
🧟 Night of the Living Red Oak
@evan @bmann @trishussey @blaine @timbray @hypatia @walkah @awsamuel why would you limit uploads or toots per day? Sounds to me like extra work (afaik no existing fedi system has the tooling for this built in) just to make your community less active, and thus less likely to succeed.
Evan Prodromou
@mila OK, can you sign up at https://cosocial.ca/ ?
Mila
✋ I’d be interested in helping admin the server. I have cloud and k8s experience to contribute
Evan Prodromou
@dcwalk Can you sign up at http://cosocial.ca/ ?
Evan Prodromou
@NicolasConstant can you fill out the form at cosocial.ca ?
Nicolas Constant
Michael Russell
It is an interesting idea! Who would be taking legal responsibility for the content posted to that server?
Evan Prodromou
Cutting out my friends here. I want to give an update.
We're stalled.
We're ready to incorporate and start setting up a server, but.
We're looking around the room, and we're not seeing the reflection of the Canada we want to be.
We're almost all white anglophone women and men.
We don't want to start this and diversify "later".
We want to take our first steps in the right direction.
Evan Prodromou
So, I'm asking, as embarrassing as it is that I don't have enough diversity in my network to do it on my own:
Can you amplify this to help us find #francophone, #Black, #indigenous, and #Asian #Canadian people, able and willing to do the hard work of helping a group remember to take diverse needs into account at the offset, so we can make a good #SocialSpace for everyone from the get go?
If that sounds like you, bless you, could you let me know so we can get a conversation started?
Thanks.
Evan Prodromou
@michaelrussell a cooperative is an incorporated entity in Canada.
As far as I know, its responsibility for the content of a service it provides would be similar to responsibility of a common corporation or a sole proprietor.
I'm not a lawyer, though.
https://ised-isde.canada.ca/site/cooperatives-canada/en/co-operatives-canada
Evan Prodromou
@natematias thanks. That's really helpful.
I was trying to acknowledge that the role is difficult, and I forgot to say how it could be rewarding.
In general, because together we can make social networking fit lived experience in Canada better for everyone.
In particular, for the person involved, it's a chance to put ideas to the test, and solidify a reputation in social media theory and practice.
J. Nathan Matias
@evan I appreciate the honesty here. Also, as a Guatemalan-American who spends a fair amount of unpaid time doing this hard work, this message strikes me as unlikely to attract folks who could help.
In the post, you are asking people to give time and "hard work" into something that doesn't seem to have a clear payoff, especially given that even noticing/remembering these things seems difficult for your group.
Is there a way for you to reverse the power dynamic in your appeal and offer resources/time/energy/listening, and earn the respect of people who are too often burned by entering situations like this?
I offer this comment in the sincerest good faith.
Evan Prodromou
@jdp23 @awsamuel @natematias right. I was trying to acknowledge the work required, and I did not highlight the benefits.
Since there's been a lot of conversation here, I'm going to let it stand, but I'll take the lesson for future consideration.
Jon
@awsamuel thanks, glad it's useful! I know how much you all have to offer but the original post didn't come across as offering, it reads to me like asking for help with something that you're creating. @natematias's framing of looking for ways to reverse the power dynamic is excellent.
AlexandraSamuel.com????
@jdp23 @evan Such a thoughtful note. We need to be explicit that the goal here is to convene a founding board. Most folks involved seem keen to step back into supporting (& hardworking!) roles -- but I think @natematias is spot-on about the value of seeing where we can lend support/resources to initiatives already underway instead of setting wheels in motion and then asking others to step in/up.
and also: Evan (& others) have resources that could be really useful if leveraged!
Jon
@evan It's good that you're lookingn for this and see it as a blocker ... if you want to get things off on the right foot, offer to pay people for their time, and commit to having a diverse leadership. Otherwise it's likely to look to people who don't know you as you're a bunch of white people expecting BIPOC to help you for free.
Evan Prodromou
@ilovefountainpens hi! I also love fountain pens.
I Love Fountain Pens
@evan ??♀️Canadian here! ...more specifically, from Atlantic Canada. Nice to meet you!
Evan Prodromou
@sampavin thanks! In this case we specifically need resident Canadians.
Samuel Pavin ?
@evan while not Canadian, or living in Canada, I am francophone (and actually French), fairly aware of the specifics of Quebec, and French in Canada, and someone who has lived in a variety of countries, some of which with poor records on diversity or inclusion in many forms.
So, if it's ever helpful, happy to have a chat and lend a remote hand.
alisonborealis
@evan
Might wanna contact folks like @chad and the other Canadian mastodon instances (there's one for Halifax, probably a few others for various regions)
Evan Prodromou
@alisonborealis @chad gave us a thumbs-up.
I think we want to see an organization that's member-owned and -run from the jump.
Evan Prodromou
@kevin @dcwalk thanks, that's helpful. We've got people in ON, QC and BC and trying to include more.
kevin harding | 何凯文
@evan @dcwalk have you thought through the legal requirements of a federal co-op registration - offices in two provinces, which may require extra provincial registration in those provinces?
Federal incorporation is a weird thing that sometimes has challenges for the people who volunteer their addresses to be provincial offices.
Evan Prodromou
@dcwalk as far as I can tell, you can use a fiscal host, and then transition to your own bank account, which works out really nicely to bootstrap an org.
Dawn Walk
@evan You can use open collective through a fiscal host before formally incorporating (which seems not helpful here if you are ready to go :)), but I believe social.coop and orgs like meet.coop use it for member dues vs. paypal, stripe. It also gives you an expense receiving/processing flow for members, which works well in diffuse and remote orgs who want to be more transparent with their expenses. The latter way you could would manage as the fiscal host.
Evan Prodromou
@Matt_Noyes set up and run instances, ideally with local focus at the neighborhood, town or city level.
Matt Noyes
@evan @bmann @trishussey @blaine @timbray @hypatia @walkah @awsamuel Is the idea to provide hosting or to set up and run instances? Social.coop runs one instance of Mastodon and partners with Meet.coop and now MayFirst.coop to offer other services. I also wonder about the rationale for national (as opposed to transnational) organization. SC, MC, MFC are all transnational.
Evan Prodromou
@Matt_Noyes yes, we're very aware of social.coop, and copying the playbook from there.
Evan Prodromou
@Matt_Noyes Keeping things local is good. It's not an either-or. Both work. There's lots of room in the fediverse.
Evan Prodromou
@ilovefountainpens sorry, got off course. We have a signup sheet on http://cosocial.ca/
Ben Kwong
@evan Recently, many LGBTQ instances defederated themselves from journa.host because of ongoing difficulties with journalists that far predate #RIPTwitter, and the instance’s administrator. I won’t be able to offer you the complete story as I was only following it peripherally, but I think it would be incumbent on you to delve into that and read as much as you can if your intention is to reach out to marginalized communities that have sought and found refuge here.
Evan Prodromou
@drukqs thanks, good point!
Evan Prodromou
@drukqs that sounds great!
My experience with individual-run social sites has been pretty rough.
Usually, it's one person shouldering the physical, emotional, financial and legal burden of keeping the site running. High burnout rate.
Community participation is usually structureless or ad hoc. There's not an established fair process for decision making or contributing time or money.
I think cooperatives are a great structure for making things fair and transparent from the get-go.
Ben Kwong
@evan I went through a parallel process in the past few days as I sought to move instances from mastodon.social. There were many choices, but in the end I discovered what was important to me was the ability to built trust with the administrators of the instance, their policies, their server block list, their community.
Evan Prodromou
@drukqs I can say pretty emphatically that @nova is awesome and hackyderm is a great community.
Ben Kwong
@evan I’ve only just joined my current instance recently, but I can say that I feel safe here, and I can begin to appreciate what is required to build safe spaces for communities, especially ones that feel underrepresented in a White anglophone majority culture.
Evan Prodromou
@howsen so, that's a fair point.
I should say, we're looking for board members to take the lead. We want 50% or higher board membership to be Black, Indigenous, francophone, and from underrepresented Canadian communities.
The structure of the organization would prevent those people from being shouted down.
How-Sen
To be blunt, this sounds like an invitation to do a bunch of hard work only to either (a) have my voice drowned out by people of the demographic majority or (b) be given the pressure to represent all non-white people who aren’t in the room.
Building relationships is a years-long and decades-long process. My recommendation is that if you’re serious about this, just start the thing up and then spend the time to build those relationships.
Evan Prodromou
@howsen as far as representing all non-white people (or all queer people, or all women and non-binary people, or all dot dot dot):
I think we'd have to acknowledge that inclusion is everyone's responsibility, and that those who have surplus time and resources have a special responsibility to concentrate more.
That said, I don't think there's any substitute for lived experience. Unless there are diverse decision-makers at the table, the decisions are going to go wrong.
Evan Prodromou
@howsen finally, in terms of the hard work: I don't know how to fix that.
Coming in at the very beginning of an organization, before it even becomes an organization, and making it start and grow is hard.
Maybe acknowledging that it's hard work, and putting into place structures to support that hard work, and acknowledging that resources to do that hard work are unevenly distributed, is at least a step towards making it easier?
I'm not sure.
Evan Prodromou
@howsen thanks for your bluntness, by the way.
I Love Fountain Pens
@evan Thanks for the offer. @oceanplayground.social and @halifaxsocial.ca are local to #AtlanticCanada and #Halifax.
Evan Prodromou
@alisonborealis cool, can follow #cosocialca or sign up for notifications at http://cosocial.ca/
alisonborealis
@evan
I think I misunderstood when you first posted. This sounds like a great idea.
(I also think connecting the existing canadian instances would be really cool, but is obviously a different idea from your idea ?)
i'm not a techie but I love the idea of connecting with this.
Maia KB Chowdhury
@evan Hi, I’m writing as a Canadian in the US, and as a mixed race gal. I am not likely to be part of the project since I’m not in Canada (and I love my server, not moving)…
Instead, I’m sharing a friendly Canadian critique of what I understand of your project, in the form of questions back to you:
1. What is your goal with this?
2. Who do you already have on board with this goal, and rather than generally look for #BIPOC folks, whose specific focus and skill are you looking for? What is the talent you seek?
3. Why do you want to do this, and why do you want to recruit help? Why do you want to achieve this goal (see #1)?
4. If you gain your desired base, how will this advance your goal, and what would you like to see happen next?
5. What about being Canadian makes your work in this arena unique in the fediverse? That could be a strength in expanding.
6. Is there another existing group that you could join, to help amplify their work, rather than create something from scratch?
7. After answering all these questions, go back to #1 - is your goal still the same?
Good luck!
Evan Prodromou
@corfiot @howsen unanimous board decisions being required is pretty common in coops as far as I can tell.
Strong Black and Indigenous representation at the top and from the jump will, we hope, make the fit for all Canadians better.
Corfiot
Evan Prodromou
@zhivi will do, thank you!
zhivi
@evan use these hashtags to find us.
#BlackMastodon #BlackTwitter #BlackFediverse #BlackFedi #BlackAcademics #BlackDiaspora #BIPoc #black #blacklivesmatter #blackisbeautiful
Evan Prodromou
Thanks and good point. People who do that work deserve to get paid.
But.
There's no organisation yet to pay anyone anything.
We're seeking a founding team for a member-run co-operative.
If we were to raise money to pay these founding board members, it'd mean there's already a thing (the thing that raised the money) for them to join.
It's a real chicken-and-egg problem.
gentle colossus
@evan pay them $$$$$ or gtfo
Evan Prodromou
@xlrobot also, I think we recognise that Black or Indigenous people, visible minorities, 2SLGBTQIA+ people, have less free time, energy, risk tolerance and personal infrastructure to participate in volunteer technology initiatives without compensation.
Evan Prodromou
@xlrobot absolutely the case!
But there's no substitute for lived experience.
I overemphasized the hard work in this, without emphasizing the potential benefits.
At a collective level, the opportunity to tailor a social network to the needs of underserved communities does not come around often.
At a personal level, we're literally looking for board members on a 5-person board. The potential for getting paid in the future is there. And the chance to put ideas into motion is great.
gentle colossus
@evan I was being cheeky but the point is serious. the "hard work of helping a group remember to take diverse needs into account" is YOURS. read the books, have the conversations, question why your circle is so white, and think about what could be done to make others feel welcome
Evan Prodromou
@kevin you're not! We started collecting contact info on Friday. We'll probably have a "town hall" meeting this week. American Thanksgiving is a great time for Canadians to meet.
kevin harding | 何凯文
@evan Hi Evan - has there been any action from the Google form so far? I filled it out and haven't heard anything, want to make sure I'm not missing anything.
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