So, here's a problem I have with Mastodon: let's say I make a post and someone replies with a racist, sexist, homophobic or transphobic comment. I can block that comment, but that only hides it for me. Other people who come to my page will see the comment, and believe that I tacitly condone that behaviour. I'd like to be able to delete the reply from my replies list entirely. Or at least hide replies from blocked accounts. And, yes, I know that wouldn't delete it from the originating server.
@jwildeboer it's not a fundamental problem; we've always made the OP responsible for the list of replies. That's why there's a `replies` collection in every ActivityPub object.
@evan It's one of these classic, fundamental problems in decentralised networks ;) Who "owns" the list of replies? I would say the author of the starting thread gets to maintain the list of accepted replies and this list propagates across the fediverse. Others will say that at max a flag should be added with a qualifier and that other instances should be free to decide if/how they show/hide flagged replies. But who gets to add flags? Just the thread "owner" or any reader? Etc.
@evan I'd favour the first approach. When you load a post from me (be it an original post or a reply I posted to someone else's post) you should receive a list of replies I accept. And I should be allowed to define what that list contains. But it's a complex issue.
@evan Threads has nearly exactly this feature - “hide comment” where after you do that neither you nor anyone else sees it, but the original poster is NOT notified. So they don’t harass further.
@evan A simple solution would be to reply to the offensive post saying "I do not condone this and will now block your account" or similar. Then block. Presumably your reply will remain visible on others' timelines.
@nyquildotorg@mce@funbaker I also, selfishly, want to protect my reputation. When someone goes to one of my posts and sees a racist image in a reply, with no repercussions, they're going to think I'm OK with that. Right now, I have to reply "This is unacceptable" or something similar.
@funbaker@mce@evan what Evan is asking for: Evan as an individual created a post, which some jerkwad later replies with something offensive and off-topic. Evan the individual wants to be able to remove replies to his post to protect the thousands of other individuals whom are now subjected to it because they wanted to see what Evan had to say.
@nyquildotorg@evan I remember that. I can’t say I entirely disagree but having thought about it a lot since I believe that I do want an option to “orphan” someone’s comment, reply, mention.
It shouldn’t be on an individual to engage with a troll and/or bad-actor just to avoid implicitly condoning terrible material tacked onto something else.
Every object has a `replies` collection. What we need is:
1) When showing the replies to an object, use the `replies` collection -- not a search for `inReplyTo` or `ostatus:conversation`, which is what Mastodon does right now. 2) Let the user add and remove objects from the replies collection. 3) (Optional) Notify addressees when a new object is added to the `replies` collection (`Approve` or `Add` activity)
@evan interesting. So if a server allowed the activity's actor to remove items from the replies collection that would be considered appropriate in terms of compliance with ActivityPub? @jwildeboer
Somehow you make it sound like a post you make belongs to you (as in property) and you should be able to control who can respond to it.
Let's act as adults and realize that once you make a public statement you no longer "own" this statement, it is there in public domain, people can agree/disagree, adopt, or reject it, or even modify it and restate the original. It is what we want, isn't it?
It wouldn't have occurred to me to blame you for someone else's behavior. But if you really want to make it clear that homophobic reply guy doesn't speak for you, you could reply back. You could mention that you're both reporting the reply to the moderators, and blocking the person.
@tshirtman why? I can do that on blog comments. It wouldn't delete it from the replier's server or anywhere else; just from the page that shows my original post.
@evan i think the normal response would be to report it, and the server it originates from should ban them, and if they don't, this server should get limited federation, for being badly moderated, but yeah, it's not an immediate response, and it'll certainly frequently fail.
But on the other hand, the ability to delete any response you don't like might be a bit much.
@evan Yeah, that's been a consistent ask for a very long time, as I understand it. I think fep-7888 (and fep-5624, revised to apply to the context field as described in 7888) gives the most robust and reliable mechanism to federate that kind of reply moderation.
@KatKimbriel I think that's it. Another option is reporting the account and hoping it gets deleted. Lastly, you can reply to the post saying they're blocked or whatever, and then block them. It at least lets people know you're trying.
So, our only recourse at this point is to block the person, delete our post, and then repost with a warning (not a link) about the person we blocked's prior behavior?
@evan You’re probably already aware of the weaponisation of replies that are only visible to the recipient, the sender, and the sender’s network, as an abuse vector. It sounds to me like related issues, the delinking getting propagated through the network.
@fraying The protocol-as-implemented is different, sometimes a lot, from protocol-as-designed. I depend a lot of people telling me how things really work.
@evan update: I’ve gleaned the basics from your replies to others - thanks. Also boy do a lot of people want to explain AP to you. How do you stay so calm?
@evan could you say more about that? My only point of reference is what’s implemented in masto. What’s in the protocol that could be implemented differently?
@fraying well, actually, not entirely. We have a part that says that there's a collection of replies, and we have a part that says you can edit any collection that belongs to you. It doesn't say explicitly that you can edit that particular collection.
I should also say, as always, I really respect the work that the Mastodon team has put into this platform. Mastodon breathed life into the ActivityPub spec, and made a working social web with a lot of loosely-defined wording. We would not be where we are today with the fediverse without the Mastodon team bridging that gap.
@evan yeah, imho jwz had the right idea: replies to a post should be a timeline/collection, curated by the author, hosted with the the post...
"inReplyTo" already allows thread-chaining for clients that want to assemble a thread view, AP already has excellent timeline/collection support, all it needs is a field on the post (like "replyCollection"?) to indicate the id of this collection.
this could be a short FEP. i'd just want to try implementing it in my server first to make sure it'd work.
@evan The challenge with this is that it can also be used by bad actors. Let us assume that we roll out the feature you have requested.
I am a bad actor spreading disinformation. You reply with a link to the corrected information. I delete your reply therefore ensuring that nobody who follows me can have their bubble pierced.
Better yet, I can reply to you and then Block some relevant replies. Leaving only enough to make you look like a bad actor.
@evan you can post a public reply to such comment, state that you completely despise the contents of it and that you’ll block and report the person. This way anyone reading through your page will see that you don’t condone that behavior.
@evan it’s the fundamental problem with the idea that a reply to your post is *not* a reply on your post, it is literally someone else’s post that is linked to yours. Which causes so many problems. I guess unlinking them should be made possible in some capacity—you can’t delete someone else’s post, but you can make it not-findable under yours.
I don't know if this is just Mastodon's bizarre way of organizing comment threads, or what, but I'm really not seeing anything about better ActivityPub implementations in this thread, and keyword search for "Friendica" isn't turning anything up.
I saw some stuff about Cohost and Post, but I don't know if those are AP?
Any chance you could link to the relevant portions of the thread?
Sorry for being unclear. I meant that doing ctrl-F on your thread wasn't turning up anything about Friendica. Was wondering if you could provide links to any toots about AP implementations with better author control over replies.