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  1. Embed this notice
    Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:25:10 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell

    For the past year or so, I’ve been using and enjoying the search engine Kagi. Its search results are…fine, no worse than others, and it’s ad-free, stated privacy as a primary goal, and seemed to have a better ethical sense than its competitors.

    Or so I hoped.

    1/

    In conversation Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:25:10 JST from hachyderm.io permalink
    • Børge repeated this.
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:27:27 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to

      Kagi recently started using some services provided by Brave, a company run by immensely objectionable people. Kagi community members rightly raised concerns about this.

      I was curious to see Kagi’s response. This is a tricky question that requires a thoughtful, careful response. Their response would be telling: not just about the question of Brave, but about their general ethical outlook.

      2/

      In conversation Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:27:27 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:29:35 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to

      I’m sympathetic to Kagi’s dilemma. This company may well provide useful services. And it is impossible to completely avoid engaging with people and companies who do harm in the world; that is our reality.

      We can’t always disengage. What we •can• do, at a bare minimum, is think carefully about how we engage, and make wise decisions (as businesses and as individuals) that take into account our indirect impact on the world.

      Again, these community concerns merit a thoughtful response.

      3/

      In conversation Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:29:35 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:30:23 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to

      What I found was _not_ a thoughtful, careful response. What I found was the founder of Kagi saying:

      “Politics finding its way into tech is one of the reason we do not have innovation any more.”

      https://kagifeedback.org/d/2808-reconsider-your-partnership-with-brave/5

      Well shit. That is the reddest of red flags.

      4/

      In conversation Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:30:23 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:33:55 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to

      My dude, politics were deeply intertwined with tech long before I wrote my first line of code back in 1982. You don’t get to opt out. That choice isn’t even on the table. You interact with humans, you interact with politics.

      Vlad’s post is an historically ignorant, pants-on-head-stupid answer to a serious question. When I read it, I hear, “We’re not ethically mature enough to think about our social responsibility, so we’ve given ourselves permission to take no responsibility at all.”

      5/

      In conversation Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:33:55 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:35:45 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to

      I mean, at •best• that’s what I hear. At worst, I suspect that Kagi’s leadership is sympathetic to (or fully in bed with) the right-wing politics of Brave, and is using a claim of being apolitical as cover for their own politics. That would be par for the course when somebody gives this sort of “I’m staying out of politics” excuse for their politically charged actions.

      6/

      In conversation Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:35:45 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:36:56 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to

      Which is it? Doesn’t matter.

      When I give a company access to all of my searches, I’m giving them an •extraordinary• degree of trust. Earning that trust from me requires a keen ethical awareness, and a sense of responsibility that never shrinks into the shadows and says “Not our problem! Not our responsibility!” when market forces raise ethical questions.

      I want a company with a moral compass and a spine.

      7/

      In conversation Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:36:56 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:38:22 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to

      I want to know that the people at a search company believe that my ethical concerns are their concerns, that they view social responsibility as their responsibility, and that they won’t duck under a rock and make expedient excuses for themselves.

      Who is that company? Not Google. Not Microsoft.

      I’d hoped it might be Kagi.

      Nope.

      8/

      In conversation Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:38:22 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:42:07 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to

      Search is a wasteland right now. Alas. And there are no good choices.

      But look, if I’m going to •pay• a company money for search, it needs to be a company run by ethically mature people. If and when Kagi is run by such people, maybe I’ll give that paid plan another go. For now, well, maybe these childish people will blunder their way to maturity and maybe they’ll just blunder, but either way, they won’t be doing it on my dime.

      /end

      In conversation Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:42:07 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:55:24 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Mastodon Migration

      @mastodonmigration For me, the Brave question was only a question — but the ineptitude of this response suggests to me that either (1) the founder is not ready to play with the grown-ups or (2) the founder is secretly terrible. At this point, even if they pulled the Brave relationship, I’d still be out. This is not somebody ready for prime time.

      In conversation Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:55:24 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Mastodon Migration (mastodonmigration@mastodon.online)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:55:25 JST Mastodon Migration Mastodon Migration
      in reply to

      @inthehands

      Thanks for this thoughtful post. Not familiar with Kagi, but the ethical dilemma is old as the ages. Something is developed with the best of intentions, or at least marketed as such. It gains traction, and the idealism of the founders is tested over and over again with progressively greater incentive to join the dark side. Eventually the magnitude of the payday is just too great, the deal is struck, and "don't be evil" goes out the window.

      In conversation Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:55:25 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:59:23 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Dorit

      @doritc Yeah. I mean, even more than search quality, what I was paying for was trust. With that damaged, it’s not worth paying for.

      In conversation Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:59:23 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Dorit (doritc@norden.social)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:59:24 JST Dorit Dorit
      in reply to

      @inthehands Thanks for the explanation. I was trialing Kagi, but not convinced of the balance between gains and extra effort. If now the gains vanish …

      In conversation Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 15:59:24 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Jess👾 (jesstheunstill@infosec.exchange)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 16:14:48 JST Jess👾 Jess👾
      in reply to

      @inthehands

      Politics has been inexorably intertwined with tech ever since ancient hominids used a tool to accomplish a task for the first time hundreds of thousands of years ago.

      But ALSO, people's objections to the Brave leadership aren't "political" disagreements unless you want to consider people's human rights "political".

      In conversation Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 16:14:48 JST permalink
      Paul Cantrell repeated this.
    • Embed this notice
      phiofx (phiofx@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 16:19:14 JST phiofx phiofx
      in reply to

      @inthehands i suspect that just like mozilla and any other niche operator facing the concentration of power and money in bigtech they dont have many options. Money is scarce for wannabee disruptors of the worst cartel in history, existentially scarce.

      Not excusing any choices, just pondering the conditions under which they are made.

      Imho we are now in a phase where only search-as-public-good can change the status quo. Essentially only governments/states can kill the monster they created.

      In conversation Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 16:19:14 JST permalink
      Paul Cantrell repeated this.
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 16:22:49 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Jess👾

      @JessTheUnstill Yup. And…I guess I do consider people’s human rights “political” inasmuch as there are always ways human rights are under threat in any society — and since “politics” is the word for “the set of activities associated with making decisions in groups, or other forms of power relations among individuals,” well, then, politics is the word for how we fight to protect (or destroy) those rights. (Similar thoughts to yours from different angle, I think.)

      In conversation Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 16:22:49 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 16:25:44 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • phiofx

      @phiofx Yeah. As per upthread, I’m actually quite sympathetic to whatever forces might be pushing them to collaborate with a highly objectionable company. It’s the response that’s the deal-killer. Even more than search quality, what I’m was paying Kagi for was •trust•. That’s damaged now; these people are at best too immature to be trustworthy. At that point, what am I paying for?!

      In conversation Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 16:25:44 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 16:34:10 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Childless Bambino

      @ChildlessBambino Hadn’t heard of it before. Thanks!

      In conversation Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 16:34:10 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Childless Bambino (childlessbambino@mastodon.green)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 16:34:11 JST Childless Bambino Childless Bambino
      in reply to

      @inthehands if no one has suggested it yet you could give mojeek a try. I alternative between them and ddg

      https://www.mojeek.com

      In conversation Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 16:34:11 JST permalink

      Attachments

      1. No result found on File_thumbnail lookup.
        Mojeek
        Mojeek is a web search engine that provides unbiased, fast, and relevant search results combined with a no tracking privacy policy.
    • Embed this notice
      phiofx (phiofx@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 16:43:23 JST phiofx phiofx
      in reply to

      @inthehands i think the abstract, macro, idea is that companies must treat their clients well (trust as a condition for staying in business). But we know that at the micro level this is breached all the time. Surveillance capitalism did not invent greed, just the next level of it.

      For-profit search business models where clients pay directly should minimally be heavily regulated and monitored, like any entity that has access to such vast amounts of user data.

      In conversation Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 16:43:23 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Chris Kolbu (nesevis@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 16:57:03 JST Chris Kolbu Chris Kolbu
      in reply to
      • Nick Lockwood

      @inthehands @nicklockwood Well shit.

      In conversation Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 16:57:03 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Jeff ♨️ Darcy (obdurodon@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 23:13:56 JST Jeff ♨️ Darcy Jeff ♨️ Darcy
      in reply to

      @inthehands "We don't want politics in XYZ" is just another way of saying "we like the political situation as it is". Always. There is no "politically neutral" model of interaction. What we should promote is a *cosmopolitan* model, where people can express a variety of political views safely. Some views (e.g. those that deny others' rights including the right to their own opinion) should still have consequences, but most should be able to *coexist*.

      In conversation Saturday, 06-Jan-2024 23:13:56 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 00:39:13 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • 🇨🇦🇩🇪🇨🇳张殿李🇨🇳🇩🇪🇨🇦

      @zdl
      I’ve found that by sheer numbers, there are plenty of morally concerned techies — they just don’t rush to start companies.

      In conversation Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 00:39:13 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      🇨🇦🇩🇪🇨🇳张殿李🇨🇳🇩🇪🇨🇦 (zdl@mastodon.online)'s status on Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 00:39:14 JST 🇨🇦🇩🇪🇨🇳张殿李🇨🇳🇩🇪🇨🇦 🇨🇦🇩🇪🇨🇳张殿李🇨🇳🇩🇪🇨🇦
      in reply to

      @inthehands Truth be told, I find that most strongly technical people are moral toddlers. Very little I've seen while working in tech companies (in marketing) convinces me otherwise.

      Are there moral techies? Of course. It's just they're the unicorns. Most are amoral. Some are flat-out vile.

      In conversation Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 00:39:14 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 00:52:03 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Peter Milley

      @petermilley Yes, with my cancellation.

      In conversation Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 00:52:03 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Peter Milley (petermilley@mstdn.ca)'s status on Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 00:52:04 JST Peter Milley Peter Milley
      in reply to

      @inthehands that response has a lot of likes on the kagifeedback thread. Has Kagi received your feedback?

      In conversation Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 00:52:04 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 00:53:30 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Jeff ♨️ Darcy

      @Obdurodon I mostly agree.

      On top of that, I want a model where people actually think about their actions, and listen to others about those consequences.

      In conversation Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 00:53:30 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Sven A. Schmidt (finestructure@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 00:54:21 JST Sven A. Schmidt Sven A. Schmidt
      in reply to

      @inthehands Renewal coming up on Jan 22, so that was impeccable timing. Cancelled 🛑

      In conversation Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 00:54:21 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 00:54:21 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Sven A. Schmidt

      @finestructure I’d renewed on Dec 28. Sigh.

      In conversation Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 00:54:21 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Sven A. Schmidt (finestructure@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 00:54:22 JST Sven A. Schmidt Sven A. Schmidt
      in reply to

      @inthehands I’ve been on a paid plan with Kagi for a year now but I’m not going to renew. Back to DuckDuckGo, I suppose… There’s a distinct lack of search engines that are just… decent.

      In conversation Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 00:54:22 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 00:56:38 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • codedude

      @codedude I mean, you might not be wrong — and Google in particular has gone downhill fast in recent years. But at least with them there’s a sense that they think they need to have reasons for things, not this “I”m a safe driver because I don’t look at the road” businesses.

      And yes, some companies really are better than others. Google & MS are still ethically miles better than Facebook, for example.

      In conversation Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 00:56:38 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      codedude (codedude@masto.ai)'s status on Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 00:56:39 JST codedude codedude
      in reply to

      @inthehands the cynical part of me wants to think that Microsoft and Google are just as bad - it’s just as not as obvious. :/

      In conversation Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 00:56:39 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      A Part of Bee (morix@loci.onl)'s status on Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 00:57:00 JST A Part of Bee A Part of Bee
      in reply to

      @inthehands I just got inspired to meme by this awful statement.

      In conversation Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 00:57:00 JST permalink

      Attachments


      1. https://loci.onl/system/media_attachments/files/111/708/981/973/274/148/original/d822af264e5fa315.jpg
      Paul Cantrell repeated this.
    • Embed this notice
      MJ (jotaemei@social.coop)'s status on Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 02:34:10 JST MJ MJ
      in reply to

      @inthehands Yeah, the search results seem to net just about as bad as Google’s except for one test. https://danluu.com/seo-spam/

      In conversation Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 02:34:10 JST permalink

      Attachments

      1. No result found on File_thumbnail lookup.
        How bad are search results? Let's compare Google, Bing, Marginalia, Kagi, Mwmbl, and ChatGPT
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 02:34:19 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • MJ

      @jotaemei
      A fascinating post, thanks

      In conversation Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 02:34:19 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Matthew Miller (mattdm@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 07:21:32 JST Matthew Miller Matthew Miller
      in reply to

      @inthehands

      They also seem to be losing the war vs content farms, and that is only going to get worse in the next few years.

      In conversation Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 07:21:32 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      starkrg@myside-yourside.net's status on Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 09:33:12 JST StarkRG StarkRG
      in reply to
      • A Part of Bee

      @morix @inthehands Politics is stifling innovation in cotton farm personnel management. --Confederate leaders, probably

      In conversation Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 09:33:12 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 10:28:06 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • ThunderFist!!!

      @thunderfist No idea. I’m looking around too, same as you.

      In conversation Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 10:28:06 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      ThunderFist!!! (thunderfist@mastodon.online)'s status on Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 10:28:08 JST ThunderFist!!! ThunderFist!!!
      in reply to

      @inthehands any thoughts on searx or searxng? I'm looking at those as potential replacements.

      In conversation Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 10:28:08 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 10:30:12 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • DHeadshot's Alt

      @ddlyh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
      I'm more or less at square one investigating search engines.

      In conversation Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 10:30:12 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      DHeadshot's Alt (ddlyh@topspicy.social)'s status on Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 10:30:14 JST DHeadshot's Alt DHeadshot's Alt
      in reply to

      @inthehands
      Search is pretty limited and the few independent players aren't as useful for a lot of things, but AI could level the playing field... ...By making the content of the big players so bad it doesn't matter what search engine you use, you'll still get rot! I guess we'll be going back to curated site directories for most things but that won't help for error messages...

      In the meantime, what do you think of Mojeek? I've found them useful on occasion.

      In conversation Sunday, 07-Jan-2024 10:30:14 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Claudius Link (realn2s@infosec.exchange)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 00:50:41 JST Claudius Link Claudius Link
      in reply to
      • Jess👾

      @JessTheUnstill @inthehands
      Additionally most of the tech exists because of "politics"
      Thinking e.g. of the military finding of the ARPNET

      One could say, without politics there is no innovation

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 00:50:41 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      noodlejetski :verified_gay: (noodlejetski@masto.ai)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 00:51:12 JST noodlejetski :verified_gay: noodlejetski :verified_gay:
      in reply to
      • Michael Santaly
      • Matthew Lyon

      @wonkothesane @mattly @inthehands yeah, kinda sad how that "shoving" comment is still there, but Vlad has been removing any new comments and just directs people to DM him instead. saw a thread where two people were criticizing the company's response disappear before my eyes last night.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 00:51:12 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Michael Santaly (wonkothesane@mstdn.social)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 00:51:13 JST Michael Santaly Michael Santaly
      • Matthew Lyon

      @mattly @inthehands I’ve been trying to reason with people in their discord server…it’s kinda wild how much it embodies toxic tech culture. “These people are woke” and “stop shoving LGBTQ issues down our throats” are actual responses I’m encountering.

      To be clear these people are not the dev team (so far), but I would nuke the entire server if I was hosting a community like that

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 00:51:13 JST permalink
      Paul Cantrell repeated this.
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 00:55:30 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Valentijn Sessink

      @valentyn
      Valentijn, you’ve really missed the central line of thought of the thread. Slow down. Read better. What specifically do I identify as the reason for canceling service? It’s not “rejecting people.” What is it?

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 00:55:30 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Valentijn Sessink (valentyn@mastodon.nl)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 00:55:31 JST Valentijn Sessink Valentijn Sessink
      in reply to

      @inthehands I'm not sure I understand the part where you start rejecting people because they reject people. For me, the more general view is to hope to include everyone. That's not possible, I know. But in order to be inclusive, I feel an obligation to try to be inclusive. Yeah, that includes idiots, bigots, users of Kagi and haters of it too and also people who just don't care. I hope you feel welcome, too.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 00:55:31 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷 (larsmb@mastodon.online)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 00:55:46 JST Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷 Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
      in reply to

      @inthehands What's most disappointing here is the lack of seeing how this clashes with #Kagi 's supposed mission of "humanizing the web".

      You can't do that while pretending ethics aren't part of it. Or by defending your business relationship with someone who denies basic human rights to some.

      I think it'd be recoverable for Kagi if they end up revisiting the issue, but right now, I'm disappointed a.f.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 00:55:46 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 01:01:00 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
      • Georges Danton

      @kzhe @larsmb
      Given that my deal-killing objection was not actually them using Brave’s services but rather their unwillingness to think about the underlying issues, I can’t say that this “we’ll let you cover your eyes too” response addresses my concerns at all.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 01:01:00 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Georges Danton (kzhe@expressional.social)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 01:01:02 JST Georges Danton Georges Danton
      in reply to
      • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷

      @larsmb @inthehands They've announced changes on their Discord, which are limited to: allow users to filter their result sources, potentially not pay Brave and instead ask for free API access.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 01:01:02 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Blake E. Reid 🍍🍕🥫🏁 (blakereid@mastodon.lawprofs.org)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 01:04:14 JST Blake E. Reid 🍍🍕🥫🏁 Blake E. Reid 🍍🍕🥫🏁
      in reply to

      @inthehands d'oh. I had no idea about Brave. Any other suggestions for a privacy-protective Chromium browser?

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 01:04:14 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷 (larsmb@mastodon.online)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 01:14:20 JST Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷 Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
      in reply to
      • Georges Danton

      @inthehands Kind of in agreement. However, I hope they are going to think about the issues now. It'd have been best if they had done so before, obviously ...

      @kzhe

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 01:14:20 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 01:14:20 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
      • Georges Danton

      @larsmb @kzhe
      What’s turned me off is the incapacity for thought. Whatever they decide about Brave now that they’re under pressure, I just don’t see a company that’s ready to play with the grown-ups.

      Here’s the thing: the Brave issue is relatively minor compared to the ethical questions a search company is going to face. And they’ll often face those questions out of public sight, and free from public pressure.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 01:14:20 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 02:29:50 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to

      ADDENDUM 1/2: Kagi is apparently now flailing around trying to find a quick and dirty fix for the uproar: “maybe you can disable Brave in your search results or we’ll try to make their services free other something” etc etc.

      My deal-killing objection was not actually them using Brave’s services, but rather their •unwillingness to think• about the underlying issues in doing so. I can’t say that this “we’ll let you cover your eyes too” sort of response addresses my concerns at all.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 02:29:50 JST permalink

      Attachments


      Rimu repeated this.
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 02:35:40 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to

      ADDENDUM 2/2: A search engine is going to face some of the toughest ethical problems a tech company can face. And they’ll face most of those problems ••out of public sight••.

      I’m interested in the people, their thought process, their temperament. How do they engage with ethical questions? Perfection is impossible, but will they at least •try•? Do they have the capacity to try? Do they even give a shit?

      Or do they actively refuse to give a shit and call that a virtue? Apparently so for Kagi.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 02:35:40 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 02:56:23 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Jess👾
      • Claudius Link
      • Galbinus Caeli 🌯

      @SkipHuffman @realn2s @JessTheUnstill Nothing endures but change and typos.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 02:56:23 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Galbinus Caeli 🌯 (skiphuffman@astrodon.social)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 02:56:24 JST Galbinus Caeli 🌯 Galbinus Caeli 🌯
      in reply to
      • Jess👾
      • Claudius Link

      @realn2s @JessTheUnstill @inthehands "ARPANET" for anyone trying to look that up.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 02:56:24 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Donald Ball (donaldball@triangletoot.party)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:29:46 JST Donald Ball Donald Ball
      in reply to

      @inthehands Aside from everything else, it seems a total misread of or disregard for the choices their own customers are making in subscribing. Efficacy is part of it, sure, but ethics is as well!

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:29:46 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:30:36 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Donald Ball

      @donaldball
      Exactly. I don’t think they understand what they’re selling, what their customers had been paying for.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 04:30:36 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 06:46:28 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • मेंथी

      @trigonella
      Indeed.

      I’d say that being apolitical or apathetic in the face of oppression •is• being political.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 06:46:28 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      मेंथी (trigonella@social.seattle.wa.us)'s status on Monday, 08-Jan-2024 06:46:29 JST मेंथी मेंथी
      in reply to

      @inthehands For those who are #Kagi subscribers, you can make your feelings known by emailing support@kagi.com

      Being apolitical or apathetic in the face of oppression is not a virtue.

      In conversation Monday, 08-Jan-2024 06:46:29 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jan-2024 06:33:22 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Louis
      • Donald Ball

      @louis @donaldball What •this• previously paying Kagi thought he was paying for was:

      - decent search results
      - without ads
      - without privacy abuses
      - without appeasing authoritarians
      - without ignoring human impact
      - and, in general, with greater concern for ethics than Google has shown of late

      When they marketed themselves as “humanizing the web” — their term — that’s certainly the picture I got.

      Not “search quality at any cost, nothing else matters.”

      In conversation Sunday, 21-Jan-2024 06:33:22 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Louis (louis@emacs.ch)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jan-2024 06:33:24 JST Louis Louis
      in reply to
      • Donald Ball

      @inthehands @donaldball Any what is it they are selling? Please enlighten me as a paying Kagi customer.

      In conversation Sunday, 21-Jan-2024 06:33:24 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jan-2024 07:02:02 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Louis
      • Donald Ball

      @louis @donaldball There is an entire thread above, which I encourage you to scroll up and read

      In conversation Sunday, 21-Jan-2024 07:02:02 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Louis (louis@emacs.ch)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jan-2024 07:02:04 JST Louis Louis
      in reply to
      • Donald Ball

      @inthehands @donaldball Where did they change to “search quality at any cost, nothing else matters.” ?

      In conversation Sunday, 21-Jan-2024 07:02:04 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      freeformz 🏳️‍🌈 (freeformz@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jul-2024 00:18:13 JST freeformz 🏳️‍🌈 freeformz 🏳️‍🌈
      in reply to

      @inthehands well shit.

      In conversation about 10 months ago permalink

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