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1. Embed this notice
   Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 03:06:31 JST Chris Trottier

   • John Gruber

   Point blank, a mass Fediblock isn't going to work with #Meta.
   
   The cold truth is that people will use #Barcelona whether it federates or not. Even if it fails, Barcelona will probably have more users out of the gate than almost every project save Mastodon. Hell, it will probably eclipse #Bluesky too.
   
   And even if you convince every server to defederate -- which you won't -- this will not be a PR coup for the Fediverse. Newspaper headlines won't blare "Fediverse successfully resists Meta." Instead, they will probably follow @gruber@mastodon.social take with "Open source zealots complain that an open protocol is open."
   
   Again, as I've said countless times, I'm not saying you should federate with Barcelona or any Meta-owned property. If you want, defederate. The joy of the Fediverse is freedom of association.
   
   But a mass Fediblock doesn't solve a few important problems with Meta, and perhaps makes them worse.
   
   The most critical problem is that Meta users need to migrate away from Meta-owned social networks. Until now, a migration path has simply been unfeasible to most. But when Barcelona gets launched, it is possible that many of them will become aware of a greater Fediverse.
   
   How to build that awareness? By interacting with them through services beyond Barcelona.
   
   This approach works. I've interacted with many Mastodon users through services beyond Mastodon, and this has resulted in adoption of other Fediverse software. #Calckey is a case in point.
   
   However, there's a bigger problem concerning Meta: Fediverse replacements for Meta-owned social networks aren't getting mass adoption. And it's not because these apps aren't good.
   
   #Pixelfed is an #Instagram replacement. It is also one of the slickest apps on the Fediverse. Yet, Pixelfed only has 150,000 registered accounts.
   
   #Friendica is a #Facebook replacement. It's been around since 2010. It is a mature product that does many things very well, but Friendica only has 17,000 registered accounts.
   
   The software is great but we are failing to effectively market the Fediverse beyond Mastodon. Now I'm trying my darnedest to change this, and so are many people. But facts are facts. Fediverse alternatives to Meta are a blip on the radar.
   
   Refusing to federate with Barcelona won't change this. How do I know?
   
   Because we don't federate now, and the status quo remains intact.
   
   Meanwhile, Meta is practically gifting Pixelfed and Friendica an opportunity for federation, and it would be foolish to not consider broader implications.
   
   How is it that more people aren't considering this opportunity?
   
   Dare I say that most people -- including devs -- suffer from myopia concerning what the Fediverse is. The Fediverse is not Mastodon, and it is wrong to view the Fediverse solely through the eyes of Mastodon.
   
   And I'll go further: by focusing Barcelona on text, I suspect that Meta is likewise making the same mistake of viewing the Fediverse as a "Twitter killer".
   
   What they may not be considering is that the Fediverse might be a "Meta killer" too. And connecting Barcelona to the Fediverse is opening a can of worms Meta hasn't entirely considered yet.
   
   If Barcelona is indeed text-based, what will happen when a Barcelona user encounters Pixelfed and asks, "Why does this post show reels? And why can't I do the same?"
   
   Believe me, this is the kind of content that triggers migration.
   
   We need to think bigger than Fediblock. Yes, for your own mental health and safety, you may not want to federate with Barcelona. However, there needs to also be a means for Barcelona users to encounter content outside Barcelona.
   
   Perhaps there needs to be "lobby" servers that help Barcelona users enter the greater Fediverse -- helping them make the switch beyond Meta.

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 03:17:12 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • ophiocephalic 🐍

     @ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social If the Fediverse is not meant to replace Big Social, what's the point? You can always return to Diaspora where interoperability doesn't matter, and everyone is cocooned from anything that diverges from Diaspora.

   • Embed this notice
     ophiocephalic 🐍 (ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 03:17:13 JST ophiocephalic 🐍

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet
     "The most critical problem is that Meta users need to migrate away from Meta-owned social networks"

     Disagree. No one appointed us to be the saviors of the lost souls of Meta. The fediverse should collectively be concerned with its own survival. And individually, many of us are concerned with the integrity of our own communications, which we refuse to allow Zuckerberg to assimilate for surveillance and AI ingestion.

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 03:33:23 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • PJ Coffey

     @Homebrewandhacking@mastodon.ie Again, I maintain that freedom of association is important and block as you see fit.
     
     But the majority of people who use Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp are not Nazis. In fact, many are from marginalized communities.
     
     My very Asian wife uses Facebook every day. She is not a Nazi. I know this because she's married me.
     
     I would like her to move from Facebook but so far, this has proved challenging because the value of Facebook is her social graph. So far, the only one she knows who uses the Fediverse is me.
     
     But this brings up another important value regarding the Fediverse. Moving here would, in theory, provide her with a safer community.

   • Embed this notice
     PJ Coffey (homebrewandhacking@mastodon.ie)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 03:33:25 JST PJ Coffey

     in reply to

     • John Gruber

     @atomicpoet @gruber

     "More ways to kill a cat then choking it with butter."

     The problem is going to be one of moderation and volume. Some servers are very robust and have fairly low risk populations.

     I guess it depends on how "compulsory" Barcelona adoption is and how Meta intends to fund it.

     Whilst brands aren't enjoying pinkwashing as much atm, they still don't want to appear next to swastikas and slurs.

   • Embed this notice
     matthieu_xyz@calckey.social's status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 03:33:59 JST matthieu_xyz

     in reply to

     • John Gruber

     @atomicpoet @gruber@mastodon.social "Why does this post show reels? And why can't I do the same?"THIS, but also don’t just focus on features, focus on content moderation too. On pixelfeeds photographs don’t have to cover the tits of their nude models. But also disinformation and nazi shit don’t stay online.
     
     Actually a MUCH MUCH better headline wouldn’t be "open-source zealots banned Meta", but instead "Meta blocked a bunch of mastodon instances because of nudity" or "Meta put a filter to hide all NSFW content from the fediverse"
     
     In the view of the public, the one doing the censoring is the bad guy, let Meta be the bad guy, as they try to fight against all forms of artistic nudity.

     Chris Trottier likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 03:37:30 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • LAUREN

     @noondlyt@mstdn.social I'm not saying "bend the knee". Quite the opposite. Block as you see fit.
     
     What I am saying is that we need to be conscientious and strategic about how we handle #Barcelona.
     
     Fediblock is not the magical cure-all panacea for everything that ails the Fediverse. There are more options beyond Fediblock.
     
     My suggestion isn't Fediblock nor is it to "bend the knee". It is to allow for "lobby" servers that interact with Barcelona.

   • Embed this notice
     LAUREN (noondlyt@mstdn.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 03:37:31 JST LAUREN

     in reply to

     • John Gruber

     @atomicpoet @gruber
     So bend the knee to try and save people who, so far, have not seen enough wrong with the platform they are using to be motivated to leave it? No. That is a bad idea on several levels and does not take into account exposure to the very same people that we all left behind to come to the fediverse. Forget the numbers. The only people that care about numbers are those looking to profit. I as an individual on the fediverse have every intention of blocking anything Meta related.

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 04:27:43 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • John Gruber
     • SFaulken

     @sfalken@mastodon.naturalorder.me @gruber@mastodon.social I'm using #Calckey right now. Check the domain of my account. Look at us, we're interacting.

   • Embed this notice
     SFaulken (sfalken@mastodon.naturalorder.me)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 04:28:06 JST SFaulken

     in reply to

     • John Gruber

     @atomicpoet @gruber I'll be honest, I consider myself a relatively clued-in citizen of the internet, and I run my own Mastodon instance, and I'm still baffled about about what "ActivityPub" actually is, or how Misskey, Calckey, Mastodon, Pixelfed, Friendica, and Peertube interact with each other, or even if they do or not, or how you would go about interacting with somebody on Calckey, from an account on a Mastodon instance.

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 04:48:06 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • dudleytribune
     • John Gruber
     • SFaulken

     @sfalken@mastodon.naturalorder.me @dudleytribune@libranet.de @gruber@mastodon.social This is indeed correct. You would see the core message from Calckey, but there's other things that Mastodon simply doesn't display. Emoji reactions, for example.

   • Embed this notice
     SFaulken (sfalken@mastodon.naturalorder.me)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 04:48:17 JST SFaulken

     in reply to

     • dudleytribune
     • John Gruber

     @dudleytribune @atomicpoet @gruber Right, so as a user on a Mastodon instance, I'm assuming that there's some content that might be published by calckey, that I don't get, I'm assuming, because Mastodon just doesn't *do* that (whatever *that* is), if I were following a calckey user?

   • Embed this notice
     dudleytribune (dudleytribune@libranet.de)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 04:48:19 JST dudleytribune

     in reply to

     • John Gruber
     • SFaulken

     @gruber @sfalken This account is on Friendica.
     All posts get dumped into the fediverse where the other servers can accept them for display.
     I believe it is based on a mail server model where messages can go through multiple servers.

     One thing I don't understand is channels on calckey. Are messages.on a calckey server only accessible to other users on that server, or via ANY calckey server?

     Similarly with groups. They look like you can add folk from any instance, but people on, for instance, mastodonapp.uk never receive any invite or notification.

     @atomicpoet any ideas?

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 04:48:52 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • LAUREN

     @noondlyt@mstdn.social Nothing prevents data harvesting and scraping from Barcelona. Not even Fediblock.

   • Embed this notice
     LAUREN (noondlyt@mstdn.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 04:48:53 JST LAUREN

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet
     Would this prevent data harvesting and scraping from Barcelona?

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 04:49:44 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • dudleytribune
     • John Gruber
     • SFaulken

     @dudleytribune@libranet.de @gruber@mastodon.social @sfalken@mastodon.naturalorder.me Calckey's channels have yet to federate. But that is on the road map.

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 05:04:14 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • LAUREN

     @noondlyt@mstdn.social You don’t know what #Barcelona will be or how it will function.
     
     But on the off chance that it federates, I would like to build an off-ramp from it.
     
     You can assume that people from Meta-owned social networks will never leave them. To which I say: challenge accepted!
     
     Again, block whatever and whoever you see fit. But my aim is to help migration, not kneecap it.

   • Embed this notice
     LAUREN (noondlyt@mstdn.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 05:04:15 JST LAUREN

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet
     Barcelona will be federated packaged facebook. Those who are on facebook and using it as their primary social media are not going to spread out into the fediverse. Meta won't allow the dollar signs to go wandering away. This is why the technical community needs to understand the societal implications. This is why twitter will retain the majority of its users. It is about the culture not the technology or federation.

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 05:08:18 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • LAUREN

     @noondlyt@mstdn.social I have considered that, which is why https://calckey.social has 7 moderators despite having less than 2,000 accounts.

   • Embed this notice
     LAUREN (noondlyt@mstdn.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 05:08:19 JST LAUREN

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet
     Also, you aren't taking into consideration the extraordinary amount of moderation that existing admins are going to have to deal with. The amount of toxicity that will be coming over from Facebook is going to be overwhelming. this would be a deterrent to running a server, thus reducing options in the Fediverse.

   • Embed this notice
     matthieu_xyz@calckey.social's status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 05:26:13 JST matthieu_xyz

     in reply to

     • Oblomov

     @oblomov@sociale.network @atomicpoet@calckey.social
     
     1/ The point of EEE is to grow from the fediverse by siphoning it. But how is that going to work? WHO would ever drop mastodon to join Meta?? Meta doesn’t even need to siphon anything, they have 1 Billion users already. The 1.2M of monthly-active fediverse users mean nothing to them. There is nothing to siphon.
     
     This is what’s going to happen: They give us access to the ActivityPub API, cool. They drop the access, ow too bad, guess we’ll continue without Meta. They cannot absorb 1.2M users when those 1.2M users care more about their values than about growth.
     
     Meta isn’t going to absorb the fediverse, there is nothing they can do to convince us to join. EEE cannot work here. It won’t work.
     
     
     2/ No, the journalists already know matodon. I don’t know if they’ell understand the fediverse, but "barcelona ≠ mastodon" and "barcelona is compatible with mastodon" isn’t hard to understand.
     
     
     3/ P92 is literally IG. Advertized as such, same accounts, same follower/following list, same blocklist/blocked keywords, same everything. Mastodon users will not migrate back to Meta. They can defederate it won’t change a thing. They don’t even need our userbase, we’re a dwarf next to Meta.
     
     The reverse is not true, we can drain a lot of users from Meta to mastodon/pixelfeed. Not all 1 Billion, but a decent amount and more than they can drain from us.
     
     4/ This is not true. A lot of people migrate out of mastodon. Alternatives are growing and draining users from mastodon to those alternatives.
     
     
     5/ This is a good reason to work even harder and make the fediverse an even better place. But when I see that bluesky is considered a good alternative, the number of features required to gain users’ interest might be actually pretty low.
     
     6/ This is an issue. I do not envy fediverse admins.
     
     7/ P92 is IG
     
     8/ Speculation. And even if broken, seeing a lot (even 1% is enough) of @ user@ not-instagram is going to get them curious. People complaining about broken posts will make them curious. People complaining about Meta banning nudity will makee them curious. etc. If we don’t federate, we don’t exist, if we federate we have visibility they can see us, our messages, our complains our struggles, our values, etc.

     Chris Trottier likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Oblomov (oblomov@sociale.network)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 05:26:15 JST Oblomov

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet

     8. P92 users will not wonder why PixelFed users have reels. Meta will make sure that incoming posts will be crippled enough to NOT show anything that may make them wonder. Again, even Mastodon often fails a lot in managing correctly inbound content —and that's not out of malice. Now image the same, but with the express intent of making the Fediverse experience as crippled as possible.

     7/7

   • Embed this notice
     Oblomov (oblomov@sociale.network)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 05:26:17 JST Oblomov

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet

     6. Even if these competing platforms worked as drop-in replacement, there still aren't enough servers out there to absorb a potential mass migration, and especially for media-heavy platforms, this is unlikely to change any time soon.

     7. Even if there were enough hosts, people still wouldn't migrate. Meta is not going to federate FB and IG. P92 is entirely separate platform.

     6/

   • Embed this notice
     Oblomov (oblomov@sociale.network)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 05:26:20 JST Oblomov

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet

     5. as others have pointed out, Fediverse platforms competing with Meta's FB and IG, even when reasonably mature, are still far from giving potential migrators all that they would expect. Think of how much people have complained about Twitter feature missing from Mastodon, despite Mastodon largely offering a _better_ feature set than Twitter. It's even worse with FB/IG vs Friendica/PixelFed.

     5/

   • Embed this notice
     Oblomov (oblomov@sociale.network)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 05:26:25 JST Oblomov

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet

     4 (cont) Unless you actively bombard them with the information, the fact that other platforms exist and interoperate remains a “behind the scene” detail for most, and often a source of issues due to subtle differences and incompatibilities between these platforms and Mastodon. If we can't fix this for Mastodon, we have no hope of making it work against P92, that will go to extra lengths to hid this information from the users.

     4/

   • Embed this notice
     Oblomov (oblomov@sociale.network)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 05:26:35 JST Oblomov

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet

     3 (cont.) FROM the Fediverse to P92 to remain in contact with the people there. I predict that federating will not “buy” the Fediverse any new user migrating off the Meta platforms.

     4. Interaction with users from other platforms does NOT raise awareness of the existence of other platforms. We see this with Mastodon now: a lot of people interact with users on other platforms and remain blissfully unaware, because Mastodon hides this information.

     3/

   • Embed this notice
     Oblomov (oblomov@sociale.network)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 05:26:47 JST Oblomov

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet

     2 (cont.) I can bet now on a number of “tech” article pushing the angle that “the Fediverse is Barcelona”. You think the Fediverse = Mastodon equation is bad? That's going to be a million time worse. And it's what Meta will strive for.

     3. I agree that people need to migrate off Meta services. Federating with P92 will not help achieve that. P92 is neither FB nor IG, it's a new thing, and when (not if, but when) it will defederate, it'll push a lot of people to move

     2/

   • Embed this notice
     Oblomov (oblomov@sociale.network)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 05:26:58 JST Oblomov

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet oh boy I have an enormous list of counterpoints. Hope you don't mind this getting split over multiple messages, I'm on Mastodon. So, anyway:

     1. the point of blocking #P92 isn't to make it fail, it's to prevent its usage as an #EEE torpedo against the #Fediverse

     2. Newspaper headlines will not speak positively of the #Fediverse either way. In fact, if it's let in, there's a high chance of it eating all the mindspace, because that's the objective:

     1/

   • Embed this notice
     ophiocephalic 🐍 (ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 06:37:59 JST ophiocephalic 🐍

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet
     But a Meta takeover won't result in the fediverse replacing it, it will result in the fediverse being replaced by Big Social

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 06:37:59 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • ophiocephalic 🐍

     @ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social By adding ActivityPub compatibility, they are conceding to us—not us to them.
     
     Now we need to get them to make more concessions.

   • Embed this notice
     ophiocephalic 🐍 (ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 07:12:17 JST ophiocephalic 🐍

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet
     Respectfully, I don't think this is a clear view of the situation. The power dynamic is much, much more asymmetrical than this would suggest. Unless we stand together in opposition, ActivityPub is about to become Zuckerberg's private property

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 07:12:17 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • ophiocephalic 🐍

     @ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social I know from personal experience that Meta isn’t nearly as powerful as you imagine.
     
     And I do oppose Meta, but I’m just choosing a different tactic.

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 07:18:56 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • John Gruber
     • :fluffery1:

     @fluffery@fedi.omada.cafe @gruber@mastodon.social I disagree. Have you been paying attention to the past year?

   • Embed this notice
     :fluffery1: (fluffery@fedi.omada.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 07:18:57 JST :fluffery1:

     in reply to

     • John Gruber

     @atomicpoet@calckey.social @gruber@mastodon.social i think we, the fediverse are forever going to be a niche, unfortunate, but the truth

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 07:50:42 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • FeralRobots
     • ophiocephalic 🐍

     @ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social @FeralRobots@mastodon.social Same way the IESA broke IBM’s monopoly on PCs.
     
     Same way HTML5 broke Adobe’s monopoly with Flash.
     
     Same way open Internet standards broke Microsoft’s monopoly with Internet Explorer.
     
     And this will be exactly why ActivityPub will break Meta’s dominance.

   • Embed this notice
     FeralRobots (feralrobots@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 07:50:43 JST FeralRobots

     in reply to

     • ophiocephalic 🐍

     @ophiocephalic
     No one appointed us to be their saviors, that's true. But I'd argue it's in everyone's interest for Meta users to migrate off Meta products. To the extent we can help them do that while fostering healthy growth in the Fediverse, I think we should.
     @atomicpoet

   • Embed this notice
     ophiocephalic 🐍 (ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 07:50:43 JST ophiocephalic 🐍

     in reply to

     • FeralRobots

     @FeralRobots @atomicpoet
     Except that I have yet to see any tangible explanation of how exactly it would happen that assimilation into the Zuckerberg surveillance system will somehow result in people migrating to the fediverse

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 08:04:32 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • FeralRobots
     • ophiocephalic 🐍

     @ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social @FeralRobots@mastodon.social No one can own ActivityPub. It is an open protocol.

   • Embed this notice
     ophiocephalic 🐍 (ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 08:04:33 JST ophiocephalic 🐍

     in reply to

     • FeralRobots

     @atomicpoet @FeralRobots
     We agree on this principle - which is why it will be a disaster if Zuckerberg is allowed to take over this protocol and its network. But we can route around this damage by blocking him

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 08:23:28 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • FeralRobots
     • ophiocephalic 🐍

     @ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social @FeralRobots@mastodon.social How often has EEE actually worked? Microsoft coined the term, and it certainly didn’t work for them long term.
     
     Also, Google has not monopolized email. I don’t know why you believe that.

   • Embed this notice
     ophiocephalic 🐍 (ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 08:23:29 JST ophiocephalic 🐍

     in reply to

     • FeralRobots

     @atomicpoet @FeralRobots
     I know I don't have to remind you of embrace-extend-extinguish. In other news, I'm losing the ability to communicate with clients because emails from my own domain are being rejected by Gmail servers. Monopolists turn open protocols into closed ones

   • Embed this notice
     ophiocephalic 🐍 (ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 08:30:18 JST ophiocephalic 🐍

     in reply to

     • FeralRobots

     @atomicpoet @FeralRobots
     "Also, Google has not monopolized email. I don’t know why you believe that."

     Every bounced email I get back from gmail while trying to communicate with a paying client brings me ever closer

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 08:30:18 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • FeralRobots
     • ophiocephalic 🐍

     @ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social @FeralRobots@mastodon.social There’s thousands of email providers, and nothing is preventing you from using them. Right now, I use 5 of them: Zoho, Outlook, Bluehost, Proton, and Mailgun. No problems sending and receiving with Gmail.

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 08:35:18 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • FeralRobots
     • ophiocephalic 🐍
     • Kainoa

     @kainoa @ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social @FeralRobots@mastodon.social I question those stats. There’s no way Outlook is only 4% of emails.
     
     And there’s no way Mailchimp, SendGrid, PostMark, Mailgun, etc. is a complete non-factor. Almost all the mail I receive comes from those providers.

   • Embed this notice
     Kainoa (kainoa@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 08:35:20 JST Kainoa

     in reply to

     • FeralRobots
     • ophiocephalic 🐍

     @atomicpoet @ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social @FeralRobots@mastodon.social I'm gonna have to disagree with this one, Apple and Google have an 86.7% market share on emails, making it practically a duopoly. Add in Microsoft to make it 90.9%.

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 08:37:31 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • Tᴀᴋᴀɴᴀsʜɪ Hᴏʀᴏ
     • FeralRobots
     • ophiocephalic 🐍
     • Kainoa

     @PeterCxy@comfy.social @kainoa@calckey.social @ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social @FeralRobots@mastodon.social Yep, I have way more problems with Outlook than Gmail. I hate that service.

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     Tᴀᴋᴀɴᴀsʜɪ Hᴏʀᴏ (petercxy@comfy.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 08:37:37 JST Tᴀᴋᴀɴᴀsʜɪ Hᴏʀᴏ

     in reply to

     • FeralRobots
     • ophiocephalic 🐍
     • Kainoa

     @kainoa@calckey.social @atomicpoet@calckey.social @ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social @FeralRobots@mastodon.social I actually almost never have issues with delivering to Google from my self-hosted mail server. Microsoft, on the other hand, seems to simply drop every single mail I send silently.

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     Kainoa (kainoa@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 08:37:38 JST Kainoa

     in reply to

     • FeralRobots
     • ophiocephalic 🐍

     @atomicpoet @ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social @FeralRobots@mastodon.social the problem I've ran into personally as someone who self-hosts a SMTP server is Google/Gmail blocking emails from domains they don't recognize. For the first 6 months or so (now 3+ years into it), I'd get constant rejections from Google for having an "untrusted domain".

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     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 08:40:30 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • FeralRobots
     • ophiocephalic 🐍
     • Kainoa

     @kainoa @ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social @FeralRobots@mastodon.social Okay, clients is a different story.

   • Embed this notice
     Kainoa (kainoa@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 08:40:31 JST Kainoa

     in reply to

     • FeralRobots
     • ophiocephalic 🐍

     @atomicpoet @ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social @FeralRobots@mastodon.social I believe the stat I pulled up is specifically looking at clients, since that's a stat that's far easier to track. I couldn't find anything concrete for server side providers, although I'd guess that the server and client usage are fairly analogous. https://www.litmus.com/blog/email-client-market-share-april-2022/#:~:text=As%20for%20webmail%2C%20the%20most,Mail%2C%20and%20Outlook.com.&text=After%20months%20showing%20a%20slow,email%20client%20by%20a%20landslide.

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     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 08:55:05 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • FeralRobots
     • ophiocephalic 🐍
     • Kainoa

     @kainoa @ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social @FeralRobots@mastodon.social Yeah, that’s what I thought it was.
     
     Let me tell you, I would love it if Meta had the same marketshare on the server side for social media that Gmail currently has for email.
     
     And Gmail’s marketshare is 18%.

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     Kainoa (kainoa@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 08:55:06 JST Kainoa

     in reply to

     • FeralRobots
     • ophiocephalic 🐍

     @atomicpoet @ophiocephalic@kolektiva.social @FeralRobots@mastodon.social it took a whiiiiile, but I finally found a source that isn't paywalled: https://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/email_server
     
     The top 3 providers (Google, Microsoft, and Newfold (who own a ton of sub-brands)) cover 34.9% market share, and the top 10 cover 47.5%. Definitely not as bad as clients, but still not great for decentralization.

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 15:20:42 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • LAUREN
     • Jon

     @jdp23 @noondlyt@mstdn.social What makes you think this is about “working with Facebook”?
     
     They’re conceding to us, we’re not conceding to them.

   • Embed this notice
     Jon (jdp23@calckey.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 15:20:43 JST Jon

     in reply to

     • LAUREN

     @noondlyt@mstdn.social 💯
     
     @atomicpoet@calckey.social what are the successful examples you're thinking of for other social networks, communities, or messaging systems working with Facebook?

   • Embed this notice
     LAUREN (noondlyt@mstdn.social)'s status on Saturday, 27-May-2023 15:20:44 JST LAUREN

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet
     Just be careful about who you are helping. It may not be who you intend to.

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 08:13:58 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Fediverse News
     • Jon

     @jdp23 @atomicpoet @fediversenews

     So, I'd start off with OAuth and OpenID Connect as good standards Facebook had been a part of.

     Open Graph Protocol (OGP) has been great for marking up web page metadata, also.

     In Open Source software, React is an example of a spectacularly successful project hosted by Meta.

     To bounce it back, do you have some good examples of open standards that Meta has participated in and ruined?

     Chris Trottier likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Jon (jdp23@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 08:13:59 JST Jon

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou
     • Fediverse News

     @evan@cosocial.ca Thanks for the response. What examples would you point to where communities have worked with Facebook on open standards in the way you're advocating and you see it as working out well for the communities involved?
     
     @atomicpoet@calckey.social @fediversenews@venera.social

     Chris Trottier repeated this.
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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 08:14:00 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Fediverse News
     • Jon

     @jdp23 @atomicpoet @fediversenews it sounds like you're in favour of keeping Facebook, Instagram, and other networks as silos.

     I believe an open social web is better for everyone. Implementing open standards helps everyone. Bigger networks have a lot more value for everyone.

     If you want a small social network, great. You have the tools necessary to keep your social horizons private and protected.

     *I* want to connect with people that I care about. It's not your job to keep me from doing that.

     Chris Trottier likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 08:14:01 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Fediverse News
     • Jon

     @jdp23 @atomicpoet @fediversenews

     So, part of the standards process is that we work in the open with lots of different parties.

     Meta is a member of the W3C and has participated in other standards. I and other members want to make sure they have the information necessary to implement the standard well.

     If Meta is implementing ActivityPub, I'd like to make sure they do it in the most interoperable way possible, so all our Free and Open Source software stays compatible with it.

     Chris Trottier likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Jon (jdp23@calckey.social)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 08:14:02 JST Jon

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou
     • Fediverse News

     @atomicpoet Here's @evan@cosocial.ca's post saying that the #W3C #SocialWG (the custodians of #ActivityPub) is excited about #Meta moving into the #Fediverse and "we're here to help". That sure looks like "working with Facebook" to me.
     
     https://cosocial.ca/@evan/110401846007395312
     
     But okay, let me rephrase the question in your terms. What are the other examples where #Meta has "conceded" like this and it's worked out well for the communities they've "conceded" to?
     
     @fediversenews@venera.social

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     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 08:17:26 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Fediverse News
     • Jon

     @jdp23 @atomicpoet @fediversenews

     I should also say that this isn't how open standards organisations usually work. You don't have to provide your open standards resume to participate in a standard. We don't look into your heart to divine the purity of your intentions before letting you come to a meeting.

     Chris Trottier likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 08:17:51 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Fediverse News
     • Jon
     • Joel Spolsky

     @jdp23 @atomicpoet @fediversenews

     Most commercial software vendors and service providers implement standards for commercial advantage - either to keep up with competitors, or to provide more features to their customers, or to undercut a competitor's advantage.

     If you've never read @spolsky 's great blog post about commoditizing the complement, I highly recommend it. It gives a great explanation of why commercial orgs participate in open standards and open source.

     https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/06/12/strategy-letter-v/

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     mike (mike@macgirvin.com)'s status on Sunday, 28-May-2023 09:07:42 JST mike

     in reply to
     Friendica is OK, but the best Facebook alternative is streams. Feel free to disagree; but if you're discussing Facebook alternatives, you would be foolish to ignore this very capable but also very different way of looking at decentralised communications and the fediverse. If the fediverse goes down the tubes after Barcelona becomes a thing, no worries. First of all it's unlikely it will even affect us, and second, if it does -- we've got options you aren't even aware of. We've been living under the threat of EEE for years and our defenses have evolved accordingly.
     
     Why should my opinion matter? I created Friendica.
     Chris Trottier likes this.
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     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Monday, 29-May-2023 03:28:31 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • John Gruber
     @atomicpoet @gruber im not sure what i wana do... I doupt that meta allows to migrate the account away... Blocking all their servers is an option after all