@ntnsndr wrote
> how beautiful it is to see governance taking place in this radical, bilingual, deeply grounded digital cooperative [#mayfirst]. I am so grateful to be a member both personally and through #Socialcoop

Yep 💚 MayFirst are so good at this, it's an education. Their jitsi space works really well for this kind of gathering too. Glad to know that they are financially strong. But also. . . requesting members to continue to recruit more members

JOIN MAYFIRST

@sam @Matt_Noyes @mayfirst

@thekitmalone
Maybe talk to @mayfirst ?

@bhaugen I finished reading this and thought of you repeatedly throughout bcos Harvey is not 'an economist' but a geographer concerned with space, material and life in locations on the face of the planet. Especially his careful representation of Marx on value - not a labour theory of value following Ricardo, and he never named it as such, just as 'value theory'. Actually, contains a value theory of labour!

Did you read this one by Harvey?

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@bhaugen 2of2
Repeatedly returns for illustrations, to 2008, subprime dynamics, actions by China, digital infrastructures, etc. Concrete (given how abstract Marx on capital and value can seem to be ).

I mean to make some clips for sharing, soon. But the whole is worth the read.

@jamiem posted recently on so-called AI. Check out comments too.
https://current.workingdirectory.net/posts/2023/enough-about-ai/
> the narrative that AI is poised to surpass human intelligence and make humanity extinct is a dangerous distraction that runs counter to a much more important story about “the very real and very present exploitative practices of the [companies building AI], who are rapidly centralizing power and increasing social inequities.”

Including @band @ckohtala
@bhaugen wrote
@mike_hales
Do you assume economic networks can be operated without being mediated by computer networks?

I don't beyond the size where everybody meets regularly in the same room. And even then, beyond the complexity of outputs & organizational relationships & work-in-process that can be manually diagrammed & tracked on a whiteboard in that room.

I lived thru the getting-to-be-too-complicated-for-our-whiteboard stage in several situations.
@lynnfoster

@bhaugen
I don't feel there's a deep difference in expectations. The complexity of meso-scale systems is beyond 'simple' representation. Some kind of computational modelling/mapping will be required.

I do place emphasis always on the 'social' (practical) forms thro which algorithmic models are built, populated, animated & read. It's the translations, between practical-world and model-world, in and out, that are critical.

Always the problem with Beer's sexy models!
@ckohtala @lynnfoster @band

@bhaugen
In those toots, many of the places where I say 'social practice' are places where your conversational machinery gets mobilised - eg Winograd-style conversations for action.

But that's AN Other computer-tool layer, so the same design-of-practice questions must get asked for THAT tooling too
- its algorithm-machinery aka rules
- its representations of data aka conversational inputs, its read-outs and
- its reading situations and consensuality
@ckohtala @lynnfoster @band

@bhaugen
WAY back, I recall a debate involving Mike Robinson, around The Coordinator, including a paper in an early CSCW journal, early 90s. I think he argues for provision for 'second level language' - basically an escape from the rule-organised Winogradian channel of conversations for action, into a free-text free-flow channel.

Haven't got that 🙄 All I do have is a working paper on 'representations' by Liam Bannon & him, from ECSCW'91
https://owncube.cloud/index.php/s/KQoKrc9EBJmT9YL
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@ckohtala @lynnfoster @band

@bhaugen
Access is fine 🙂

Your proposition looks fine too: economic and social media should be hybridised. So, I guess, economic interactions - and specifically contracts or formal agreements - require a participant to drop into a 'special' language space, within the broad space of the medium/platform/protocol. For example, using Valueflo.ws descriptions, and using CfA tags.

Folks do this all the time, in life? Sometims we talk tech, sometimes we gossip and chat?
@ckohtala @lynnfoster @band

Next I'll re-toot something @bhaugen wrote on coordination, which dropped out of the linear flow and lost @band
But not including oliphant, if that's ok?
@ckohtala @lynnfoster

@ckohtala@scholar.sociay
On non scaleability, thanks. I know Anna Tsing (mushroom) but not this.
@bhaugen @lynnfoster @band

@ckohtala
Tsing sadly, behind a paywall @ Duke U Press.
@bhaugen @lynnfoster @band

@ckohtala
Other paywalls too, except for Forlano. Ho hum, that's academic life... :-( But thanks for referring.
@bhaugen @lynnfoster @band

@bhaugen @band @lynnfoster

Ok, forking, back to the bioregion topic. For reference, the other fork right now (pattern language, modelling) has got to here https://social.coop/@bhaugen/110808706627756377

This Driftless bioregion sounds fascinating. Almost magical. Of course, bioregion organising is a whole further field for pattern language :blobhyperthink: Maybe it would be fruitful and cross-fertilising, if we talked organising, bioregion, commons and stewarding for a while, in this parallel fork?

@bhaugen @band @lynnfoster
OK I.ll try not to flunk it! I am a bit preoccupied though. Hi Bill 😉

@bhaugen @band @lynnfoster
Make a start on the topic, see how it grabs? But I.m not going to get significantly more headspace in general, over coming months.

Last time bill and I were in the same space was about '94 😳 The space was in Norway, being held by the WPT group at PARC . happy days.

@ntnsndr @camerontw
Well, that's news! Evgeny hadn't notified me that the work was now published. So *I* will be interested to hear my critical voice too 😳

I couldn't tell what way he was gonna go in the final cut. Myself I feel that VSM is just a geek fetish, in the post Allende context. Harder to say what it was as part of the Chilean anti imperialist struggle, in Cybersyn. But scientism is always risky, cybernetic scientism insidiously so. As a class politics, it was compromised in Chile.

@ntnsndr @camerontw @bhaugen
I find audio format a pain - audio & video both seem opaque, compared with the transparency (scannability) of text. I don't believe developments in so-called AI will improve things. Give me txt any day - except of course, it can make all the difference to hear the actual voice, or see the actual setting.

Anyway, all my files related to this Morozov/Beer project are here:
https://owncube.cloud/index.php/s/YjsepZKafAsjoLt

Audio, some transcripts, some email exchange.
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@bhaugen
I don't really have a perspective on Cybersyn the supply chain system project, except from reading the Medina book. The perspective I have (had in the 70s) is of Beer the cybernetician-modeller and leader in the OR and management consulting field, including VSM, and his methodological focus on computational and statistical processes vs social dialogue and organisation .

Sorry, no chunks of cybersyn 🙁 wisdom