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   Camerontw (camerontw@social.coop)'s status on Monday, 31-Jul-2023 02:49:16 JST Camerontw

   • mike_hales 💔*!?¿*

   nice to hear @mike_hales' critical voice in Morozov's Santiago Boys podcast - embarrassingly had not realised Gui Bonsieppe's role in it all https://the-santiago-boys.com/

   • Embed this notice
     band@octodon.social's status on Monday, 31-Jul-2023 02:49:00 JST band

     in reply to

     • mike_hales 💔*!?¿*
     • bhaugen
     • Lynn Foster

     @bhaugen @mike_hales @lynnfoster yes, i am very interested in such a discussion. (and thanks for posting)

   • Embed this notice
     bhaugen (bhaugen@social.coop)'s status on Monday, 31-Jul-2023 02:49:02 JST bhaugen

     in reply to

     • mike_hales 💔*!?¿*
     • Lynn Foster

     @mike_hales
     @lynnfoster and I are talking with some people who call themselves the Driftless Bioregional Foundation.

     The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driftless_Area is a bioregion that is increasingly becoming conscious of itself from the viewpoint of social-economic-ecological governance beyond the official US state and county governmental institutions.

     Would you be interested in discussion how such a region might organize and govern itself?

     I'm sure similar bioregions exist in other places.

   • Embed this notice
     bhaugen (bhaugen@social.coop)'s status on Monday, 31-Jul-2023 02:49:03 JST bhaugen

     in reply to

     • mike_hales 💔*!?¿*

     @mike_hales that's ok.

     Maybe we could have an interesting discussion if we focus on something that we might both want to do that might overlap some with, or glance off of, Cybersym.

     Or maybe Cybersyn is not worth discussing anymore...

     In my next toot, I'll suggest a somewhat related problem that we might have some fun with. Or not.

   • Embed this notice
     mike_hales 💔*!?¿* (mike_hales@social.coop)'s status on Monday, 31-Jul-2023 02:49:04 JST mike_hales 💔*!?¿*

     in reply to

     • bhaugen

     @bhaugen
     I don't really have a perspective on Cybersyn the supply chain system project, except from reading the Medina book. The perspective I have (had in the 70s) is of Beer the cybernetician-modeller and leader in the OR and management consulting field, including VSM, and his methodological focus on computational and statistical processes vs social dialogue and organisation .

     Sorry, no chunks of cybersyn 🙁 wisdom

   • Embed this notice
     bhaugen (bhaugen@social.coop)'s status on Monday, 31-Jul-2023 02:49:05 JST bhaugen

     in reply to

     • mike_hales 💔*!?¿*

     @mike_hales if no pointers in the next hour, I'll start wading into your collection of files after lunch.

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     bhaugen (bhaugen@social.coop)'s status on Monday, 31-Jul-2023 02:49:06 JST bhaugen

     in reply to

     • mike_hales 💔*!?¿*

     @mike_hales I re-skimmed some of the Cybersyn material and would like to look next at your criticisms. Have you put them into one or a few places that I could read? I have https://owncube.cloud/index.php/s/YjsepZKafAsjoLt but it would help to know where to focus.

     I understand the class criticism, and agree that the "model of the brain" is not a good model for human social-economic organization.

   • Embed this notice
     bhaugen (bhaugen@social.coop)'s status on Monday, 31-Jul-2023 02:49:07 JST bhaugen

     in reply to

     • mike_hales 💔*!?¿*

     @mike_hales thanks for all the text, I'll respond to some of your toots tonight and may expand a bit tomorrow.

   • Embed this notice
     mike_hales 💔*!?¿* (mike_hales@social.coop)'s status on Monday, 31-Jul-2023 02:49:08 JST mike_hales 💔*!?¿*

     in reply to

     • bhaugen
     • Nathan Schneider

     @ntnsndr @camerontw @bhaugen
     I find audio format a pain - audio & video both seem opaque, compared with the transparency (scannability) of text. I don't believe developments in so-called AI will improve things. Give me txt any day - except of course, it can make all the difference to hear the actual voice, or see the actual setting.

     Anyway, all my files related to this Morozov/Beer project are here:
     https://owncube.cloud/index.php/s/YjsepZKafAsjoLt

     Audio, some transcripts, some email exchange.
     1of?

   • Embed this notice
     mike_hales 💔*!?¿* (mike_hales@social.coop)'s status on Monday, 31-Jul-2023 02:49:09 JST mike_hales 💔*!?¿*

     in reply to

     • Nathan Schneider

     @ntnsndr @camerontw
     Well, that's news! Evgeny hadn't notified me that the work was now published. So *I* will be interested to hear my critical voice too 😳

     I couldn't tell what way he was gonna go in the final cut. Myself I feel that VSM is just a geek fetish, in the post Allende context. Harder to say what it was as part of the Chilean anti imperialist struggle, in Cybersyn. But scientism is always risky, cybernetic scientism insidiously so. As a class politics, it was compromised in Chile.

   • Embed this notice
     Nathan Schneider (ntnsndr@social.coop)'s status on Monday, 31-Jul-2023 02:49:10 JST Nathan Schneider

     in reply to

     • mike_hales 💔*!?¿*

     @camerontw @mike_hales oh wow, now I will download!

   • Embed this notice
     band@octodon.social's status on Monday, 31-Jul-2023 05:17:06 JST band

     in reply to

     • mike_hales 💔*!?¿*
     • bhaugen
     • Lynn Foster

     @bhaugen @mike_hales @lynnfoster i think the event had this title "Fourth Annual Symposium on Work and Practice and the Design of Computing Systems, Oksnøen, Norway, May 1994"

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     bhaugen (bhaugen@social.coop)'s status on Monday, 31-Jul-2023 05:17:08 JST bhaugen

     in reply to

     • mike_hales 💔*!?¿*
     • band
     • Lynn Foster

     @mike_hales something like this http://www.workpractice.com/wpt-fest/ but in Norway? (I did not find the 1994 edition...)
     @band @lynnfoster

   • Embed this notice
     mike_hales 💔*!?¿* (mike_hales@social.coop)'s status on Monday, 31-Jul-2023 05:17:09 JST mike_hales 💔*!?¿*

     in reply to

     • bhaugen
     • band
     • Lynn Foster

     @bhaugen @band @lynnfoster
     Make a start on the topic, see how it grabs? But I.m not going to get significantly more headspace in general, over coming months.

     Last time bill and I were in the same space was about '94 😳 The space was in Norway, being held by the WPT group at PARC . happy days.

   • Embed this notice
     bhaugen (bhaugen@social.coop)'s status on Monday, 31-Jul-2023 05:17:10 JST bhaugen

     in reply to

     • mike_hales 💔*!?¿*
     • band
     • Lynn Foster

     @mike_hales I'm not in any hurry with this topic. I started by responding to you and then thought maybe I could take it into another dimension.

     Do you think you might have time and interest for such a discussion at some more relaxed time, and could you ping me whenever? Or do you think this whole topic is not so compelling for you?

     Either way is ok with me.

     (I assume Bill is
     @band ? Do you two know each other?)
     @lynnfoster

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     mike_hales 💔*!?¿* (mike_hales@social.coop)'s status on Monday, 31-Jul-2023 05:17:11 JST mike_hales 💔*!?¿*

     in reply to

     • bhaugen
     • band
     • Lynn Foster

     @bhaugen @band @lynnfoster
     OK I.ll try not to flunk it! I am a bit preoccupied though. Hi Bill 😉

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     bhaugen (bhaugen@social.coop)'s status on Monday, 31-Jul-2023 05:17:12 JST bhaugen

     in reply to

     • mike_hales 💔*!?¿*
     • band
     • Lynn Foster

     @band altho I should warn you that I startted this thread to discuss with @mike_hales and if he is not interested, it may not go anywhere.

     @lynnfoster

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     band@octodon.social's status on Monday, 31-Jul-2023 05:21:01 JST band

     in reply to

     • bhaugen

     @bhaugen thx for the quick follow-up. can you send me the original toot? there was something about the wording there that drew me in, and now i cannot find it. (we hates computers)

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     bhaugen (bhaugen@social.coop)'s status on Monday, 31-Jul-2023 05:21:02 JST bhaugen

     in reply to

     • mike_hales 💔*!?¿*
     • band
     • Lynn Foster

     @band @mike_hales @lynnfoster
     I just added you to the distribution list for future messages in related threads. Will do the same for other volunteers.

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     band@octodon.social's status on Monday, 31-Jul-2023 23:43:46 JST band

     in reply to

     • mike_hales 💔*!?¿*
     • bhaugen
     • Lynn Foster

     @mike_hales @bhaugen @lynnfoster this topic is the one that intrigues me the most;-- especially in regard to governance and operations (coop-based? semi-autonomous work groups? ...)

     @mike_hales earlier question regarding social practices as distinct from engineering is also important and generative

     and regarding Valueflows (i have yet to read the linked items) my questions, now, are more like "What is it for?"

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     mike_hales 💔*!?¿* (mike_hales@social.coop)'s status on Monday, 31-Jul-2023 23:43:47 JST mike_hales 💔*!?¿*

     in reply to

     • bhaugen
     • band
     • Lynn Foster

     @bhaugen @band @lynnfoster

     Ok, forking, back to the bioregion topic. For reference, the other fork right now (pattern language, modelling) has got to here https://social.coop/@bhaugen/110808706627756377

     This Driftless bioregion sounds fascinating. Almost magical. Of course, bioregion organising is a whole further field for pattern language :blobhyperthink: Maybe it would be fruitful and cross-fertilising, if we talked organising, bioregion, commons and stewarding for a while, in this parallel fork?