Embed this noticepistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Thursday, 03-Jul-2025 00:39:06 JST
pistoleroWikipedia's fine; it usually sucks but it is convenient. But it was written during the Perpetual Now, and it's more interesting to look at contemporary sources. Before the establishment of the Perpetual Now by paywalled newspapers and shitty goddamn blogs that want to ruun 6MB of JavaScript for engagement farming, there was Usenet and public mailing lists and bulletin boards for discussion and because of bandwidth constraints, "publications" that weren't on physical media were on really lightweight text files. This sort of thing is easy to pass around, it's all viewable regardless of operating system, you have your choice of software. Searching through text and processing text, these are really well-understood pieces of computer science, there are standard tools for doing it on any operating system, and they are so well understood that when you build search, the first thing you do is reduce everything to text; this is the point of software like Tesseract. Even HTML is more or less serviceable (provided you follow Fielding's advice on document structure). But someone babbling in a TikTok video or some four-hour Youtube ramble, a paywalled news site, that's all huge, heavy on bandwidth, and most people don't have a way to view RealMedia videos, soon enough they won't have a way to view .flv files. Nobody worries about this.
I'm not saying this because of nostalgia or anything like that: it is interesting that for that period of history, we have very good records, but it's just that window. Whatever is going on now is all broken links and paywalls and a morass of content-marketing, right, you are at the mercy of major commercial search engines, which are opaque and censored and then further censored in a way that varies by region and then gamed by people trying to make some cash, blogs have to have these massive header images. So one era of history has this really machine-friendly way of recording itself and that was rare before and after: you can read code and text from really old systems but say the bulk of it, the heyday of text files, maybe the mid-80s to the mid-00s.
So I have been reading up a little on Operation Sundevil (I'll probably have some more things to say about it), having gotten interested in it after reading about it in old issues of 2600. If you are not familiar, in 1990 the Secret Service coordinated with local law enforcement to carry out about thirty simultaneous raids across 15 cities and seized BBSs, floppies, etc., but ended up with very few actual arrests, and there was a lot of rhetoric in press releases from law enforcement and it was pretty apparent that they didn't understand the tech. The EFF was founded as a result of a raid that (coincidentally) happened at the same time as the Operation Sundevil raids: Steve Jackson Games was publishing cyberpunk-themed tabletop games and the feds seized the company's BBS because they believed the tabletop game ruleset "GURPS Cyberpunk" was a "hacking manual", they seized half the company's material for their upcoming game (due to be published a month later). All of these independent public communications systems were scooting along, people were dialing in and sending each other messages and then out of nowhere, the cops showed up. The reason someone running a fedi instance should be interested in how that event unfolded is obvious; the German government just arrested that old lady for posting thumbs-up emojis at a joke about a news story. Do you know what it will look like in real-time when they start to *really* notice fedi?
Of course there's a Wikipedia page ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sundevil ) but the contemporary accounts of it are very interesting. Wikipedia is written in retrospect: what did the people that were There say about it while it was happening? Fedi actually matches the culture around the BBSs really closely, so when (or "if" for optimists) this sort of thing happens to fedi, what will it look like? Contemporary accounts of it give you a better feel for how it unfolds. People over- and under-reacting, how you perceive these things with the fog of war (so to speak) in effect.
So, here is a tarball of text files. Phrack is a phreak/hacker publication (was distributed on BBSs and still available as text files) and was one of the targets; FidoNet was the biggest network of BBSs and had a model that caused some really similar inter-board dynamics (read some of the old FidoNews, see if it doesn't resemble fedi instance drama) and they had FidoNews published periodically. Note that spelling varies: "Operation Sundevil", "Operation Sun-Devil", "Operation Sun Devil". I was generous with the grep and it is probably going to be a footnote rather than the main topic. But because they're text files, I could just grab them and use grep. (And, of course, this stuff is what got me to write that uudecode thing in awk: I've been reading these on Plan 9. https://git.freespeechextremist.com/gitweb/?p=uu )
I am below going to break one of my own rules; not an ethical thing but a "I really shouldn't". I try not to say "someone really should": I think you either do it or support someone else that is doing it but "someone really should" is terrible. I am going to be terrible.
And, kind of related, maybe there should be something like FidoNews for fedi: a kind of neutral publication that is independent of any given instance or project, information and announcements for people running instances or using fedi, open submissions, editorial from the staff, maybe interviews, maybe transcripts of the interviews in the Fedi Files podcast, something that people can download and have. It is, at present, easier to understand FidoNet's history than fedi's, because of FidoNews. Fedi has itself (good luck searching) and scattered blogs, and if I decide to shit some awful fedi drama onto the FSE blog, there's not an editor that will reject it: I'm the editor of my blog. That's fine for a blog, but a fedi-wide publication with a couple of editors, you know? I'm sure on the non-ideologue region of fedi there are some people that'd do a reasonable job, I'd be happy to help or send some material, but I am really not fit to be the editor, among other things I am too stubborn and I will spend my time arguing with people about their submissions instead of just publishing them (and aside from that, being the FSE admin carries some baggage that this publication shouldn't have to deal with). Tom Jennings (creator of FidoNet and main editor of FidoNews for most of its history) is on fedi and I would be surprised if he wants to be the editorial staff for that but you can probably ask him for advice (and probably should because I have *never* dialed into a FidoNet BBS but FidoNews is still an interesting read). So, sorry to "someone should" but someone should.
@p I think your concerns that the Fediverse will be attacked out of ignorance are overblown. Today's ruling trashes understand social media well enough, use it themselves, target it explicitly for censorship etc. etc. Describing it with two words, "distributed Twitter" gets the idea across.
@ThatWouldBeTelling You are picking on one conclusion I drew, one where I explicitly acknowledged that your expectations may vary. I will explain why I have these expectations.
> I think your concerns that the Fediverse will be attacked out of ignorance are overblown.
You have qualified it where I did not, and this looks like an assumption that the next war will look like the last one. I'm not suggesting that; I am suggesting that we RETVRN to text files for some things (but I don't expect that; people would rather shit disappear than that it fail to be "multi-media"), that it's better for the history to be understood, and that we could stand to have something like FidoNews. I also believe that there will be a next war, though I am not pushing that.
> Today's ruling trashes understand social media well enough, use it themselves, target it explicitly for censorship etc. etc. Describing it with two words, "distributed Twitter" gets the idea across.
There is a huge difference between understanding the purpose of a thing and understanding the place itself. You say "decentralized Twitter" to normies and they can sort of grasp how to use it but this does not explain the culture.
Normies, even clever ones, still have trouble understanding fedi. And there is a huge difference between a person understanding something and an organization understanding it. See the FBI article ( https://blog.freespeechextremist.com/blog/fse-vs-fbi.html ), or the "Hydra on the Web" piece where the German feds are frustrated by the "vaccine misinformation" on PeerTube, the censorship/"hate speech" researcher that scraped the hell out of fedi, the other government-affiliated probes. I've documented all of it that I have seen.'
Here are two videos of a person that was almost president. The first is part of a justification for ignoring the Fourth Amendment (if you doubt the depths of ignorance, just click play) and the second is her expressing horror at the existence of a *centralized* Twitter with no government oversight.
You have probably seen what happened to Gab, Parler, Truth Social, and KiwiFarms. Those were all centralized targets, though. There are openly pedophile-friendly instances and I suspect that the reason they still exist is that they will be the thin end of the wedge.
I am not trying to be alarmist; I am certain that it is better for fedi to understand the history. I would rather have an understanding and not need it than need it and not have it in either case. kamala_cloud.mp4 kamala_demands_speech_regulation.mp4
a kind of neutral publication that is independent of any given instance or project, information and announcements for people running instances or using fedi
I publish @weekinfediverse but it is just summaries. I don't write long articles.
>You say "decentralized Twitter" to normies and they can sort of grasp how to use it but this does not explain the culture.
As I have said in one of my past post, it took me bit to understand the culture around here. There wont be 100s of interaction with 200 people in your follow but few meaningful interaction with some account and you would have to go out and hunt them by actively engaging. So it is more like group of real friends, and you are meeting your friend's friend more often than in real life and that is how you find things you like rather than algorithm.
@Pi_rat@ThatWouldBeTelling Yeah, the shift from broadcast medium to communications medium is great; I like the communication part, the broadcasting part is what ruined Twitter.
@pernia and @realcaseyrollins next gonna go enter a book store and tell the employees that the books are all too long. I will give you both a full refund on the post and will try next time to, instead of using words, dance while lip-syncing a girl-power anthem in a video with a 2:5 aspect ratio suitable for glowing rectangle screens. hardtimes.webm
@p >It is, at present, easier to understand FidoNet's history than fedi's To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand fedi lore. The humour is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of memetics most of the jokes will go over a typical lurker's head. [...] And yes, by the way, i DO have a :niggacheese: tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. Screenshot_20250703_105946.png
@MK2boogaloo Well, it's fedi, like half the software authors are all the way in a trans situation; pedos are another matter. I don't think the trans thing is going to be topical, though if it's just stuff about the network and the code and goings on, announcements, news.
If you start it up, I'd be pleased to help out. (Like I said, can't be me running it or making decisions for obvious reasons, but I'm happy to send in pieces, I can host or host a mirror, whatever. I like text files but I get it if that's unpopular, as long as it's possible to archive, pass around copies, whatever. Like if you did HTML but used data: URLs for images, you could still have self-contained files. Obviously PDFs work but then you have added the job of doing layout and the files can get big; you might need a few people on "staff".)
Randomly selected samples of FidoNews text files. Phrack is at https://phrack.org/ and they are still doing text files, PoC||GTFO is mirrored all over, they use PDFs that are also zip files, and those are cool but they are kind of huge (the first several actually included previous issues in the zip file, so like issue 6 contained issue 5, which contained issue 4, etc., here is a mirror/index: https://github.com/angea/pocorgtfo . I don't know how you wanna do it; like you know the usual format is colophon, editorial, submissions, then announcements at the end, but you always end up having to adapt it a little.
And if they do decide to make shit up to justify raiding fedi admins' property, it's really the plain view doctrine we'd have to be concerned about. If they really want to get us, it won't be directly for the electronic activity or records, it will be for something else they see while searching. Something completely unrelated to the purpose of the search, but which can be found by looking in the places the stuff their supposedly searching for could be located or hidden.
The plain view doctrine used to be about accidental discovery, but in modern law enforcement, especially where it's political, it seems to be the goal, not the exception. The warrant is just a pretense to justify the right to look in where ever for whatever.
On a side note, I used to have just about nearly every H/P/A text ever made. Lost to time. But I was there when the lore was created.
I still have a hard copy of gurps. It's right next to my copy of....
> The plain view doctrine used to be about accidental discovery, but in modern law enforcement, especially where it's political, it seems to be the goal, not the exception.
To be fair to the cops, sometimes the goal when serving a warrant is completely innocuous asset forfeiture. :finksmug:
> I still have a hard copy of gurps. It's right next to my copy of....
@waff@Humpleupagus@ins0mniak Well, you also have a net connection. It's not quite the same as back when the shit was new and was the main means of having your computer communicate.
They literally sue the stuff (the res), not the person.
The "in rem" (as compared to "in persona") nature of those proceedings have always made my head ache. No matter the sophistry applied, it's like trying to shove a round peg into my square brain cells. It doesn't fit with any schema regarding due process.
And when they make it "civil" and not "criminal," it only makes it seem all the more fucky.
Have watched it, it's great. I also watched some of the uncut interviews; they didn't have Tom Jennings's interview uncut (have read a couple of other interviews with him and I've read a chunk of FidoNews; I'm a fan, this was a very good interview: https://plutopia.io/tom-jennings-interview-1993/ ) but I did watch, like, the Cheshire Catalyst interview and the Citadel guys.
(Funny bit about Cheshire Catalyst, he also appeared in the "Hackers: Wizards of the Electronic Age" video that was done after Steven Levy's book came out. It was completely surreal to see Woz and :rms: and :captcrunch: in the same room at the same time. I made a clip of rms sleeping through the call to breakfast, I have it somewhere. Video is on Youtube, there's also a recut that's less interesting but it's just completely surreal to see these people all, like, partying and being on bunk-beds. My ex looked up the cabin where it was filmed, she said it's now used for "retreats" for MBAs.)
> It won’t give you the same experience but you will come away with a much deeper appreciation. Really miss those days.
The documentary is what got me interested, it's why I have a local copy of all of the FidoNewses, etc. laid.mp4
@p@Humpleupagus@ins0mniak what's hard to understand about bulletin boards? you just pass a clipboard of announcements between households; each household is tasked to pass it to one other neighbor so it makes a full round not rocket science there
@hakui@Humpleupagus@ins0mniak It's not that it's difficult to understand from a technical perspective but that there's a culture. Like, I remember when no cell phone so you'd just stop by your friends' houses unannounced and if they didn't answer the door, you'd just leave; for people that grew up expecting everyone to be completely available at all times, this kind of thing is not so obvious because no one shows up at your house unannounced any more.
In the warez world, you had to contribute, so you'd get credits for uploads and could use then to download, unless you were moving so much swag that the sysop gave you unlimited credits, with the assumption you wouldn't abuse it by tying up the line too long, and stuff took forever to Ul/Dl. This meant you had to work and contribute.
There was an interim period between the end of the BBS era and the creation of webbrowsers / html sites, where we were using private IRC channels to communicate and park warez on unsecured servers. You wouldn't believe how many sysadmins failed to secure the user / password file, which were in plain text. It wasn't uncommon to be able to access that file over a simple telnet guest login. 😒
Even during that era, you'd have to demonstrate your ability to provide something in furtherance to the movement of warez (e.g. warez, or finding servers, etc). In order to gain access to "higher" warez channels. Warez0 was considered the top.
@hakui@Humpleupagus@ins0mniak I'm not *that* old. Sometimes you'd call to leave a message on your machine after you got back from wherever you were trying to drag them to, sometimes you'd shove a piece of paper in the door, "Jerry says that Piss Captain is playing an all-ages show tonight at The Weasel, we came to pick you up but you didn't answer." and then it turns out that Jerry was just retarded and Piss Captain was on tour in Vancouver so everyone ended up at the mall.
One of the guys I knew locally ran a two line amiga board. He was the manager at a computer store in the local mall that sold, among other things, amiga games. 😏
@waff@Humpleupagus@ins0mniak Yeah, I'm saying it's not really the same to use these things in $current_year as it was to use them back then. Like, using ed because the line was 300 baud, that's a different thing from just using ed because it's cool (it is).
I'm interested in the old stuff too, but we do live in $current_year. If I want to test a BASIC program on the Model 100, I can do that by loading up the emulator instead of dealing directly with the 2.4MHz CPU, so I have a completely different debugging cycle.
>using private IRC channels to communicate and park warez on unsecured servers.
Ha I remember those channels.
funny too because even if you werent in those rrooms warez still made their way around school and such. I remember trading and hoarding so much random stuff in the lunchroom and such.
@p@textfiles@Humpleupagus@ins0mniak@tomjennings English FidoNet is well preserved and documented. I’ve always been trying to grab whatever I can related to CFido, or FidoNet in the Chinese BBS scene.
The founders of most Chinese IT companies you can name in the last 20 years are all the former node admins from CFido.
Pony Ma held a big meet up for them a couple years ago in the Tencent building.
@ins0mniak@Humpleupagus@p@Alex_Fog@hakui Buy one with ROM 1 board most games work, I had issues with ROM 2&3 not running games like alien mind I think to copy protection bullshit.
@Humpleupagus@ins0mniak@p@Alex_Fog@hakui Company is shut down till Monday except for emergency services, $100 an hour 2 hour minimum charge. Now I need to dig out the old Apple2GS and play space quest in 160×200 resolution displaying 16 colors with fifteen-voice soundtrack as god intended.
> English FidoNet is well preserved and documented. I’ve always been trying to grab whatever I can related to CFido, or FidoNet in the Chinese BBS scene.
I wonder if it's an encoding/filesystem/etc. thing. iconv is *still* a bitch to work with, but old ASCII is just ASCII, old FAT filesystems are still legible.
> The founders of most Chinese IT companies you can name in the last 20 years are all the former node admins from CFido.
First issue included FIDOSONG.MID. This was peak karaoke days and someone needed a FidoNet theme song for Chinese karaoke.
Lyrics available on https://pastebin.com/raw/DwS04yk2 in case you are 4 bottles of 2gt into the night and need to impress your 50-year-old Chinese IT pengbro.
@p@Humpleupagus@ins0mniak To put it in perspective, if you the one of the 5,000 families in your neighborhood who had a computer, that 386 cost you 6 months’ salary in 1994. You’d have bought it in Zhongguancun, which was all dirt roads way outside the city.
By 2005, that same area was inside the city, looked as developed as Akihabara, and prices fell to where most university students could get both a laptop and a phone.
It even caught people in the business by surprise.
GB2312 was standard long before BBS days in China. It’s more that technology moved so fast people had a hard time seeing the need to hand onto anything.
However fast you think things moved in the USA from 1990-2005, it was MANY TIMES FASTER in China because it made that trip from nothing.
Home PCs were rare. People were usually accessing from university computer labs where nothing got saved.
@p@Humpleupagus@ins0mniak Interestingly, QQ is still going and doing better than it has in 15 years.
A lot of younger Chinese people are using it because with how many people are on WeChat it has turned into the Chinese BoomerBook where all your aunts and uncles are.
@p@Humpleupagus@ins0mniak Pony Ma’s main business outside his BBS was pager notification software. It would push stock notices to your pager in 1999-2000.
(His sister worked for the telecom which is why he could swing getting like 10 lines run to his house.)
There was this Pirates of Silicon Valley like moment that happened one day (Bill! The Revolution is starting without us!) where they saw suddenly everyone was getting computers.
It’s much better than it used to be. 20 years ago all Chinese IT was controlled by Microsoft. If Microsoft didn’t make it, they didn’t believe it existed and had any professional use.
With Alibaba getting into Linux there are a lot more paths.
But don’t bother looking into Loongson stuff. The Chinese Academy of Sciences is a joke.
@waff@Humpleupagus@ins0mniak ed is worth learning on its own (seriously!) because it is a cool editor and everything you do in it works as a vi command and almost everything you do works in sed. But if you're using a vt100, you will wanna use an appropriate editor.
You may enjoy top post in thread or have some commentary on Operation Sundevil.
> ill drop linkies that are already preprocessed if i haven't already
:bigbosssalute: Appreciated. No rush, I'm chasing lucre, hacking Revolver, studying for ham exam (took a practice test: as expected, nailed all the EE stuff but have forgotten all the FCC abbreviations and regulations, *almost* passed), and reading the stuff attached to top post.
@ins0mniak@Humpleupagus@p@istvan funny how things change. many 2600 meetings aren't at mall food courts anymore because malls are quickly fading to black. meets can be fun depending on what your idea of fun is. also depends on locale.
it makes me think of sbarro pizza and pacbell chicanery :-)
> You may enjoy top post in thread or have some commentary on Operation Sundevil.
aka season of the raid. likely you've covered it. i have some thoughts on it, but it's pretty long form.
> Appreciated. No rush, I'm chasing lucre, hacking Revolver, studying for ham exam (took a practice test: as expected, nailed all the EE stuff but have forgotten all the FCC abbreviations and regulations, *almost* passed), and reading the stuff attached to top post.
had the opposite problem, ee stuff was harder for me to remember (ohm's law in particular). but after several practice runs i sat and conquered. but only have baofeng and limited repeater range.
the cartel won't swarm you if you don't license. it's old tricky wives tales
secondary .doc is being uploaded to dembase. hopefully doesn't slow dcc down 🤖 🪥
@stelo@Humpleupagus@ins0mniak@istvan@jae The Morse Code stuff is optional. When I first got my license, you couldn't get higher than "Technician" without Morse Code, now it's like an add-on.
@jae@Humpleupagus@p@istvan@mint Its not gourmet but its like....fun food. Something you used to get as a kid that's comf to get once in a while as an adult
Wow!! LOL that's crazy! I had no idea. That's really wild.
At the time I had absolutelyt zero knowledge of anything fidoNet east of here (SoCal), other than someone who interviewed me for a japanese book (separate post).
When I moved to China you still had to buy IP cards to use at the egg shaped pay phone booths all over.
There was also the option of going to the “phone bar”. That would be a small business in your neighborhood that made a business out of operating a landline phone. You could pay the owner to make phone calls.
> yes the top post has no wall of analaysys. that should change.
If I have been indirect, I am soliciting your commentary or if you know of good accounts written while the events transpired, then I am pleased to accept pointers to documents. (If you have any personal commentary, I can wait for the parts that cannot be delivered over the wire.)
> some vecs offer online testing. would be worth checking out. at least for me easier to concentrate in my tomb.
Technician class is so basic that you can probably pass it without concentrating. It's equal parts EE, antenna physics, remembering band mechanics, and FCC regulations. Two hours reading and took a couple of notes, aced the next two practice tests I took. You might not even need the whole two hours. Kids get this license class, you really don't need to worry too much.
> If I have been indirect, I am soliciting your commentary or if you know of good accounts written while the events transpired, then I am pleased to accept pointers to documents. (If you have any personal commentary, I can wait for the parts that cannot be delivered over the wire.)
will see what i can do when i free up. most accounts of most things never go over the wire. that may change. unlikely today.
> Technician class is so basic that you can probably pass it without concentrating. It's equal parts EE, antenna physics, remembering band mechanics, and FCC regulations. Two hours reading and took a couple of notes, aced the next two practice tests I took. You might not even need the whole two hours. Kids get this license class, you really don't need to worry too much.
several posts up i mentioned i sat and conquered. just took a bit for me to focus on material. second try i studied and profited
@ins0mniak@jae@Humpleupagus@p There were an oddity in Belgium and Italy in the 1800. Married a revolver to a saber with a complex cup hit. Mostly intended as a cavalry weapon like all sabers.
There were some flintlock smallswords in the 1700s that gave you a little black powder single shot at the base of the blade.
@ins0mniak@jae@Humpleupagus@p Purely from a fencing perspective, you better fire that fucking single shot before you start fencing.
I’m looking at those mechanical parts and thinking about how catastrophic it might be if someone rode down your flat and hooked into the hammer (or whatever the proper name is for that part on a flintlock).
A literal explosion going off an inch from your hand in the bind is going to be a problem.
@pernia@realcaseyrollins You jump in the thread, one of two zoomers that were not tagged in the post but came to complain that it was long. Now you bein' pissy. You've been real crabby this year, man, plus you have been sadposting and that's new. Hell_is_full.jpg
pete was dumped by his ex. Presumably because he talks too much and listens too little. So, to take his ex's advice, he goes to a bookstore to read other people's thought as practice. He walks up to a clerk:
"mr bookstoreman, please give me a million page book of pure bullshit."
The clerk, confused, tells him theres no such book.
"Bummer", pete mutters. "I really wanted to read a bunch of horsehit".
Then the store clerk, who turned out to be Anne Frank's father, tells him: "If it doesn't yet exist, its yours to invent".
And so pete heeded his advice, and to this day has not stopped writing pure bullshit nobody reads in between selling smoke branded as software.
@textfiles@digipres.club@istvan@noauthority.social@p@fsebugoutzone.org Just finished watching the BBS documentary, now I know how to get laid. Thank you to everyone involved. Anyone has some cool telnet or ssh BBS recommendations? Perhaps ones with at least one or two regular users on them. I'm on the other side of the planet, without a phone-line, so connecting to phone-based ones will probably be too much work.
Is that why, in the rare cases where I talked to someone on a landline phone, it felt like a spotty online meeting call? I remember landline phone calls being good enough to at least hear the other side clearly, but maybe my memory is bad I thought. Do you really need to get laid? Turkey seems to have easier options. I'm married. Soooooo haven't explored the options Turkey provides. Maybe my wife and I should do so together at some point :p
Edit: lol I missed your attached link. I thought you were talking about something else XD
@pernia@realcaseyrollins I should probably tell whoever wrote that that I don't think reading the history is a waste of time, but I do think drama is, because one of those two activities gives me things to think about and the other is irritating, and more irritating because it is pointless, and that the constant drama that started about a month before the estimate is basically shitting on the sidewalk and then complaining about property values.
@p@ins0mniak@realcaseyrollins >(Evolving compilers written in their own language are careful not to take advantage of their own latest features.) lookin @ u, rust...