Johannes Ernst
We need to separate identity from servers in the ActivityPub world. It's time. I should be able to have a single identity and use it with lots of servers from Mastodon to Lemmy and beyond.
Then, various instances could reflect different communities with different people in them, different features and policies.
This also would elegantly solve the "instance selection paralysis" in @tchambers 's Deadly Fediverse UX sin #1.
Fortunately @benpate is starting to assemble people to solve this.
Tim Chambers
@wjmaggos @j12t @ricmac @benpate Do agree that we ned to play to the open social web's strengths and some of those strengthers are offering experiences that the big silos can't or won't and not just producing a decentralized clone of each existing mainstream platform.
william.maggos
@j12t @ricmac @tchambers
@benpate
I'd love for this to happen but we're also stuck in the stage of replicating corporate platforms, instead of thinking about what we can do that they can't.
#ghost and #wordpress are doing this by making the article an AP item, instead of linking to it from a post. Maybe lemmy and mastodon should merge. most people don't post videos so maybe they don't need a #peertube account. maybe it should function more like podcasts. same with #funkwhale and #bandwagon.
Ben Pate 🤘🏻
I'd love to know more about what you're thinking here.
I don't think we're replacing #Webfinger. I think we're trying to follow through on #WhatCorySaid at #FediForum (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_Gs1t0qe78)
...which is basically: Let regular people take their account to a new server any time they want, without relying on awful XML/CSV import/export jobs. This would go a long way to solving Fediverse UX issues and preventing enshitification.
Is there more that I've missed?
Marcus Rohrmoser 🌻
Hi @j12t @tchambers @benpate,
isn't #discovery without #webfinger (hostnames and dns in essence) a #fallacy and thus #centralisation in disguise?
I mean DNS is the centralised infra we prbly can't do without anyway - why not stand on that shoulder and not add another global registry?
Moving may be done via redirects (like IRL).
Ben Pate 🤘🏻
My unpopular opinion: I *love* making decentralized clones of corporate tech.
Historically, innovation happens in startups who take a risk and break new ground. So, let them figure out the costly product/market fit. OSS products ALWAYS lag behind the corporates.
We just need to 1) copy them one-by-one 2) expand their value prop with the unique advantages of an open, federated network of millions of existing users, 3) win fair-and-square in the marketplace.
Ben Pate 🤘🏻
I love this article, and can't wait for Part 2. It is right in line with https://deadsuperhero.com/my-dream-fediverse-platform/
I've been getting started on a UX hit list for #Emissary but there's only so many words I can type in one day. Perhaps we can chat once you've put your thoughts into the next blog post?
Johannes Ernst
Here's his post about the UX sins: https://www.timothychambers.net/2025/06/18/113327.html
Tim Chambers
@benpate @j12t @deadsuperhero Thank you Ben!
Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝
Ben Pate 🤘🏻
There was a great concept that came up at #FediForum - the identity of Theseus.
Perhaps it's okay if we have MANY identities, so long as we can reliably bind them together. Imagine `rel=me` links on angeldust.
Servers might come and go, but my identity straddles all of them (somehow, TBD) in a way that can be unified at the UX level by other servers.
Sean mentioned this in his article:
https://deadsuperhero.com/my-dream-fediverse-platform/
Johannes Ernst
@wjmaggos @ricmac @tchambers @benpate There are a variety of possible answers to how to do that. Before we pick, we need to understand the tradeoffs. And before understanding the tradeoffs, we need to have enough consensus that there is a problem that needs to be solved. Which is the step I'm trying to help with right now :-)
william.maggos
@j12t @ricmac @tchambers @benpate
but doesn't the ID live somewhere? I'd worry the people running those services eventually exert power...
I think we need servers based on locality with a shared set of proven rules most of those kinds of servers can adopt. and that server software needs to handle what most people want to do. most personal accounts are on one of these.
but of course this requires breaking out of the dedicated app/server concept we brought over from the corporate world.
Ben Pate 🤘🏻
I'd rather say:"rediscover the wheel".. the Fediverse is *excruciatingly hard* to navigate, and I'd love to have your help.
So there was this cool discussion at #FediForum. Nomadic Identity with #Zot came up, along with W3C LOLA and others.
So now, I'm just trying to continue the FediForum discussion and collect info about what's out there. I've promised the wagoneers on #Bandwagon that they'll be able to take their accounts anywhere.
So, is Zot the one true way to get this done?
silverpill
@benpate @pepecyb Forte implements FEP-ef61
Zot is an older protocol, separate from ActivityPub. It is used in Hubzilla.
silverpill
@benpate @pepecyb Yes, Mitra supports FEP-ef61 and FEP-ae97, the "nomadic" flavour of ActivityPub Client-to-Server API
Ben Pate 🤘🏻
Thank you. I’m adding this to my list. I read that you’re adding support for nomadic identities in Mitra. I’m assuming that means FEP-ef61?
That’s really cool, because it could be a starting point for my work, too. I’d LOVE to have another app out there to test with.
Evan Prodromou
@j12t @tchambers @benpate I agree about servers but I disagree about domain names. Domains are extremely easy and cheap to get, but our fediverse software mostly doesn't let you bring your own domain. I think it would be a lot better to work on BYOD for Fediverse software or even start a new hosted service that lets you BYOD.
Evan Prodromou
@j12t @tchambers @benpate yes. OAuth 2.0 or OpenID connect let you do that. Log into one server and post activities back to your own server.
http://evanp.me/2024/04/22/cross-server-interactions-in-activitypub/
Johannes Ernst
@evan Bringing my own domain to somebody else who runs a multi-tenant server would be very nice indeed. I can bring my own domain to most e-mail providers and they will run e-mail for me at my domain, we should have the same here.
I want to do one better, though, which is mostly orthogonal to this: I want to go to lemmy.world and log in with @j12t and post, on that lemmy server, while being identified by that Mastodon-hosted identifier. Otherwise nobody knows it's me!
Evan Prodromou
@j12t @tchambers @benpate we're thinking along the same lines!
Johannes Ernst
What I have in mind does not need protocol changes as far as I can tell. It needs OpenID-style SSO (Mastodon as the IdP, Lemmy as the RP in my example) into a local Lemmy account that can continue to have its own local identifier, but in the UX my Mastodon identifier is shown.
(I don't have a detailed proposal yet, but it sounds like it's possible, and right now I'm just floating a requirements to see whether anybody else agrees ...)
Strypey
@mikedev
> explore the fediverse and find out what others developers are doing and have already done in this area
This ...
https://fediversity.site/item/9f514756-42b7-4e3d-9a5e-2561fae9c8ce
... could have been a really useful contribution to the discussion with about 90% less snark and links to examples. Here's a couple of good starting points for work on portable identity in AP;
https://wedistribute.org/2024/03/activitypub-nomadic-identity/
Ben Pate 🤘🏻
I like the principles behind this. Don't fully understand the details of it yet. Let's talk this through:
I visit Lemmy and sign in with my Mastodon account. I like a cat video. Does Lemmy use something like the C2S API to publish the activity via my Mastodon outbox?
Sounds doable.
It may require a common, more well-defined activity schema than we have today, so that each server knows what is being said.
Ben Pate 🤘🏻
This would be a vast improvement to "FEP-3b86 Activity Intents" which is trying to improve inter-server UX without changing the protocols too much.
It would be a lot of new engineering for every project that wanted to participate, but worth the effort for sure.
We'd have to talk about how this works on mobile/desktop apps as well. So much Fediverse is happening OFF of the web, and it would be a shame to build a spec that gets this UX wrong.
Ben Pate 🤘🏻
https://www.timothychambers.net/2025/06/18/113327.html
Fantastic article. Should be required reading for all #FediDevs
Risotto Bias
@j12t @tchambers @benpate where's the sins documented?
Tim Chambers
@risottobias @benpate @j12t @evan I can imagine work arounds to make domain management pretty dead easy.
Risotto Bias
@benpate @j12t @evan @tchambers I don't necessarily think it should be based on domains. that's a barrier of complexity that signing up for twitter/facebook doesn't have.
make transferring or renaming usernames and transferring posts easier...
Evan Prodromou
@benpate @j12t @tchambers that's the idea!
Tim Chambers
Fu
@j12t @tchambers @benpate I mean that's pretty much how #nostr works.
Ben Pate 🤘🏻
@jupiter_rowland @mikedev @j12t @deadsuperhero @tchambers @rockmanjoe @tom @strypey @evan
Not exactly a reply to Jupiter's post, but since we're all here I'm looking for an easy on-ramp for developers to start getting our heads around *actually building* this stuff.
But specs, documentation, testing tools are all very hard to find.
There's an etherpad at https://emissary.wiki/p/Identity
I'd LOVE for you to fill in the gaps in my understanding. it would be a huge win.
I'll be serving punch and pie.
Jupiter Rowland
RockManJoe
@j12t @tchambers @benpate someone actually solved this years ago, check it out: https://solidproject.org/
Ben Pate 🤘🏻
I don't know of anyone who's doing subscriptions on the Fediverse anymore. sub.club made a good run of it, but I believe they've stopped.
So, nobody, right now. But the ecosystem needs this, and I'm hoping that many others will join the party in the future :)
Marcus Rohrmoser 🌻
Hi @benpate @j12t @tchambers,
ic. Paid subscription move sounds like an asset transfer. That's not moving curtains but vaults. You won't do that from akkoma to pixelfed but from paid service to paid service, will you? Who else but bandwagon is in that game? May GNU Taler help transferring value tokens? How shall the providers negotiate compensation? Similar to domain transfer (KK) maybe?
Ben Pate 🤘🏻
As a general rule, you’re absolutely correct. Keep expectations low, underpromise, overdeliver. And, there’s lots that’s out of my control, like how other servers will coordinate followers.
But I’m not just laying out a pie-in-the-sky wishlist. These are straight up business requirements for Bandwagon.fm that I’ve promised wagoneers that I’ll deliver.
And it’s not just “notifying subscribers” — it’s honoring PAID SUBSCRIPTIONS for music that fans have bought.
Marcus Rohrmoser 🌻
Hi @benpate @j12t @tchambers,
frankly I'd keep expectations at bay and not promise a smoother UX than when e.g. moving from Tiktok to Instagram. Or from WhatsApp to Threema. How does that work?
Keeping subscribtions and notifying subscribers would indeed be neat and should warrant a FEP, however.
Marcus Rohrmoser 🌻
Hi @benpate @j12t @tchambers,
oh, I see. I thought of near instant and frequent nomadic moves without a host-based identity. (Don't know why)
What do you think #WhatCorySaid @pluralistic means with "their account" - all interactions ever? With or without a time machine at hand?
Ask a sci-fi author and get a solution based on time machines. grr.
Jupiter Rowland
craignicol
@j12t @tchambers @benpate why would I want to share an identity across services?
I have friends who are geeks who happen to have Crohn's and family members who have Crohn's, so I was invited by algorithm to a Crohn's support group. Irrelevant but harmless. Why would I want the same identity across groups that would allow more spurious (or politically dangerous) connections?
Multiple identities is a feature, not a bug, despite what Google, Meta and the rest want us to believe.
Tim Chambers
@fuat2mb @j12t @benpate Even the best apps I tried still had big, big issues.
Fu
@tchambers @j12t @benpate there is no nostr UX though. Its just a protocol. Every client has completely different HMI.
Tim Chambers
@fuat2mb @j12t @benpate Will check it out! Think Nostr has lots to teach rest of the open social web.
Fu
Tim Chambers
@fuat2mb @j12t @benpate Tried many settled on this one: https://nostrapps.com/damus
Fu
@tchambers @j12t @benpate so which project did you join to try to make things more to your liking?
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