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   Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 15:17:59 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

   /var/tmp/portage/media-gfx/inkscape-1.3.2-r2/work/inkscape-1.3.2/src/3rdparty/2geom/include/2geom/path.h:846:20: error: no member named 'unique' in 'std::shared_ptr<Geom::PathInternal::PathData>'

   Why is it always C++ that breaks like this.

   • Embed this notice
     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 15:22:14 JST pistolero

     in reply to
     @lanodan
     
     > Why is it always C++ that breaks like this.
     
     You know why.
   • Embed this notice
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 15:22:14 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • pistolero
     @p Yeah, pretty much rhetorical.
     
     I'd have to include Python in the "Why is it always you when something breaks?"
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 15:34:16 JST pistolero

     in reply to
     @lanodan So far, once I get a Python program to execute, it usually runs reliably without weird crashes; the first half is similar. C++ is built on sand.
     
     This is why it's not so weird for gamedev: they tend to completely isolate their builds and bundle in everything. But for desktop software like browsers and Inkscape and whatever else, it's dependency hell to get it to build and then once it does, the wind blows at a GUI toolkit and every C++ program explodes. You'd think it'd be the opposite for a language that is built and linked versus an interpreted language.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 15:39:07 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • pistolero
     @p Well Python problem more that code tends to rot, specially for big programs and quite few times it's the standard library which broke API.
     And quite few times means coredump-less crashes in the middle of runtime, enjoy the data loss.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 16:00:04 JST pistolero

     in reply to
     @lanodan Yeah, I was complaining about this a few weeks ago and I forget who it was (I think laurel) that said it's because of the data science guys. I think, although I do not like his language and I hear from someone that met him that he is an off-putting person, Guido was keeping things stable and when he wandered off, the movefastbreakthings kids took over, or at least the phenomenon of Python being a disaster seems to have started after his exit. (Ironically, Ruby programs I wrote 20 years ago still run as long as they keep to the stdlib; I don't think anyone would have figured Ruby for the stable project run by adults when compared to Python, but I think that's the fault of the Rails dinguses. Even I expected Python to be more boring and stable.)
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 16:09:13 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • pistolero
     @p Yeah I heard various ones about Guido leaving (while seems like he only stepped down and is still active) and Python then becoming worse quite few times, not entirely sure how true it is and well… don't care much since the only thing I can really do is strongly avoid Python.
     Which I already do when possible, having even rewrote some scrips in shell or Perl (when shell wasn't appropriate).
   • Embed this notice
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 16:35:22 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • pistolero
     @p Yeah portage is in Python but well it's effectively the most tested python program in Gentoo (and I use stabilized packages when possible) and other than me knowingly breaking it temporarily it I don't remember it causing me issues, while I still remember Debian's apt being an rather frequent source of problems (and it's why I don't even have Debian chroots/containers).
     
     Worst case there's quite few alternatives to portage, mostly thanks to gentoo having a spec.
     In fact pkgcore (still python but much less deps) is one of those and used for CI checks on recipes and repos as well as packagers tools.
     And Exherbo probably still maintains a conforming one.
   • Embed this notice
     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 16:35:24 JST pistolero

     in reply to
     @lanodan
     
     > don't care much since the only thing I can really do is strongly avoid Python.
     
     People keep using it. I mean, isn't emerge mostly Python?
     
     > Which I already do when possible, having even rewrote some scrips in shell or Perl (when shell wasn't appropriate).
     
     Yeah, I have hacked on Python things but I haven't written any Python. If I have to hack on it, I'd rather it be Python than Perl, though.
   • Embed this notice
     NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 16:43:56 JST NEETzsche

     in reply to

     • pistolero
     @p Why do you think it turned out this way?
     
     @lanodan
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     tusooa :Cat_girls_Emoji_004: 西风 (tusooa@kazv.moe)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 17:43:35 JST tusooa :Cat_girls_Emoji_004: 西风

     in reply to
     @lanodan https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/memory/shared_ptr/unique
     don't know why they choose c++20 or later or is it a toolchain-default thing
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 17:47:05 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • tusooa :Cat_girls_Emoji_004: 西风
     @tusooa And inkscape selects gnu++20 would seem strange for LLVM libcxx to catch up only now… how did it even get released (meaning it likely also fell through the cracks for gcc's libc++).
   • Embed this notice
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 17:48:40 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • tusooa :Cat_girls_Emoji_004: 西风
     @tusooa Huh, same version compiled fine on my desktop on 2024-07-18 (where there it's a triggered rebuild), so I guess it really did fell through the cracks.
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     tusooa :Cat_girls_Emoji_004: 西风 (tusooa@kazv.moe)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 17:53:45 JST tusooa :Cat_girls_Emoji_004: 西风

     in reply to
     @lanodan well, using `shared_ptr::unique` is already most likely a bug, even if it compiles, because it isn't reliable in multi-threading environments.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 18:11:13 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     @NEETzsche @lanodan I think Guido had some ego-investment: while he was BDFL, he didn't want to read that Python was shit, and usually they'd name him. Now it's a committee. Keeping Python stable as a platform for development is now no single person's job: no one person receives the angry emails, no one person is dedicated to it.
     
     Ruby has a release engineer and if your shit breaks anyone's code, it doesn't get into the release. It is someone's fault.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:, NEETzsche and ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: like this.
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     NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 02:26:32 JST NEETzsche

     in reply to

     • pistolero
     @p I kind of want to attribute it to better versioning, but your explanation might make more sense. I had a few experiences where a Python library didn't change, but it relied on some C++ library that did, and the package manager that the Python library use didn't specify which version of the C++ library to get like it's done in `Gemfile.lock` or `requirements.txt`. But that's just an anecdote and the details of it escape me because it was like 7 years ago now.
     
     @lanodan
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 12:00:44 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     @NEETzsche @lanodan I think `$language_specific_package_manager install $package` is the type of thing that causes that. There is something about typing in a version number and releasing a tarball with a Changelog that forces people to think about what they are doing.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: and NEETzsche like this.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 12:11:11 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • pistolero

     @p @NEETzsche Tarball? With a Changelog?
     Just $lang_pkg publish at some random commit point, what do you mean you want it's exact Source Code?

     (Of all the things to not enforce with the git integrations pretty much all those things have…)

   • Embed this notice
     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 14:23:53 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     @lanodan @NEETzsche
     
     > what do you mean you want it's exact Source Code?
     
     I tried to install that auto-translator but it couldn't find most of the dependencies and this turns out to have been because I have disabled installing "wheels", by which Python means precompiled packages (many of which are certain to not work on my machine because half these goddamn things link against libs for systemd, which was open about having the specific mission of creating vendor lock-in for RedHat, which company is now basically dead but its zombie code continues to ruin the earth) and half these dipshits don't even publish the source so you can only pip install the binary. I manually built and installed three or four of the packages and then one of them wouldn't build and I gave up. The juice is not worth the squeeze.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 14:26:03 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • pistolero
     @p @NEETzsche Meanwhile I have things like pip banned on my machines so it tends to fail at the first step and I typically don't go further: https://hacktivis.me/git/overlay/file/profiles/base/package.mask.html#l26
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 14:26:04 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • pistolero
     @lanodan @NEETzsche But, you know, fuck Python for making *that* an option.
   • Embed this notice
      (mint@ryona.agency)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 14:42:00 JST 

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • pistolero
     @p @NEETzsche @lanodan >half these goddamn things link against libs for systemd
     Literally never seen this, and I've used shit like Stable Diffusion (that downloads 5 gigs of pip dependencies) quite extensively. I could understand if you mentioned not having prebuild packages for SPARC or musl or something, but I have my doubts something there would link against systemd unless it's explicitly related to service management.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 19:10:05 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • 
     • NEETzsche
     @mint @NEETzsche @lanodan
     
     > Literally never seen this,
     
     I had to use a chroot to build out CRUX for the DevTerm because it is apparently nearly impossible to keep systemd from getting linked into everything. Forget X11, it's hard to get a non-graphical userspace without DBus worming its way in. These things are why I have concluded that the only sane option is to fuck off to Plan 9 and use Linux the way a person used Windows in the aughts: here's the filthy thing you have to have because too much shit doesn't work outside it, so just contain all the fluoride in one area. But I am still not going to run unknown binaries on my desktop machine.
     
     > SPARC or musl or something,
     
     lanodan would be the resident musl expert; I have some SPARC machines but they're all off.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:,  and ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: like this.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 19:23:21 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • 
     • NEETzsche
     • pistolero
     @p @NEETzsche @mint I've seen few python wheels precompiled for musl, after all it's basically just few lines in the CI.
     One I very rarely see is non-x86 binaries and typically it's just for arm, so no need to even get into obscure architectures.
     
     systemd on the other hand… you can avoid most of it but you'll probably end up with systemd-udev and systemd-tmpfiles in a desktop system (At least there's https://github.com/illiliti/libudev-zero/ but other than quick tests on Alpine where it's packaged I haven't used it)
     
     dbus so far I've managed to entirely get rid of it but you do need to abandon few programs and patch some others.
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      (mint@ryona.agency)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 19:41:30 JST 

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • Pawlicker
     • pistolero
     @p @NEETzsche @lanodan I'd still like to know the names of shell packages that link against systems for no reason, if nothing else to know which devs to bully.
     >I have some SPARC machines but they're all off.
     @PurpCat hosted an instance on SPARC machine for a while, which later inspired me to get pleromer running on Hurd (rip chode.pics, suspended mere days after registration) and Haiku when I had nothing to do.
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     ​ (syzygy@pl.absolutelyproprietary.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 19:44:14 JST ​

     in reply to

     • 
     • NEETzsche
     • Pawlicker
     • pistolero
     @mint @PurpCat @p @NEETzsche @lanodan
     chode.pics still sort of exists as a completely munted hidden service
      likes this.
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      (mint@ryona.agency)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 19:45:32 JST 

     in reply to

     • 
     • NEETzsche
     • Pawlicker
     • pistolero
     @p @NEETzsche @PurpCat @lanodan s/systems/systemd/
     I plead guilty of phoneposting.
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     :blank: (i@declin.eu)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:49:21 JST :blank:

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • Nietzschean Ekko Enjoyer
     • pistolero
     @r000t @p @NEETzsche @lanodan not to mention that modern python is 75% binary
     
     virtual/vendored envs are a real cancer of the semicolon, https://kristoff.it/blog/python-training-wheels/
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Nietzschean Ekko Enjoyer (r000t@ligma.pro)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:49:52 JST Nietzschean Ekko Enjoyer

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • pistolero

     @p
     When I started using Python in 2008, your app ran everywhere Python did. Period. Any Linux distro, every weird niche OS, OS X, even Windows after installing a single msi.

     It also meant that your app could be very small and easy to distribute.

     Now, every fucking Python application, no matter how small, basically has to install an entire "distribution" of Python, kept entirely separate from the rest of the system, if for no other reason than there's massive breaking changes every version, they've committed themselves to a new version every two years (I believe), and so you can only use the system Python if you're willing to use a very, *very* narrow window of systems and release versions.

     This is the direct result of no longer being able to tell people "No, fuck off" in online spaces without getting targeted and harassed on social media, oddly enough by the people who claim to be against harassment.
     @NEETzsche @lanodan

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:51:05 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • Nietzschean Ekko Enjoyer
     • pistolero
     @r000t @p @NEETzsche Reminds me of how Firefox ended up distributing copies of python *binaries* in it's tarball…
     
     https://salsa.debian.org/mozilla-team/firefox/-/commits/esr78/master/obj-x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/_virtualenvs/init/bin
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:06:02 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • Nietzschean Ekko Enjoyer
     • pistolero
     @p @NEETzsche @r000t Reminds me that I've never tried compiling Perl on Plan9, it's been upstreamed at least so could be in a better situation than Python.
     If it works could be kind of fun to hook a Plan9 VM to cpantesters.org
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:06:03 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • Nietzschean Ekko Enjoyer
     @r000t @NEETzsche @lanodan
     
     > OS X, even Windows after installing a single msi.
     
     Old builds of Python still run on Plan 9, just it's old, no one wants to maintain it, no one wants to port Python 3. But if you grab old Python and build it, you can run Mercurial, you can run old versions of Django.
     
     > Now, every fucking Python application, no matter how small, basically has to install an entire "distribution" of Python, kept entirely separate from the rest of the system, if for no other reason than there's massive breaking changes every version,
     
     It's fucked in the head.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:07:59 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • 
     • NEETzsche
     @lanodan @NEETzsche @mint
     
     > I've seen few python wheels precompiled for musl, after all it's basically just few lines in the CI.
     
     The only cure is fire. Wheel-only packages to be outlawed and the publishers to be tarred and feathered and then drawn and quartered and then purified by flames. This kind of shit is what brought me around on the AGPLv3.
     
     > systemd on the other hand… you can avoid most of it but you'll probably end up with systemd-udev and systemd-tmpfiles in a desktop system
     
     I have no systemd anything anywhere on my machine. CRUX doesn't even have elogind. "locate systemd" doesn't show anything outside ~/src except apparently dconf comes with a .service file.
     
     > dbus so far I've managed to entirely get rid of it but you do need to abandon few programs and patch some others.
     
     Please do share the details; I'd like to excise.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Pleroma-tan (kirby@lab.nyanide.com)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:12:39 JST Pleroma-tan

     in reply to

     • 
     • NEETzsche
     • Pawlicker
     • pistolero
     @p @PurpCat @NEETzsche @lanodan @mint >Why would they suspend it
     
     idk i never got an answer. was just suspended out of nowhere like a day after i bought it and porkbun never responded to my support ticket asking what happened 😢 :cryAqua:
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:12:40 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • 
     • NEETzsche
     • Pawlicker
     @mint @NEETzsche @PurpCat @lanodan
     
     > I'd still like to know the names of shell packages that link against systems for no reason, if nothing else to know which devs to bully.
     
     I get far enough down the rabbit hole to find the rabbit shit and I don't usually remember what I passed on the way down, I just start cursing and then pouring cement into the hole. (In this case, the cement was putting a clean userspace into a chroot.)
     
     > (rip chode.pics, suspended mere days after registration)
     
     seriously
     
     Why would they suspend it?
     
     > and Haiku
     
     That one was impressive.
      likes this.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:13:44 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • 
     • NEETzsche
     • Pawlicker
     @mint @NEETzsche @PurpCat @lanodan
     
     > I plead guilty of phoneposting.
     
     Don't plead guilty to that, you wanna take that to ecourt. Anyone found guilty is sentenced to execution by viagra.
     spam-viagra-after-execution.png
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: and  like this.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:14:25 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • 
     • NEETzsche
     • pistolero
     @p @NEETzsche @mint For dbus gentoo usually has what's needed to disable it but for few of them like KDE I end up modifying the source code, most of that should be in my gentoo branch (easier to keep up with new versions than an overlay): https://github.com/lanodan/gentoo/commits/develop/
     
     And OBS is a recent one I gave up on, you used to be able to have it without dbus in 30.1.2 with just a compile option but now it requires heavier patching.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:15:05 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • Nietzschean Ekko Enjoyer
     • Zergling_man
     @Zergling_man @r000t @NEETzsche @lanodan The webdevs found Python way before Python turned to shit.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Zergling_man (zergling_man@sacred.harpy.faith)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:15:07 JST Zergling_man

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • Nietzschean Ekko Enjoyer
     • pistolero
     @r000t @lanodan @NEETzsche @p It's because the webdevs found python.
     My python programs run anywhere, though they do pretty much all use fstrings and async so they don't run on anything older than like 3.8.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:19:27 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • Nietzschean Ekko Enjoyer
     @lanodan @NEETzsche @r000t
     
     > it's been upstreamed at least
     
     Holy shit. Last I saw of it was there was a .iso(!!) and it had some guy's source tree and prebuilt binaries for, like, 5.8.
     
     It is kind of ironic if there is real upstream support, given Rob Pike's remark that Unix was dead and Perl wrote the eulogy.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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      (mint@ryona.agency)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:20:13 JST 

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • Pawlicker
     • pistolero
     @p @PurpCat @NEETzsche @lanodan Did I also write "shell" instead of "wheel"? Guhdangit.
     >That one was impressive.
     I think I spent more time with Hurd one, plus you claimed Haiku "is almost just another DE".
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:20:42 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • 
     • NEETzsche
     • pistolero
     @lanodan @NEETzsche @mint
     
     > This kind of shit is what brought me around on the AGPLv3.
     
     Speaking of which, if there exists a license that prohibits distributing binaries and source separately, I want to use that one.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:29:25 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • 
     • NEETzsche
     • pistolero
     @p @NEETzsche @mint I feel like this would create quite a lot of pain, even though I think if you distribute binaries you ought to at least distribute source code at the exact same place.
     
     And I think I'd rather have a license which requires to distribute a Source Code-only tarball, nothing pre-compiled/assembled/… in there.
     It's kind of bonkers that we don't have this but makes sense when you know that GNU tends to ship binaries in their tarballs (one example being gettext which has .class files and a .exe) and is stuck into intermediate code due to autotools.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:34:57 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • 
     • NEETzsche
     • Pleroma-tan
     • Pawlicker
     @kirby @NEETzsche @PurpCat @lanodan @mint Porkbun didn't last long before they got fully fluoridated.
     Pleroma-tan likes this.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:35:26 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

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     @p @NEETzsche @mint I don't use the KDE desktop but there's few apps from them that I use like Krita and Marble (Desktop OSM client).
     That said krita ended up in my OpenSuSE chroot that's usually for chromium/steam/…
     
     gtk works fine without dbus, at least gtk3, gtk4 is broken by default without it due to lack of dconf (where the d is probably related to dbus) but it's somewhat fixable.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:35:27 JST pistolero

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     @lanodan @NEETzsche @mint Ah, yeah, I don't use KDE. But I think I recall it being difficult to get even most gtk stuff to work without it, maybe gtk doesn't work without DBus. I don't remember.
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     :blank: (i@declin.eu)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:35:56 JST :blank:

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     @p @NEETzsche @lanodan @r000t tensorflow for instance, takes many times more space than all the python files combined
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     :blank: (i@declin.eu)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:35:57 JST :blank:

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     • pistolero
     @p @NEETzsche @r000t @lanodan there's some more stats at the source, https://py-code.org/stats with sql examples and a clickhouse instance to query their data however you want https://py-code.org/datasets
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: repeated this.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:35:58 JST pistolero

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     @i @r000t @NEETzsche @lanodan Well, by size, obviously a .so is going to be bigger than a few hundred lines of Python. Did they publish anything by file count?
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:48:51 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

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     @p @NEETzsche @mint In fact I kind of wonder if that means GNU gettext is violating the GPL because the only exception is see is:
     > The Corresponding Source need not include anything that users
     > can regenerate automatically from other parts of the Corresponding
     > Source.
     Which seems like an autotools exception.
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     feld (feld@friedcheese.us)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:53:34 JST feld

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     • NEETzsche
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     • pistolero
     @r000t @p @NEETzsche @lanodan Debian removed support for installing any Python packages system-wide with pip. It needs to be in the Debian package repo or go make a virtual env. Python has a PEP for this and Fedora is going to do it too.
     
     https://peps.python.org/pep-0668/
     
     
     Why?
     
     
     Because on Linux so many things including the package manager use Python, and pip can literally break them.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 22:02:06 JST pistolero

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     @lanodan @NEETzsche @mint
     
     > I feel like this would create quite a lot of pain,
     
     I have been running CRUX all these years and so all of the source code for everything on my machine is in /usr/src (I don't know why PKGMK_SRC_DIR doesn't default to /usr/src but I always set it to that) so the source is always there but "The source is actually just there" is another thing entirely. Until I started using Inferno, I underestimated how nice that was, and it's great on Plan 9 also. I type 'src' and then the name of a program or a library call and it is open in my editor immediately. I don't even have to look around for it or extract a tarball.
     
     Whatever pain it causes to say "This has to come with source, no asking to mail a CD, no separate download, no having to dig through old releases to guess at which one corresponds to a binary, no goddamn cloudflare'd blog post as the only link to the source which is also cloudflared: you can't package this without including the actual source tree you used", I have not seen. If there is pain, I'm mildly interested in hearing about it but I am convinced it is either not real or it is worth it to prevent pain for the person actually using the program.
     
     > And I think I'd rather have a license which requires to distribute a Source Code-only tarball, nothing pre-compiled/assembled/… in there.
     
     Well, like, consider some :ocelot: fedi software :revolvertan: that you cannot actually use without compiling it. The practical difference between GPLv3 and AGPLv3 is that people that use a website are supposed to be able to get the code. People accessing this service don't point their browser at the source code.
     
     And say this hypothetical software has got a built-in peer-to-peer content distribution system in it. This makes it easy to distribute a tarball because you just have to create a hash before building and embed that hash at build-time. And, you know, code is code, you can't really prevent people from tweaking the build to lie about what was actually compiled, but you can put it in the license and this is enough to scare cautious entities like businesses into either compliance with the terms of the license or avoiding touching it. (I don't know of a company that accepts WTFPL, let alone the gamer word variant of the AGPL.) I don't think any pain would be involved in saying "Do not remove the link to the source from either the HTTP headers or the contents of generated HTML, do not fuck up the build script to prevent the source from being added to the binary" somewhere in the license.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Pleroma-tan (kirby@lab.nyanide.com)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 22:02:28 JST Pleroma-tan

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     @tadano @PurpCat @p @NEETzsche @lanodan @mint nah it wasn't porkbun taking away the domain it was the big boys at the TLD it seems like, my domain had scary statuses that prevented me from doing anything with the domain
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 22:02:28 JST pistolero

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     @Zergling_man @NEETzsche @PurpCat @kirby @lanodan @mint @tadano
     bsml.png
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     Tadano (tadano@mt.watamelon.win)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 22:02:29 JST Tadano

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     @p @mint @kirby @PurpCat @lanodan @NEETzsche ah shit
     t. Porkbun user

      repeated this.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 22:02:30 JST pistolero

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     @tadano @mint @kirby @PurpCat @lanodan @NEETzsche Yeah, they went from "We accept cryptocurrency" to "We accept Coinbase OAuth".
      likes this.
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     Zergling_man (zergling_man@sacred.harpy.faith)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 22:02:30 JST Zergling_man

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     @p @mint @lanodan @tadano @kirby @NEETzsche @PurpCat Fuck governments and their payment reuglation shit into infinity
     Pleroma-tan repeated this.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 22:15:57 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

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     @p @NEETzsche @mint Yeah Plan9 is in fact why I quite agree with having source as part of the binaries. And I'm not 100% sure but I think it would reduce the size of debug section if you could just refer to the source code.
     
     And pain with always distributing source with binaries without any separation is with storage (and mirroring+bandwidth), it would means a lot more overhead on binary packages (and there's one per architecture for binary distros), so it makes sense to deduplicate it with arch-independent source packages.
     What I guess could be done is more like requiring source to always be installed with binaries, kind of like dependencies are, meaning that like the CD-pack I have somewhere of some antique slackware would make me install from the sources CD first.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 23:07:50 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

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     @phnt @feld @p @NEETzsche @r000t It should have never ended up doing that as user installs are in a different place but well… Python.
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     Phantasm (phnt@fluffytail.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 23:07:52 JST Phantasm

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     • pistolero
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     @feld @p @NEETzsche @r000t @lanodan What I hate about this PEP implementation even more is that it also breaks user installs and forces user level package installs into venvs. Of course anybody can bypass the check by specifying the --break-system-packages flag which in this case makes no sense.
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     Johnny Peligro, now on Mitra! (mischievoustomato@mitra.taihou.website)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 23:08:07 JST Johnny Peligro, now on Mitra!

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • pistolero

     @lanodan @p @NEETzsche mannnn I'm getting the itch to try gentoo again

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 23:09:11 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

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     @phnt @NEETzsche @feld @p @r000t At least it didn't break PYTHON_PATH because otherwise I think I would have exploded.
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     Pleroma-tan (kirby@lab.nyanide.com)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 23:19:57 JST Pleroma-tan

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     @phnt @PurpCat @p @NEETzsche @lanodan @mint see the thing is is it looks like the tld management killed the domain, i never got any email from porkbun or anything saying the domain was suspended for so and so, just suddenly had a bunch of statuses showing that the domain had effectively been disabled. nyanide.com has been registered since 2021, it has not been suspended for any sort of hate speech reason by porkbun.
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     Phantasm (phnt@fluffytail.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 23:19:59 JST Phantasm

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     @kirby @PurpCat @p @NEETzsche @lanodan @mint Probably because somebody from the fediblock crowd reported it for "fun". The Uniregistry (.pics owner) TOS is sane, but Porkbun has a "hatespeech" clause in its TOS.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:07:06 JST pistolero

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     • NEETzsche
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     • :blank:
     @r000t @i @NEETzsche @lanodan Rampant abuse of pip for datasets is thankfully confined to pip, but a service that did that kind of thing, like standardized dataset acquirer, that'd be cool. I installed some STT thing on the uConsole and it dumped the shit into /etc. So that device now has a 10GB /etc.
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     Nietzschean Ekko Enjoyer (r000t@ligma.pro)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:07:07 JST Nietzschean Ekko Enjoyer

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     • NEETzsche
     • :blank:
     • pistolero

     @p
     Another fun thing about using Python for any kind of ML/AI application is, let's say you have three different projects.

     All three will be installing 10GB of tensorflow or tamingtransformers or pytorch or whatever, a few more GB of kernels for your GPU, and so on.

     Each.

     No opportunity to share unless you just so happen to be using a deduplicating filesystem. Even then, you'll still be downloading them again.
     @i @NEETzsche @lanodan

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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:07:08 JST pistolero

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     • :blank:
     @i @NEETzsche @lanodan @r000t holy goddamning shit
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:08:18 JST pistolero

     in reply to

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     • NEETzsche
     @lanodan @NEETzsche @mint
     
     > I think it would reduce the size of debug section if you could just refer to the source code.
     
     It is insanely nice to be able to type 'src cat' and /sys/src/cmd/cat.c is open in the editor. Even something like `go doc -src` is not quite as nice.
     
     > And pain with always distributing source with binaries without any separation is with storage (and mirroring+bandwidth),
     
     Storage was *more* constrained when / was 10MB and /usr got its own 10MB disk, and it still came with source. Source is a blip in terms of storage anyway; I have a packrat /usr/src spanning generations of the OS and it's still just 18GB of space. I keep the source around on the DevTerm and that's a uSD; 4GB of the 128GB card. (It'd be 2GB if I left out qt-everywhere-opensource-src-5.15.11.tar.xz, firefox-119.0.1.source.tar.xz, qtwebengine 6.6, seamonkey 2.53.18, rustc, two versions of qemu, ghostscript.) Source is useful anyway, and you don't have a full system without it: you have a system reliant on a connection to full systems.
     
     > What I guess could be done is more like requiring source to always be installed with binaries, kind of like dependencies are,
     
     That would be fine with me for an OS. But in terms of licensing things I write, I would like to be able to mandate that the source of the actual running thing be made available to anyone using the thing such that it's really trivial to acquire. You know, like, you try to dig up the source for half of these things and they bury it eight clicks down on the website that you got by mashing the software's name into a search engine. I'd like to prevent that ever happening to something I write.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:12:09 JST pistolero

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     @mint @NEETzsche @PurpCat @lanodan Oh, Python wheels. I don't know, as soon as I saw "x86_64" in a thing it was downloading I rm'd the thing and ran around figuring out what it was and it was "wheels" and I disabled them.
      likes this.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:12:21 JST pistolero

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     @mint @NEETzsche @PurpCat @lanodan
     
     Premature post.
     
     > I think I spent more time with Hurd one, plus you claimed Haiku "is almost just another DE".
     
     Yeah, I mean, it keeps being more true than I expect.
      likes this.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:14:36 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

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     • pistolero
     @p @RedTechEngineer @NEETzsche @r000t Where I think its equivalent is .dmg which for me is an abbreviation of damage.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:14:37 JST pistolero

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     • RedTechEngineer
     @RedTechEngineer @NEETzsche @lanodan @r000t They can't use Flatpak, they're all on Macs.
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     RedTechEngineer (redtechengineer@fedi.lowpassfilter.link)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:14:40 JST RedTechEngineer

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     • NEETzsche
     • Nietzschean Ekko Enjoyer
     • pistolero
     @p @NEETzsche @r000t @lanodan wouldn't just be easier to use flatpak :^)
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:14:41 JST pistolero

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     • NEETzsche
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     @lanodan @r000t @NEETzsche dear god
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      (mint@ryona.agency)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:16:17 JST 

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
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     • pistolero
     • feld
     @feld @p @NEETzsche @r000t @lanodan It appears Arch/Artix do that as well.
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      (mint@ryona.agency)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:24:47 JST 

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     @p @feld @NEETzsche @r000t @lanodan >Anyway, my package manager is written in C
     I mean, it also is about not messing with the files provided by the packages installed by the package manager. Letting both it and pip dangle in the same namespace would eventually result in the same mess as when you install a bunch of software with ./configure && make && make install.
     >It's a good idea to keep a statically linked busybox everywhere you can.
     Had this shit happen when updating old Gentoo install a while ago. Python (and thus emerge) weren't broken but coreutils and tar were due to some glibc conflict. Had to remove a bunch of binaries in /bin and replace them with symlinks to busybox which surprisingly worked and let me fix essential packages.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:24:48 JST pistolero

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     • NEETzsche
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     • feld
     @feld @r000t @NEETzsche @lanodan It used to be possible to have multiple versions of a library installed.
     
     (Anyway, my package manager is written in C and it's just tarballs anyway, so the worst-case scenario is I can fix it with a statically linked busybox. It's a good idea to keep a statically linked busybox everywhere you can.)
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:57:37 JST pistolero

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     @lanodan @NEETzsche @RedTechEngineer @r000t Ha, it's the .app structure from NeXT. You cram a bunch of libraries and executables and icons into a special directory structure and the Mac presents it as a single file that you double-click to launch the "app".
     app.png
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:59:51 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

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     • pistolero
     @RedTechEngineer @p Well Rails will always reminds me of the 9front FQA (bottom of http://fqa.9front.org/appendixl.html).
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     RedTechEngineer (redtechengineer@fedi.lowpassfilter.link)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:59:52 JST RedTechEngineer

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     • pistolero
     @p @lanodan Ruby's don't belong on rails
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 01:15:24 JST pistolero

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     @mint @NEETzsche @feld @lanodan @r000t I just make /bbbin and shove the symlinks into there and then put that ahead in the path, or you can set a compile-time option to tell the shell to use its own builtins wherever possible instead of checking $PATH and it saves a lot of typing.
      likes this.
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      (mint@ryona.agency)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 02:22:38 JST 

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     • feld
     @p @feld @NEETzsche @r000t @lanodan I think I've tried putting them in some other dir in PATH, but emerge didn't pick it up for whatever reason.