Evan Prodromou
So, if I were going to make a tech manifesto, it might be something like:
- protocols not platforms
- coops and unions
- technology should not actively hurt us
- people not users
- seven generations, seven continents
- free markets require antitrust enforcement
Anna Nyulund
@evan I didn't bother reading it. Kinda tired of Silicon Valley's philosophical whims that are not useful or enlightening. It's just a bunch of boys thinking that they are intelligent producing nonsense for applause.
Evan Prodromou
@anyulund mine, or his?
Evan Prodromou
@ironchamber @u24 I made it up. "Seven generations" is a term that means thinking three generations backwards and three forwards. Seven continents is one way of dividing up the world, meaning, don't just think of the US and maybe Europe.
esmevane, sorry
@u24 @evan agreed, this is the first I’m hearing this phrase
Aral Balkan
Evan Prodromou
@gnutelephony you should definitely remember to include that in your manifesto.
gnutelephony
@evan genuine free markets only exist with software freedom and where indigenous peoples still thrive.
Brendan Jones
@evan @ironchamber @u24 Out of curiosity, where does the 3 forwards/3 backwards concept originate? And when one thinks 3 generations backwards, what would you have them think about?
Also an FYI that this competing 7-generations concept exists and is what I thought you might have meant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_generation_sustainability
Evan Prodromou
@Brendanjones @ironchamber @u24 yes, 7 generations is unclear. Some people say 7 forward, some say 3 back, 3 forward. I think the latter makes more sense, since it's possible to meet your great grandparents or people who knew them personally. 7 forward is almost 250 years. Really hard to think about that in anything but abstract ways.
Evan Prodromou
@Brendanjones @ironchamber @u24 as for what I want people to think, that seems like a weird question. I don't know who your great-grandparents were, what they thought, what mattered to them. That's up to you to figure out.
Evan Prodromou
@derek @Brendanjones The Web is 30 years old, email is 40 years old. That's about 1 human generation back. Von Neumann architecture, some of our programming languages like FORTRAN, COBOL, and Lisp date back another 30 years or so.
Brendan Jones
Derek Caelin is writing a book
@Brendanjones @evan Thanks! What an idea, click around and explore more before asking a question! 😅
Fully agree with the sentiment. It's a challenge to think about "generations" given how emphemoral software is, but maybe that's the point.
Derek Caelin is writing a book
@evan what does "seven generations" refer to? Or should I wait for the manifesto!
Evan Prodromou
@Brendanjones @ntnsndr you should definitely include those in your manifesto.
Brendan Jones
@evan @ntnsndr I like, though “technology should not actively hurt us” feels a bit like a bare minimum! Surely that requirement can be raised higher, and maybe framed positively.
Also something about non-human impact would be nice, something about minimising material & energy footprint.
Evan Prodromou
@seanbala @Brendanjones @derek yeah, I think the link to Native American traditions is tenuous and may be some kind of exoticism or cultural fabrication.
Sean Bala
Seven Generations is a term in some cultures that indicates long-term thinking.
I think Evan is drawing from an Indigenous / First Nations understanding. It means that you need to think about the impacts of your decisions for the next 7 generations.
But 7 generations is also found in the Judeo-Christian tradition. In the Bible, seven generations is a stand-in for eternity or a really long time. And in India, you get married for 7 lifetimes (basically forever).
Evan Prodromou
Chicken :cqlgusu:
@evan I haven't heard "seven generations, seven continents" before, and my search skills aren't bringing up anything useful.
What does it mean?
(I can try to guess from context, but would rather hear it from you, if you're willing to share.)
Sergey on FunctionalScript
@evan I would go further. Our data should be content-addressable, and communication should be protocol-agnostic. We should get rid of data vendor lock-in.
Evan Prodromou
@functionalscript I look forward to reading your manifesto.
Evan Prodromou
@mcneely @mmasnick yes, I'm aware.
https://knightcolumbia.org/content/protocols-not-platforms-a-technological-approach-to-free-speech
RMcNeely
@evan @mmasnick already wrote that first one several years back.
Evan Prodromou
@phiofx you should definitely specify that in your manifesto.
TAJ
Evan Prodromou
Brendan Jones
@evan @ironchamber @u24 Ah so when I think of (my impacts on) 7 generations, I think about everyone alive today, plus anyone alive in the next seven generations. So in that frame of thinking, when I saw ‘3 back’ I was thinking you meant thinking about the people 3 generations before anyone alive today, ie dead people. So that’s why I wasn’t sure what we should be considering about them in the software we build today, besides culturally.
Evan Prodromou
@Brendanjones @ironchamber @u24 I mean, 3 generations back from you. Your parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents.
I don't buy the 7-generations-ahead thing. Barring extreme life extension or very bad decisions among your descendents, you won't meet anyone even 4 generations ahead. Thinking you know what's right for 3 more generations after that seems hubristic.
Evan Prodromou
@GreenSkyOverMe https://cosocial.ca/@evan/111252009489796231
GreenSkyOverMe (Monika)
@evan I‘m unsure what seven generations, seven continents refers to. Internationalization/localization of software? Making it accessible to old and young people?
Brendan Jones
@evan @ironchamber @u24 Huh interesting, I think we approach it differently. From my understanding a generation is generally thought of as 25 years, 7 of which would be 175 years.
A tree planted now will be around then. The scars of a mine opened now will still be on the land then, and its resources will be gone.
So I’m not thinking about precisely what 7 generations might want or need, but about leaving the planet in a better condition for them.
Evan Prodromou
@Brendanjones @ironchamber @u24 yes. I think the 3 generations back gives us grounding in the past.
Evan Prodromou
@SoniEx2 no.
Genders: ♾️, 🟪⬛🟩; Soni L.
@evan @mmasnick oh, interesting! we think, to promote adoption, it might be worthwhile to focus on fallback behaviour, and we made #FediLinks for this ( https://fedilinks.org ). it's mainly intended to improve interoperability between fedi instances and apps, but we've been struggling to gather adoption from instances and we think better client/app support for fallbacks would help push for instance support.
Evan Prodromou
@scetron @Brendanjones @ironchamber @u24
So, why not 10 generations? 100 generations? 1000?
Once you get out past real human relationships, you're just talking about abstractions -- some kind of utopian, static, imaginary future. You've unmoored from the real world, and you're trying to force on it some ideal world you imagine.
That's the hubris.
Concentrate on places you know, people you know or will know, and you're going to make different, specific decisions.
scetron
@evan @Brendanjones @ironchamber @u24 Your take on this being hubris is interesting as I take it to leave it in as natural and livable state as possible with the eye toward sustainability. What's right for them is the things existing and accepting them, not such a hard or hubris filled concept.
Evan Prodromou
@Brendanjones @scetron @ironchamber @u24 I think one of the big problems of our culture is and has been that we do everything for the Imaginary World instead of the Real World. I'm sorry you're not seeing why that is a broken system that has killed billions, and maybe staying anchored to reality and relationships we actually experience would be a good practice to cultivate. You seem to think that the problem is finding the right utopia; I'm saying the challenge is giving up on utopias.
Brendan Jones
@scetron @evan @ironchamber @u24 Y'know that proverb about old people planting trees whose shade they will never sit in? Well extend that out, this is old people planting trees whose ecosystem services they will never benefit from. Y'know, an old tree that's had time to develop hollows and dead material that provides habitat for other flora and fauna, not just a bit of shade.
scetron
@evan @Brendanjones @ironchamber @u24 but I think isnt that the point? To care for something in a way for someone you’ve never met. Seems contrary to hubris. Why not more? Indeed why not? 7 though is only just over the horizon, not some unfathomable distance.
For me, its not making something for them, it’s preserving what is so they can see it and feel it too.
Brendan Jones
@scetron @evan @ironchamber @u24 Evan I think the difference in our thinking is that you're thinking about the specific people who might exist and their needs, whereas we're thinking about the *conditions* of their existence. I'm thinking mainly about the state of the natural environment. If we think about rewilding a degraded mining site, the resulting forest is only just coming into proper maturity in 200 years. That time scale isn't hubris, it's just the timescale of natural systems.
Evan Prodromou
@Brendanjones @scetron @ironchamber @u24 regardless, I am unlikely to change my mind on this, so it might not be worthwhile continuing the conversation.
GNU Too
Brett Peary
@evan speaking of which, I’m going to incorporate a co-op today on my birthday! triangle.coop https://github.com/Triangle-Co-op/triangle-co-op-documents, made with the people I made galaxies.dev with.
Evan Prodromou
@brettpeary wow, congratulations!!!
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