Notices by Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org), page 3
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Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 14:55:43 JST 
Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)
@installgentoo That's healthy! :blobcat-thumbsup: -
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Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 14:06:10 JST
Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)
@Suiseiseki Is this just the quote where he said "I might be in the CP folder" or something? I interpret that as an edgy joke. No context to it is known from what I know. (It was some kind of quote saved by a funny-quote-saving bot.) Unless more info exists now that I didn't know of. -
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Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Sunday, 27-Oct-2024 11:10:50 JST
Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)
@Mitsu Mitsu it's October. -
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Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Friday, 25-Oct-2024 10:44:30 JST
Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)
@Suiseiseki Do you know what happened with the FSF Board Meeting thing that started Oct21? -
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Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Friday, 25-Oct-2024 10:44:29 JST
Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)
@Suiseiseki And is there anything an "outsider" (not official FSF member) can do to support Stallman / oppose the bad actors trying to take over? -
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Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Friday, 25-Oct-2024 01:24:28 JST
Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)
@feld But there aren't any more women in the BSD community than the rest of the IT sector either, are there?
I don't think the lack of women in IT can be attributed to any one cause, and I think the reasons go so deep that changes in IT communities themselves (rather than deeper changes in modern "western" culture) would only make a small difference. And that's in the ideal case, assuming those changes are actually executed well.
When it comes to recent trends like Codes of Conduct and Cancel Culture and all that jazz, I think the execution has been a complete catastrophe, and probably does a lot more harm than good where inclusion and diversity are concerned. I wrote about that here: https://blogs.feministwiki.org/taylan/2023/08/26/free-software-and-the-new-sexism/
Honestly, I was completely unsurprised to find out that Drew DeVault is into virtual child pornography. It's a perfect fit, in terms of the ideological background and the culture of cancel culture aficionados within nerdy spaces. It seems to be a culture overrun by men obsessed with sexuality and fetishes, and their "queer politics" has historic ties with pro-pedophilia philosophy, like when Michel Foucault (considered the "father of queer theory") campaigned for the complete abolition of age of consent laws in France in the 70s.
They love disregarding taboos and normalizing things that would previously be considered sexually deviant. (Furries, BDSM, ABDL, and so on, which they all liken to homosexuality, which is absurd because being gay is not a fetish. The way they think is actually homophobic in that sense.) Ironically, Stallman's "offensive" views seem based on the same mentality as well: "All the sexual taboos are just due to narrow-mindedness." But when it's an Old White Man who's saying it, they suddenly make a 180 and become puritans. I think they really just want to bring down "authority figures" for the sake of bringing down authority figures. Gives them a kick or something. -
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Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Oct-2024 14:59:53 JST
Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)
@SuperDicq @crunklord420
> when I hear "drawn CP" I think about material that is designed to look realistic
Some of it is. I forgot his name but there's an (in)famous lolicon hentai mangaka who's been accused of tracing real CSAM. There's a spectrum from highly stylized to realistic.
Of course, once it passes a certain threshold of realistic, it wouldn't be referred to as "lolicon" any more because it wouldn't be in anime style. But that's a further advantage of my terminology: I'm making the arguments I'm making against *all* types of drawn CP, because the common defenses that people use for lolicon could be used for photo-realistic drawings, CGI, and AI-generated material as well: "It's just fantasy, nobody's actually getting hurt, it's just a drawing / CGI / AI-generated pixels..."
> It is very much detached from reality and most fans of the genre know this.
I think this is a form of confirmation bias or a social bubble effect. You subconsciously ignore / avoid or maybe really never come across lolicon guys who show signs of being real pedos, so you assume there is no such problem. In my observation, it is a problem.
I've another story to tell, outside 4chan: This was in the #anime channel on Freenode if I remember correctly. One guy in this channel was living in some third world country or something. Cambodia maybe?? Two regulars of the channel traveled to meet him. I think the guy was a child pimp and they went there for child prostitution, though I've no direct evidence of that. These guys uploaded a photo they took once, from the airport, of a tiny child (maybe around 4) sucking on some toy ball, and made jokes about it. At the time I was still under the mentality of "lolicon isn't bad" so that caused me quite some cognitive dissonance. It was much later that I thought back to that and told myself "yeah, those guys were probably pedos and the other older guy they visited was probably a pimp." I sat in a fucking chat room with those people. Yuck.
> I don't think there's anything I care less about than my posts being understood by fucking Spinster users of all places lmao.
I do. We're discussing the terminology I choose to use. You can continue to call it lolicon hentai, and I'll continue to call it drawn child pornography.
> 4chan does not represent the average otaku and you should definitely know that
It represents a very sizeable portion of it. Even Drew's bookmarks included 4chan boards. I'd say *ignoring* 4chan is brainworms actually, because 4chan has been extremely influential on Internet culture in general.
But like I've said, my observations span outside of 4chan as well.
> Megumin, Victorique, Tsukiko, Konata
Whether these characters are "loli" in the sense of "lolicon" would be debatable I guess. Megumin doesn't look like a loli character at all to me. Tsukiko definitely looks like a lolicon drawing, but she also looks 12 at most. Victorique looks very young and seems to dress in "goth loli" fashion but that's a fashion style and not necessarily related to "lolicon" because the character isn't drawn in an erotic way from what I can tell. Konata also isn't drawn in an erotic way.
Not every character that may be called a "loli" in some way is automatically subject of "lolicon" because the latter term implies that the character is drawn not only to look like a child, but also in an erotic fashion, though sometimes it can be unclear whether the mangaka intended that. (For example, normal people wouldn't see Ichigo Mashimaro characters as erotic in any way, but supposedly the mangaka used to draw lolicon hentai and the characters seem popular among lolicons so I have to assume it was intentional.)
> Oh and speaking of the "she's actually 500" argument, I think it's only fair if this argument goes both ways. If a character is canonically 8 years old but acts like an adult, guess what, they are not really 8 years old.
That's not a valid analogy. The correct version would be:
"If being 500 but having the body of a 10 year-old is bad, then being 10 but having the body of a 500 year-old is OK."
And yes, if a character looks like a withered skeleton while being canonically 10 years old, then I'd say those who find that sexy are not pedos/lolicons but rather necrophiles or something.
If someone exploited a mentally disabled woman who's 30 but has the mental capacity of a 10 year-old I wouldn't call that pedophilia either. -
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Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Oct-2024 14:59:52 JST
Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)
@SuperDicq @crunklord420
Earlier, I had mentioned "pomf" as an example of how depraved "lolicon" can be.
Just now, I found out Drew wrote an image source finder bot for Reddit, and it ran on a sub called r/pomf among others.
That sub is now suspended, but according to archives, it was exactly what it sounds like...
Details on KF. Anyone who thinks "lolicon is no big deal" may want to look at the archive of r/pomf, but be warned that it's literally full of drawn child p*rn and you may become physically sick. -
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Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Oct-2024 04:02:27 JST
Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)
@lina @crunklord420 @SuperDicq @meso
> acquired taste
That's an interesting way to spell "objectively superior taste." -
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Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Oct-2024 03:28:54 JST
Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)
@SuperDicq @crunklord420
I guess "animated murder" was a weird choice of analogy because nobody uses such a term. But something like that is conceivable. Imagine that some weirdo makes a game, perhaps in VR, where the only objective is to break into someone's house and murder them. This would probably be referred to as a "virtual murder" game.
Responding to your points one by one, for the sake of structure. Don't really wanna start another argument, just explaining my logic.
1. I'm not using the term "drawn CP" to make it sound worse than what it is. I think "lolicon" makes it sound *less* bad than it is. It makes people forget what it really is, IMO. Also, some of my fedi followers may genuinely not know about lolicon. For example I've some followers (or followers of followers who may see a repost) from Spinster.xyz who are slightly older women, some of whom may not know much about anime terms.
2. Using the "virtual murder game" analogy: The word "virtual" makes it clear that it's not actual murder, so of course it wouldn't fall under murder laws. Should "drawn CP" fall under CP laws? That depends on the exact intent of the laws. Is it to protect victims from further victimization? To curb the "demand" and thus dissuade people from creating more? Or is it also to make sure that the idea of child abuse overall isn't normalized? The first two wouldn't apply to drawn/animated CP but the third would, so that's the central question.
3. (Gonna have to split this up into multiple paragraphs, coz this is gonna be long.)
I can tell you don't know much about lolicon. I wish that was me. I've seen a lot when I was into anime and 4chan, and looked into it in detail after starting to get into feminism-related debates.
Side-story: Seeing that 4chan's "loli threads" had real potential abusers, and that nobody on the site wanted to talk about this problem, was what made me quit 4chan in the end. When I started actually looking at these threads, after becoming skeptical of their supposed harmlessness, I quickly came upon a thread where a guy was commenting on his real-life 9 year-old sister in a sexual way. Me and a small number of others started a shitstorm, and all it did was get us banned. The moderators nuked everything and didn't tolerate any discussion of what happened because "off topic." Most people didn't seem to mind, and some even seemed to think it was funny that a real 9 year-old child was in danger and made jokes like saying "you know what to do!" to the guy or asking "so when are you uploading pics?" That was the last straw for me.
Anyway. Getting back to the age range in lolicon:
It's generally pre-pubescent girls. I'd say 6 to 12 or so. The characters are almost always flat-chested, or have very little chest development at most. Sometimes an older girl or even adult may be called a "loli" because she's drawn to look like a child, but those are exceptions. (Not counting the "she's actually 500" excuse by the way, which is very common; I'm talking about the apparent age of the body of the character.)
Some of the most prominent "loli" characters in mainstream anime include:
- Shinobu from the Monogatari series, who is a 500 year-old vampire in the body of an 8 or 10 year-old. (Exact age of her body depends on which part of the story it is, if I remember correctly.)
- Illya from the Fate franchise, who has the body of a 10 or 11 year-old or so if I remember correctly. And in the spin-off series Kaleid Liner, she goes to elementary school.
- The Strawberry Marshmallow (Ichigo Mashimaro) characters, who go to elementary school.
- More recently, the "dragon loli" Kanna who's apparently "equivalent to a primary school student at Oborozuka Elementary School, which she attends as a third grade student" (from Wikipedia).
As far as actual hentai (pornography) goes, perhaps the most (in)famous example is one known through the "pomf" meme, from a manga where a very young girl is severely abused.
I think sexualizing teenagers is so normalized in Japanese and anime culture that there's not even really a term for that. Though I guess some "normies" in Japan may also call a man "lolicon" if he's into teenagers, because "lolicon" is basically used like "pedo" in colloquial Japanese if I'm not mistaken. -
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Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Tuesday, 22-Oct-2024 16:50:20 JST
Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)
@SuperDicq @crunklord420 Does it really have that implication? Murder is illegal but animated murder isn't.
I think "drawn child pornography" is just the most straightforward and honest term that one can use. Foreign terms like "lolicon hentai" obscure what it is, IMO.
Whether its creation, dissemination, and/or possession should be illegal is another question... Morally, I'm strongly against lolicon, because I think it can serve as a pipeline to crime against children, and I've observed on 4chan how lolicon communities "house" pedophiles. But making things that don't directly cause harm is always a difficult topic. A lot of parallels there to hate speech legislation, I think, which is also a complicated topic IMO. -
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Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Monday, 21-Oct-2024 15:08:54 JST
Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)
@SuperDicq @crunklord420
It looks like he may have been into hardcore lolicon hentai i.e. drawn child pornography at least until 2016, and may still be.
Latest developments in his KiwiFarms thread. I wouldn't blindly trust anything of course, but I've summarised what seemed like credible evidence to me here:
https://fedi.feministwiki.org/notice/AnDMo1HKgoTEbgq5tw -
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Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Monday, 21-Oct-2024 02:06:30 JST
Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)
@kaia Might have as well gone in a bikini. Hope it wasn't cold where ever she had to spend time in that. :blobcat-ice: -
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Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Saturday, 19-Oct-2024 22:03:27 JST
Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)
@kaia @sun Yes, just like the original :blobcat-fingerguns: -
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Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Saturday, 19-Oct-2024 19:50:54 JST
Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)
@jrballesteros05 @SuperDicq
> I just want to check if the COC works on everyone or just to the people who agree with them.
100% the latter, guaranteed. It's always how it is with CoCs.
For the record, when I posted a link to my sexism article via my Fosstodon account, I got banned almost immediately:
https://blogs.feministwiki.org/taylan/2023/08/26/free-software-and-the-new-sexism/
Fosstodon might cave in and eventually ban the "Stallman report" account, and *maybe* give a warning to Drew, but seems unlikely.
And that's for creating a shitstorm of enormous proportions like this. In contrast, I'm a relative nobody and my article was maybe seen by a handful of people.
The silencing of dissenters, and the abuse of CoCs to mask it as "just following the rules," is very real. -
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Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Friday, 18-Oct-2024 08:17:46 JST
Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)
@SuperDicq @ArdainianRight @mangeurdenuage @mrsaturday
I'm being 100% serious but you're so deep into sexist bullshit you simply don't even see it. Like a fish that doesn't know it's in water. -
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Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Friday, 18-Oct-2024 08:15:55 JST
Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)
@SuperDicq @ArdainianRight @mangeurdenuage @mrsaturday
Congratulations on being part of the problem along with Drew then.
"TERF agenda" lol
Ever heard of women's rights? -
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Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Friday, 18-Oct-2024 08:12:59 JST
Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)
@SuperDicq @ArdainianRight @mangeurdenuage @mrsaturday
Ok, fuck you, sexist pig. :blobcat-shrug: -
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Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Friday, 18-Oct-2024 08:09:39 JST
Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)
@SuperDicq @ArdainianRight @mangeurdenuage @mrsaturday
I consider "TERF" to be a hateful slur. It's used to dehumanise people and incite violence:
https://feministwiki.org/wiki/TERF
And no, "he" would be correct in my language for a transwoman, since he's a man who "identifies as" (believes that he is) a woman, but isn't actually one.
Usually I use gender neutral pronouns out of politeness though. -
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Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Friday, 18-Oct-2024 07:58:18 JST
Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)
@SuperDicq @ArdainianRight @mangeurdenuage @mrsaturday
I don't remember where I've read this, but I believe the "transphobia" claim is supposed to be about this part:
> Please think about how to treat other participants with respect, especially when you disagree with them. For instance, call them by the names they use, and refer to them using words whose meanings (as you understand them) cover those participants' stated gender identities. Please also show tolerance and respect for people who do that using different words from the words you use.
Supposedly, the third sentence means that so-called "misgendering" would be allowed. If that interpretation is correct, it's totally reasonable, because some people feel as strongly about using sex-based pronouns, or gender-neutral pronouns, as others feel about having specific gendered pronouns used for them. Forcing people to use language in line with the gender identity belief system is no different from forcing people to use language in line with any other belief system. At that point it stops being about kindness, and becomes authoritarianism instead.
If I go up to a transwoman and say "you're a man! you'll never be a woman!" or e.g. specifically make a point of empathizing the word *he* when talking about them within their hearing distance with an intent to annoy them, that would clearly be harassment. Just like it would be harassment if I go up to a Christian and say "your god is fake! Jesus was just some random guy!" or intentionally use blasphemy within their hearing distance despite knowing it deeply upsets them.
But if I talk about the fact that a transwoman is, as a matter of fact, a man who performs femininity and believes himself to be a woman on the basis of having some kind of female personality essence (neurological or spiritual or whatever), and I just naturally happen to refer to him as "he" in my speech because I don't share his belief that he's a woman, then that's not harassment or hatred. Not any more than it would be harassment or hatred to speak in a way that defies Christian principles, such as using blasphemous language, referring to multiple gods in my speech patterns (expressing polytheism), or stating my belief that religion is really just a form of superstition.
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