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1. Embed this notice
   Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Saturday, 30-Nov-2024 16:11:32 JST Matthew Garrett

   Sigh having to explain to an FSF Voting Member why "this woman is, genetically, not actually a woman" is transphobic even if the context is a woman who wouldn't call herself trans

   • alcinnz, Rich Felker and Yuchen Pei repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Saturday, 30-Nov-2024 16:33:19 JST Matthew Garrett

     in reply to

     FSF leadership stay in your lane challenge difficulty: impossible

   • Embed this notice
     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 30-Nov-2024 16:42:57 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     @mjg59 Are there any FSF Voting Members who aren't utter garbage as human beings? Or who have contributed anything of technical value in the past 20 years, for that matter?

   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Saturday, 30-Nov-2024 16:42:58 JST Matthew Garrett

     in reply to

     For clarity I should say it wasn't said Voting Member who said this, he merely criticised someone for criticising it

   • Embed this notice
     Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br) (lxo@gnusocial.jp)'s status on Monday, 02-Dec-2024 06:45:45 JST Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     in reply to
     I see you've realized you've engaged in yet another act of defamation because you guessed diametrically wrong the position of the aforementioned voting member
     
     I expect you to give as much visibility to my response to you in that thread, as you did to the false disparaging statement with which you started this thread
     
     next time, instead of jumping to wrong conclusions and embarrasing yourself, ask questions first. you've done more than enough harm to your innocent victims already.
     Eric Ireland and Yuchen Pei like this.
   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Monday, 02-Dec-2024 06:48:44 JST Matthew Garrett

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     @lxo what's the false conclusion? You criticised someone who was calling out someone else's transphobia.

   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Monday, 02-Dec-2024 09:30:31 JST Matthew Garrett

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     @lxo To be clear about this: I'm referring to https://gnusocial.jp/notice/8003926 in which you say accuse Rysiek of "unrelentingly trying to staple some contradiction onto radek. ISTM you're projecting prejudice." The discussion you're responding to is largely triggered by Radek's claim in https://101010.pl/@rcz/113560689396703899 that "If the test shows Amal is a XY person with 5-alpha-reductase deficiency, that would mean Amal is male". Radek's assertion is unambiguously transphobic, but you criticised Rysiek's response.

   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Monday, 02-Dec-2024 09:39:30 JST Matthew Garrett

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     @lxo I have not accused you of being transphobic. I have said that you criticised someone for criticising transphobia. I believe that to be factually accurate. If you're going to accuse me of defamation, could you please be precise about your interpretation of my writing's meaning? Let's be careful and precise about that.

   • Embed this notice
     Luke T. Shumaker (lukeshu@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 02-Dec-2024 10:43:16 JST Luke T. Shumaker

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     @mjg59 At the time of @lxo's first reply (https://gnusocial.jp/notice/8003926) and your first reply (https://nondeterministic.computer/@mjg59/113570496539021220) I think a charitable reading still allowed a non-transphobic interpretation of Radek's posts. A narrow sliver of possibility still existed. (I'll elaborate in another post)

     Rysiek was trying to get Radek to slip up and remove that sliver. Given all of Rysiek's time+effort, you (https://nondeterministic.computer/@mjg59/113571171779365863) got Radek to remove that sliver quite quickly (https://101010.pl/@rcz/113571236878761566).

   • Embed this notice
     Luke T. Shumaker (lukeshu@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 02-Dec-2024 10:48:55 JST Luke T. Shumaker

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     @mjg59

     Radek could have replied to mjg59's post and said "There's socially-constructed gender, and there's biological sex. There are very few times when sex rather than gender is relevant: with your doctor, with your sexual partners, and--I would argue--in sports, for safety reasons. I have been discussing sex, not gender, although I have been a little sloppy with the terms."

     That would be a coherent non-transphobic view, albeit one that is mostly adopted as a dog-whistle.

     @lxo

   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Monday, 02-Dec-2024 10:50:25 JST Matthew Garrett

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Luke T. Shumaker

     @lukeshu @lxo once you're at the point of asserting that simple genetics mean that someone is male then even charitable readings are transphobic

   • Embed this notice
     Luke T. Shumaker (lukeshu@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 02-Dec-2024 10:57:16 JST Luke T. Shumaker

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     @mjg59 @lxo

     But there is a certain personality type that can take the facts as they know them and latch on to that view without being transphobic.

     Of course, that view's confidence in the safety-value of sexual dimorphism shows ignorance of how common various forms of being intersex are.

   • Embed this notice
     Luke T. Shumaker (lukeshu@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 02-Dec-2024 11:02:33 JST Luke T. Shumaker

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     @mjg59

     And I've found that doing overly charitable readings has been a boon for my mental health. I would much rather believe that one less person in the world is transphobic.

     But, I'd like to point out to @lxo, it can be dangerous for community leaders to do this. It is our responsibility to keep hateful views out of our communities, to keep our community members safe. And so we must be on the lookout for hate stowing away in carefully crafted messages.

   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Monday, 02-Dec-2024 14:52:05 JST Matthew Garrett

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Luke T. Shumaker

     @lukeshu @lxo I sympathise a lot with being charitable, and as you say it does make life a lot easier. But I count several trans people as loved ones and I see them attacked daily through dog whistles and subtle innuendo designed to poison attitudes towards them, and I cannot be charitable to that. It's an attack on people I love. Does it harm my mental health? Probably. Does it feel uncomfortable for others less tuned to this kind of thing? Certainly. But I will not let a single dog whistle by.

   • Embed this notice
     Yuchen Pei (quasi@peister.org)'s status on Monday, 02-Dec-2024 17:22:29 JST Yuchen Pei

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     @mjg59
     Basically you are saying that when person A accuses person B of something, and you agree with person A, then it is not ethical to criticise the way A expresses his views.
     @lxo
   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Monday, 02-Dec-2024 17:24:43 JST Matthew Garrett

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Yuchen Pei

     @quasi @lxo I'm saying that when someone is transphobic it's bad to complain about someone else calling that person transphobic

   • Embed this notice
     Yuchen Pei (quasi@peister.org)'s status on Monday, 02-Dec-2024 17:28:54 JST Yuchen Pei

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     @mjg59
     No, it's not bad to criticise someone for the way they engage in a discussion, whether they are correct on something or not.
     @lxo
   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Monday, 02-Dec-2024 17:32:46 JST Matthew Garrett

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Yuchen Pei

     @quasi @lxo it's never bad to call a transphobe a transphobe

   • Embed this notice
     Yuchen Pei (quasi@peister.org)'s status on Monday, 02-Dec-2024 17:35:09 JST Yuchen Pei

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     @mjg59
     You are changing the subject. @lxo did not say it is bad to call what you think is a transphobe, a transphobe
   • Embed this notice
     Advanced Persistent Teapot (http_error_418@hachyderm.io)'s status on Monday, 02-Dec-2024 19:04:52 JST Advanced Persistent Teapot

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Luke T. Shumaker

     @lukeshu @mjg59 @lxo as someone who competes in and organise competitive sporting events, I would say safety isn't the main driving force. The problem is the idea of "fairness", and the cultural perception of sex and gender as binary and fully discrete. We established M/F categories on the grounds that the athletic performance of people labelled "women" was substantially lower than that of those labelled "men", and that putting them together would largely remove any chance of women winning.

   • Embed this notice
     Advanced Persistent Teapot (http_error_418@hachyderm.io)'s status on Monday, 02-Dec-2024 19:10:45 JST Advanced Persistent Teapot

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Luke T. Shumaker

     @lukeshu @mjg59 @lxo ok, being completely real, that's only the later reason, the -original- reason, at least in the modern sense of competitive sport which basically runs from late 19th century, is that it was unseemly for women to compete at all.

     But my main point is that "fairness" drives the need for categories, but the definition was created without looking closely at the edges of those groups. Humans are fuzzy. Drawing straight lines will -always- result in places that don't fit.

   • Embed this notice
     Advanced Persistent Teapot (http_error_418@hachyderm.io)'s status on Monday, 02-Dec-2024 19:25:28 JST Advanced Persistent Teapot

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Luke T. Shumaker

     @lukeshu @mjg59 @lxo someone else in this thread argued that the discussion around trans women in sport (n.b. I see you, transmascs, even though the argument doesn't) is solely a right wing talking point. I don't think that's strictly true, it's a right wing talking point because it's something that doesn't have a simple answer and they tell people "we can give you a simple answer (sotto voce: and fuck the people that get caught in the crossfire)". It's a wedge.

   • Embed this notice
     Advanced Persistent Teapot (http_error_418@hachyderm.io)'s status on Monday, 02-Dec-2024 19:28:45 JST Advanced Persistent Teapot

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Luke T. Shumaker

     @lukeshu @mjg59 @lxo I honestly don't think we can -properly- deal with the issue until not only have we understood the nuances of how biology influences athletic advantage, but we've -also- had a very frank re-evaluation of how to define fairness in sport, because I think the concept was built on a rotten foundation.

   • Embed this notice
     Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br) (lxo@gnusocial.jp)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 07:33:47 JST Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     in reply to

     • alcinnz
     • Rich Felker
     • Luke T. Shumaker
     • Yuchen Pei
     @http_error_418 @quasi @mjg59 @lukeshu @dalias @alcinnz I don't recall seeing any post that as much as suggested radek to be transphobe at the point I first intervened. all I saw was a discussion on sports categories and fairness, in which rysiek kept on dragging the conversation to bathrooms, and that didn't sound like the rysiek I've grown fond of.
     
     it looks like I missed a relevant part of the conversation that changes a lot
     
     it looks like you, matthew, intervened by leaping to conclusions that (i) I had seen that part of the conversation (remember we're in the fediverse, conversations aren't distributed equally and entirely, one can see posts that others don't, and one can see only parts of large threads), and (ii) I agreed or supported transphobic views I was not even aware of. none of that holds, and it was entirely uncalled for. bringing the fsf into your misguided rant was an extra layer of prejudice, harm and irresponsibility
     Yuchen Pei likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     alcinnz (alcinnz@floss.social)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 07:37:18 JST alcinnz

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Rich Felker
     • Luke T. Shumaker
     • Yuchen Pei

     @lxo btw, now I seem to be the one lacking context! Why was I mentioned?

     @mjg59 @dalias @lukeshu @quasi

   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 08:05:03 JST Matthew Garrett

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • alcinnz
     • Rich Felker
     • Luke T. Shumaker
     • Yuchen Pei

     @lxo @alcinnz @dalias @lukeshu @quasi I assumed that you were replying with awareness of context rather than criticising someone without knowing what started the discussion. I apologise for making that assumption. I did not accuse you of being transphobic, but the reality is that you were (apparently unknowingly?) supporting a transphobe.

   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 08:06:57 JST Matthew Garrett

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • alcinnz
     • Rich Felker
     • Luke T. Shumaker
     • Yuchen Pei

     @lxo @alcinnz @dalias @lukeshu @quasi in any case, I believe you owe rysiek an apology.

   • Embed this notice
     Yuchen Pei (quasi@peister.org)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 08:10:27 JST Yuchen Pei

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     @mjg59
     > I did not accuse you of being transphobic, but the reality is that you were (apparently unknowingly?) supporting a transphobe.
     This is a display of tribalism, plain and simple. Have you never heard of the virtue of defending your enemy when they are unfairly attacked, or criticising your friend when they are being unfair?
     @lxo
   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 08:14:33 JST Matthew Garrett

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Yuchen Pei

     @quasi @lxo There's never a need to defend a transphobe against the consequences of their transphobia

   • Embed this notice
     Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️ (xgranade@wandering.shop)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 09:34:41 JST Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Yuchen Pei

     @quasi @lxo @mjg59 Hi, actual trans person here. When you support a transphobe making transphobic arguments, whether you mean to or not, that causes real and actual harm. As with any case where you cause harm, especially if that harm is unintended, the polite and helpful thing to do is to first address that harm, then apologize.

     Worrying over vague hypotheticals about false accusations really shouldn't be a priority. Real harm was done here, and it's good to address that.

   • Embed this notice
     Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️ (xgranade@wandering.shop)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 09:35:28 JST Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Yuchen Pei

     @quasi @lxo @mjg59 Put differently, bringing up vague hypotheticals about false accusations creates the very clear message that possibly inconveniencing cisgender people is worse than actually harming transgender people. That's really messed up and hurtful in its own right.

   • Embed this notice
     Yuchen Pei (quasi@peister.org)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 10:04:04 JST Yuchen Pei

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️
     @xgranade
     Thanks to transactivists, transphobia has too many meanings now, ranging from hating trans people to not believing men can be women. The case here is not believing a male person with a male-only DSD is a woman. Do you consider this statement transphobic and does it hurt transpeople?
     @lxo @mjg59
   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 10:08:53 JST Matthew Garrett

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️
     • Yuchen Pei

     @quasi @lxo @xgranade the assertion that someone raised as a woman and who calls herself a woman isn't a woman is pretty obviously transphobic yeah

   • Embed this notice
     Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️ (xgranade@wandering.shop)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 10:13:53 JST Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Yuchen Pei

     @quasi @lxo @mjg59 "not believing men can be women" is *precisely* what it means to hate trans people, yes. Taken very literally, it says that a trans woman like myself can never actually be a woman in your eyes.

     Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br) likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Yuchen Pei (quasi@peister.org)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 10:15:25 JST Yuchen Pei

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️
     @xgranade
     That's like saying not believing god exists means hating religious people
     @lxo @mjg59
     Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged), ӀɑվӀɑ ɑӀҽ×ɑղժɾօѵղɑ ? and mittimithai like this.
   • Embed this notice
     Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️ (xgranade@wandering.shop)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 10:15:59 JST Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Yuchen Pei

     @quasi @lxo In the specific case, as @mjg59 points out, that statement is even more explicit — you're using your belief in "male-only DSDs" to justify imposing a gender on someone against their consent, their expression, their relationship to their body, and to their own history in that body.

     That is, indeed, the exact kind of harm that I was referring to above.

     Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br) likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 10:16:39 JST Matthew Garrett

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️
     • Yuchen Pei

     @quasi @lxo @xgranade could you explain that analogy in more detail?

   • Embed this notice
     Yuchen Pei (quasi@peister.org)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 10:26:04 JST Yuchen Pei

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️
     @xgranade
     Requiring someone to share your belief on something is a violation of that person's freedom of conscience.
     @lxo @mjg59
     ӀɑվӀɑ ɑӀҽ×ɑղժɾօѵղɑ ? and mittimithai like this.
   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 10:36:31 JST Matthew Garrett

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️
     • Yuchen Pei

     @quasi @lxo @xgranade Like requiring someone to share a belief that "people are not inferior based on their skin colour or racial background" is a violation of that person's freedom of conscience?

   • Embed this notice
     mittimithai (mittimithai@neenster.org)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 10:39:47 JST mittimithai

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️
     • Yuchen Pei
     Your reasoning sounds ridiculous.
     Yuchen Pei likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 10:42:05 JST Matthew Garrett

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • mittimithai
     • Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️
     • Yuchen Pei

     @mittimithai @lxo @quasi @xgranade And you think the most important thing people should know about you is the presence of a transcription factor, I don't think you're in a position to call anything ridiculous

   • Embed this notice
     mittimithai (mittimithai@neenster.org)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 10:44:09 JST mittimithai

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️
     • Yuchen Pei
     I have not mentioned (a) transcription factor? What is your claim?
   • Embed this notice
     Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️ (xgranade@wandering.shop)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 10:46:03 JST Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Yuchen Pei

     @quasi @lxo @mjg59 Can you explain what "freedom of conscience" entails? As stated, it appears that you're prioritizing that over bodily autonomy.

     If so, that's again the exact kind of harm that I'm calling out here: there is no right, no freedom, that allows you to impose a gender on someone else. You do not get to decide anyone's gender, regardless of your beliefs.

   • Embed this notice
     Yuchen Pei (quasi@peister.org)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 10:52:29 JST Yuchen Pei

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • mittimithai
     • Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️
     @mittimithai
     I'm guessing he's referring to your bio
     @lxo @mjg59 @xgranade
   • Embed this notice
     Yuchen Pei (quasi@peister.org)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 11:02:54 JST Yuchen Pei

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️
     @xgranade
     How does someone not believing men can be women affect another person's bodily autonomy? Does the bodily autonomy of an adult man that believes he's a woman include rights to change and shower with teenage girls?
     @lxo @mjg59
   • Embed this notice
     Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️ (xgranade@wandering.shop)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 11:08:45 JST Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Yuchen Pei

     @quasi @lxo @mjg59 If you don't understand why the framing of that questions is intensely transphobic, and as a result intensely harmful, then I invite you to reflect on that and find a way to be kinder to the people you share this planet with.

     Setting that aside, though, yes, policing basic bodily functions like urination and defecation based on your personal assumptions about how other people's bodies work is an encroachment on bodily autonomy.

   • Embed this notice
     mittimithai (mittimithai@neenster.org)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 11:45:14 JST mittimithai

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️
     • Yuchen Pei
     Ah. I had forgotten it was there. I don't know why he would think the bio is something terribly important. Fwiw I put it there as a bit of a silly joke but also meant to tell spinster users . There used to be a lot more discussion on basic molecular biology.
     Yuchen Pei likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Yuchen Pei (quasi@peister.org)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 12:05:29 JST Yuchen Pei

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️
     @xgranade
     It's certainly convenient to label questions challenging one's ideology transphobic and avoid answering it. Just like a religious zealot calling heresy on questions challenging their religious dogma.
     
     I did not mention urination or defecation.
     
     To @lxo, in case you are still paying attention to this thread, please take note of the anti-freedom and anti intellectual nature of trans rights activism. @mjg59
     mittimithai likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 15:55:05 JST Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     @mjg59 @lxo
     
     Come on. There is nothing transphobic about pointing out rudimentary biological facts.
   • Embed this notice
     Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br) (lxo@gnusocial.jp)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 22:36:43 JST Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     in reply to

     • alcinnz
     apparently the "reply to all" button mentions even people who merely liked a hateful and misinformed post in the thread
     alcinnz likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br) (lxo@gnusocial.jp)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 22:45:08 JST Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     in reply to

     • Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)
     • alcinnz
     • Rich Felker
     • Luke T. Shumaker
     • Yuchen Pei
     @taylan @quasi @mittimithai @xgranade @mjg59 @alcinnz @http_error_418 @lukeshu @dalias there's a logically unsound conclusion being drawn here: that criticizing a poor line of argumentation, that stoops an ally down to the level of an opponent, somehow implies support for the opponent. it's not, that's just nonsense. strenghtening the ally's arguments by pointing out weakenesses in it is by no means a detriment to the cause.
     
     indeed, my personal policy, that I strive to keep, is to avoid participating in a discussion in a moderation role if I'm partial to either side, but if I do participate anyway, then I must moderate the one whose side I espouse.
     
     I've come to this policy after observing that it's very common for people to mix up roles of moderation and debating, which leads to power abuse that I don't wish to partake on.
     alcinnz likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br) (lxo@gnusocial.jp)'s status on Tuesday, 03-Dec-2024 22:57:38 JST Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     in reply to
     yup. and in the case at hand, it's arguable whether it's a trans woman that we were talking about. maybe "transphobic" is not the best label for this kind of circumstance. perhaps something that conveys the notion of intolerance to others' gender identity and expression, would be more appropriate, but I don't know whether there's a term for that
   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Wednesday, 04-Dec-2024 02:56:48 JST Matthew Garrett

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     @lxo Well I guess that takes us full circle back to https://nondeterministic.computer/@mjg59/113570633315051759 - the argument that a woman isn't really a woman due to some genetic factor is inherently a transphobic argument even if it's currently being directed at a woman who wouldn't describe herself as trans.

   • Embed this notice
     Yuchen Pei (quasi@peister.org)'s status on Wednesday, 04-Dec-2024 05:30:54 JST Yuchen Pei

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • alcinnz
     @lxo
     I assume the post you are referring to is the original post of this thread by mjg59, because I see on the gnusocial web client that both I and @alcinnz appear to have repeated (boosted in mastodon speak) it, see https://gnusocial.jp/conversation/4096717. I definitely did not. The closest post I repeated was one of your responses https://gnusocial.jp/notice/8020532. Something is wrong with gnusocial here.
   • Embed this notice
     Yuchen Pei (quasi@peister.org)'s status on Wednesday, 04-Dec-2024 05:37:31 JST Yuchen Pei

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     @lxo
     In your view, what statements constitute intolerance to others' gender identity and expression in this example?
     @mjg59
     mittimithai likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br) (lxo@gnusocial.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 04-Dec-2024 12:46:45 JST Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     in reply to
     I once again can't see the post you refer to, but I suspect you may have misinterpreted what I wrote. I meant the uncertainty is whether she's a trans woman or a cis woman. as I said before, there's no doubt in my mind that she's a woman.
     
     why do you insist on interpreting me as if I were a hateful person like you? I'm not! that's very unpleasant and unkind!
   • Embed this notice
     Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br) (lxo@gnusocial.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 04-Dec-2024 13:01:06 JST Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     in reply to

     • Yuchen Pei
     interesting. I was wondering why you'd have boosted that. it seemed odd for you to boost it, because you've made so many transphobic posts that made my blood boil that I had to stop following you. I feared you might have boosted it to attract other transphobes to gang up on us. I'm glad I was mistaken in my fear.
   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Wednesday, 04-Dec-2024 13:34:01 JST Matthew Garrett

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     @lxo it makes no difference! The argument made was transphobic no matter who it was aimed at

   • Embed this notice
     Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged) (taylan@fedi.feministwiki.org)'s status on Wednesday, 04-Dec-2024 14:33:35 JST Taylan (Now 18% More Deranged)

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     @lxo
     
     I hope you will eventually understand that being concerned about women's rights, gay rights, evidence-based medicine, scientific principles, and freedom of speech, do not make someone "transphobic."
     
     (Those are the reasons I criticise the transgender movement. From what I've seen, the same goes for @quasi@peister.org.)
     
     This frivolous use of "transphobic" that's used to end discussions and bully people leads to nobody taking the word seriously anymore outside of certain echo chambers. Please don't contribute to that.
     
     Overall, this "new puritanism" (as Andrew Doyle calls it) within left/liberal politics is likely to have been a major contributing factor to Trump's recent win, to so many young people in Germany voting AfD (far right), and so on. More and more people are seeing "liberals" and "leftists" as a bunch of clowns because of these issues. And I can barely fault them, because it is almost comedic how often discussions are being shut down with frivolous accusations of bigotry now. The average left/liberal activist has become no more rational, no more open minded, and no more tolerant than right wing activists at this point.
     
     As someone who's considered himself left wing and liberal all his life (since childhood, really) I find it deeply sad to witness.
   • Embed this notice
     Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br) (lxo@gnusocial.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 04-Dec-2024 14:56:50 JST Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     in reply to
     I can't tell which argument you're talking about any more. surely it's not mine. you've lost me and my interest in feeding your trolling. have a nice life. hopefully a less hateful one.
   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Wednesday, 04-Dec-2024 15:00:43 JST Matthew Garrett

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     @lxo person A made an unambiguously transphobic argument. Person B argued against them. You criticised person B, and then questioned whether person A's argument was actually transphobic because maybe the person it was aimed at isn't a trans woman.This isn't complicated! Don't pretend it's confusing!

   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Wednesday, 04-Dec-2024 15:31:14 JST Matthew Garrett

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     @lxo ugh look I'm sorry this has ended up fairly confrontational and whoever I think is wrong here that's my fault. Is there a better way to actually discuss this, because I think it's genuinely important?

   • Embed this notice
     Yuchen Pei (quasi@peister.org)'s status on Wednesday, 04-Dec-2024 16:17:28 JST Yuchen Pei

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     • alcinnz
     @lxo
     You can find out who boosted the post at https://nondeterministic.computer/@mjg59/113570633315051759/reblogs unless the booster is sanctioned by the instance at nondeterministic.computer. Last I checked neither my account nor peister.org is suspended or blocked by that instance. I doubt @alcinnz is sanctioned either so he probably didn't boost it either. If it is a gnu social bug then it is rather serious as it can cause serious misunderstandings. Perhaps report it at https://notabug.org/diogo/gnu-social/issues?
     
     Thanks for explaining why you stopped following me. For the record I don't hate trans people and my posts reflect that. My view on the trans issue is in many ways similar to JK Rowling as explained in https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/
   • Embed this notice
     Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br) (lxo@gnusocial.jp)'s status on Thursday, 05-Dec-2024 17:47:21 JST Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     in reply to
     dude, this thread literally started with you going behind my back to make false and derogatory statements about myself and about an organization I care a lot about, because you completely misunderstood something I wrote and jumped to hateful conclusions
     
     talking to you has always been like that
     
     it's just not worth the risk
     
     it's never pleasant to talk to you because the too-high risk of your reacting by blowing up some figurative pillow, and then refusing to regather the feathers, leaving it for myself to row my reputation back to where it was before
     
     we don't agree on everything, and I am convinced that your way of dealing with hate and intolerance is no better than other forms of hate and intolerance that I fight, it just has different targets, and it fails to respect the targets' right to exist. I don't expect to be able to convince you of it, though, so it's probably best for us to agree on disagreeing about that, and to agree on leaving each other alone
   • Embed this notice
     Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br) (lxo@gnusocial.jp)'s status on Thursday, 05-Dec-2024 17:59:51 JST Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     in reply to
     what I said was that I thought "transphobic" was not a good term to describe failure to accept a cis woman's gender identity. I acknowledged that I'm not entirely sure she's a cis woman. I just don't know the facts, and honestly, it's enough for me to know she's a woman. it didn't expect it would be that hard to get that from what I wrote.
     
     and, again, I didn't criticize anyone for criticizing the gender intolerance that I hadn't even come across at that time. I criticized someone for trying to force someone else to express presumed gender-hateful beliefs. I don't see that this serves any positive purpose. if the suspect happened to not be transphobic, that painful show would go on indefinitely (as it would between the two of us, if neither of us got tired); as it turned out, a conversation that was mostly respectful (granted, with some suspicious claims) became one that could seriously hurt any trans and trans-caring people reading it. I don't think that inciting transphobic speech protects victims of transphobia. if the person was already known to be a transphobe, as seems to be the case, provoking the person to express it seems to be the worst one could do to keep people we care about safe. it may have been enjoyable for intolerance-reciprocity fans to watch, but to me it was just disgusting
   • Embed this notice
     Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br) (lxo@gnusocial.jp)'s status on Thursday, 05-Dec-2024 18:10:32 JST Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     in reply to

     • Yuchen Pei
     that's the thing, that page just tells me to go away (that's how I read "you must enable JavaScript"), and that's the case of all mastodon servers, so my only point of reference is this server, that appears to be buggy in this regard
     
     I'm glad you don't feel hatred towards trans people. I don't know how to interpret things I read that you posted otherwise, but it's been a while. maybe I'll give it another try, and then we can talk privately about it, if you'd welcome that.
     Yuchen Pei likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Yuchen Pei (quasi@peister.org)'s status on Thursday, 05-Dec-2024 19:49:36 JST Yuchen Pei

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)
     @lxo
     > hat's the thing, that page just tells me to go away (that's how I read "you must enable JavaScript"), and that's the case of all mastodon servers
     
     Yes, that's a problem, and unless your (non-js) fedi client (e.g. gnu social web client, mastodon.el, tusky etc.) supports an anonymous/public view, it will show you a view from your server login of boosters of that post, which in your case is erroneous. The corresponding public view json api is https://nondeterministic.computer/api/v1/statuses/113570633315051759/reblogged_by
     
     > maybe I'll give it another try, and then we can talk privately about it, if you'd welcome that.
     
     Sounds good, thanks
   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Friday, 06-Dec-2024 01:30:08 JST Matthew Garrett

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     @lxo despite me having asked, you still haven't explained what I said that was false - as far as I can tell I did no such thing.

   • Embed this notice
     Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br) (lxo@gnusocial.jp)'s status on Saturday, 07-Dec-2024 08:10:35 JST Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     in reply to
     you didn't answer any of my questions, I've answered plenty of yours. the asymmetry is disturbing to my neurodivergent mind.
     
     I've answered this question already, more than once. if you couldn't get the answer, I doubt my answering it one more time would get it across. communication between the two of us is just too hard, and not interesting enough to justify more effort.
   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Saturday, 07-Dec-2024 08:54:23 JST Matthew Garrett

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     @lxo Can you link to where you answered it? I'm sorry, I don't remember seeing this.

   • Embed this notice
     Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br) (lxo@gnusocial.jp)'s status on Saturday, 07-Dec-2024 12:41:22 JST Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     in reply to
     I really don't feel like going through this conversation again
   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Garrett (mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)'s status on Saturday, 07-Dec-2024 13:38:32 JST Matthew Garrett

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva (moving to @lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)

     @lxo I'm genuinely confused. You accused me of having defamed you, but given I never claimed you were transphobic I don't know what you believe I incorrectly accused you of!