mekka okereke :verified:
I just realized that I don't need to argue with y'all about:
* Starter packs
* Composable moderation
* Quote tweets
* Paying trust & safety engineers for their labor
* Funding stuff without VC or begging for donations
* If UX is possible without VC money
I don't need to argue with y'all about any of this. I'm not asking for your permission or your help. I'm telling you what's going to happen.
Mastodon is moving in the right direction, just slowly. It could be faster with funding + focus.
1/N
mekka okereke :verified:
I said what I said about Mastodon moving too slowly to matter for the US midterms, so BlueSky being our best bet.
I said what I said about me being wrong about thinking that Mastodon would get it together by now.
I said what I said about BlueSky making it okay that Mastodon moves slower, and it not necessarily being over in the long run. We're watching people leave Twitter at a rate of 1 million a day. If BlueSky does go bad, and a better option is available, I anticipate a similar exit.
2/N
mekka okereke :verified:
Here's my list of "statements that I want to be true" for 2025.
* Mastodon will have Starter packs
* Mastodon will have Composable moderation
* Mastodon will have Quote tweets
* More people will be paid to work full-time on Fediverse trust & safety in 2025, than in the history of the Fediverse up until this point
* Mastodon will be better funded in 2025 than any year prior, without accepting any VC money
* More people will work full time on Fediverse UX than any year prior
Bet against me.
3/3
Emelia 👸🏻
@mekkaokereke I think the only "hard" one on that list for me, that I don't have a good answer for is “Composable moderation” — the only way this can work is through data sharing with third-parties, which can get sketchy without proper DPAs in place.
mekka okereke :verified:
As fun as this list is, I forgot one:
* Despite all this progress on Mastodon, even more innovation will happen in the Fediverse services outside of Mastodon. In 2025, they'll be better funded, put more emphasis on UX, and put more emphasis on user safety as well.
4/4
Renaud Chaput
@thisismissem @mekkaokereke I think the model I described in my blog post with providers still works fine for this. And we the work in progress around providers for Fediscovery will get us closed to this vision
mekka okereke :verified:
Hard, but sometimes so worth it!
Sashin
@mekkaokereke I definitely want all these things to be true.
It really is hard competing with money in money's world.
mekka okereke :verified:
BlueSky's vision for a Composable moderation, from Jay, their CEO:
https://bsky.social/about/blog/4-13-2023-moderation
The tool for Composable moderation:
https://bsky.social/about/blog/03-12-2024-stackable-moderation
Local Dad, Ben Hamill
@mekkaokereke I don't know what "composable moderation" means, but I am very interested in those two words next to each other. Do you have a link handy that I could read some basics about the idea? If not, no worries.
mekka okereke :verified:
I donate to Nivenly. I don't fund projects directly myself. Because I don't trust myself. I'm a dude on the internet. That's two strikes already!
By donating to Nivenly, all members of the Nivenly co-op get to decide which projects to fund, and why.
Nivenly has a great blend of Black, White, Asian, Latin, and trans, technologists, who've seen this movie before (risks of blocklists and starter packs). Very socio-technically aware. They provide governance.👍🏿
ahimsa
@mekkaokereke Is there a place where we can donate to help these goals get achieved? Thanks!
Edit: I know about the main donation link for Mastodon but I wonder if maybe there is something else where money is earmarked for these goals?
mekka okereke :verified:
To be clear, the goal is not for Nivenly to become a perpetual philanthropic organization.
The goal is to bootstrap a self-sustaining, financially viable ecosystem for trust and safety and Fediverse software development. So some projects are incubated and then graduate.
For $7 a month, you can be a Nivenly co-op general member, and get to vote on stuff too!
https://nivenly.org/governance/
Our money goes into the pot. The Co-op decides what projects to help to advance the Fediverse.
mekka okereke :verified:
This new emphasis on iTunes on iPod amaze me.
You can have music on homemade MP3 player tomorrow, as much as we had 2 years ago.
Every user can rip CD, compress MP3, solder small SD card reader and liON batter to soundcard, injection mould small plastic case, write small MP3 decompressor software and load to EEPROM with embedded OS, write driver for serial cable to push music files, program small UI using digital screen and left, right, select buttons...
Same as iTunes + iPod!
Luca Sironi
This new emphasis on Start packs on BS amaze me.
You can have starter packs, on mastodon tomorrow, as much as we had 2 years ago.
Every user can export and import list of users to follow, and those list are simple csv files
Oliver Jensen
@mekkaokereke ok. I will bet against you, for the simple fact that if I lose, I win.
I bet $150 that mastodon will not have both quote tweets and composable moderation by January 1 2026.
If I lose, I'll pony up the cash to the destination of your choice (a charity, a mastodon server, someone asking for MutualAid, your own Venmo, whatever). If I win, 🤷 I've gotten way more than $150 value from your posts so we'll call it good.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@sashin @mekkaokereke I do think if we play it right the fact that fedi is not VC funded will play massively to our advantage.
There are decisions that we simply don't have to make that Bluesky will have to make. Decisions about monetization (premium accounts are already a thing there I think? ads when?), the temptation to sell data, and so on.
But we have to play it smart for this to matter. If users find fedi too daunting or too frustrating or not safe enough to use, the above won't matter.
mekka okereke :verified:
Deal!
Fair warning, I'm cheating! 😀 Because I know that the Mastodon team and other volunteers are already working on these things.
They don't get fragile when I criticize Mastodon. They just... work on fixing stuff.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@ojensen @mekkaokereke ok, how do we make sure you lose this bet, then?
I'm serious. We've been having these conversations for years now. Things don't budge. So what do we do to make them budge in a positive, productive way?
Christopher Griffiths
@mekkaokereke Not going to bet against you, rather choosing to hope your list comes to pass!
Jef Poskanzer :batman:
@mekkaokereke Yeah that's a good point. Xexit demonstrates that social media users are highly mobile. Anyone wanting to enshittify Bluesky should think about that.
Dave Clark
@mekkaokereke one thing that Masto should have learned during the last X-it that didn't significantly increase daily traffic is something that Bluesky could also learn -- people who don't have long histories will move again, quickly.
See also Post, Hive, CoHost, CounterSocial, etc
Some of the people begging me to follow them to Bluesky did the same for at least three other platforms within the past year
Flock of Cats 🐈 🐈 🐈 🦃
Where is @Gargron in all this?
You are both a supporter and constructive critic of Fedi/Mastodon. You drop truth bombs worthy of attention from the masto devs but do you hear back?
You are right that the dev is too slow. It’s not that they aren’t trying hard or doing a good job. There just aren’t enough of them. The official masto app still doesn’t have quote toots, so we still argue about them after many years!
mekka okereke :verified:
They're responsive. They're working. But yes, it's slow. The team is tiny. And they're human beings, so no, they don't always make the right call. None of us do.
But they're open to being persuaded. They don't always agree with me, but they listen. They've grown as an organization, and make different decisions now than they did 5 years ago.
mekka okereke :verified:
I don't think I'm depicting a worse UX situation than it is?
Because Mastodon starter packs are below the threshold of people using them. And BlueSky starter packs are clearly above that threshold.
Luca Sironi
Yeah, i see what you're doing here, but was unnecessary.
I said too that we definitely have some UX issues, though i think that for this particular case, you are depicting a far worse situation than it is.
I just read this article someone posted in my timeline, it seems like your account is in some Mastodon Follow Packs.
Very good !
Let's build on those extraordinary difficult steps, and we'll have this fixed soon
https://mastodonmigration.wordpress.com/2024/11/18/mastodon-follow-packs/
Oliver Jensen
@mekkaokereke I cannot express enough how much I want you to cheat.
David Andersen
@mekkaokereke @ahimsa_pdx is nivenly a is 591 c(3)?
Justin 🌻
@mekkaokereke this is what I’m wondering. Could a fork or alternative that can move faster (maybe gets foundation or angel funding?) take a large share?
Elena Rossini ⁂
@mekkaokereke I wonder if you’ve ever tried Sharkey (a fork of MissKey)? It has a gorgeous UX/UI that makes it a lot of fun to use. And it has markup and lots of advanced functionalities. Had I stumbled upon it first, I would have set up my Fediverse home there.
I had been meaning to do a Sharkey show & tell for my blog The Future is Federated, but I’ve been delayed by the mess of USpol… I’ll ping you once I do (prob next month)
Chee Aun 🤔
@graue @Andres4NY @mekkaokereke despite being a Mastodon-first client, Phanpy now already supports bits of little features from other servers. Most of them are external contributions as I don't have the capacity to keep up and test them.
Back to topic; I agree that everything needs better funding. Even AP competitors also need the same thing.
The Nexus of Privacy
@cheeaun just wanted to say how impressed I am with what you've done with Phanpy! It's a great example of what @mekkaokereke said in the first post in the thread about how great UX is possible without VC money. I really hope that you're getting the compensation (in whatever form you're looking for) that you deserve -- and if not yet, I hope that happens in 2025!
Scott Feeney
@Andres4NY @mekkaokereke cc @cheeaun: would you be open to adding support into Phanpy for new features like starter packs, limiting replies, and composable moderation, if pioneered by a server app other than Mastodon?
Andres Salomon
@mekkaokereke Here's what I'd like to be true in 2025.
* Mastodon has a real ActivityPub competitor (GoToSocial paired with Phanpy?) that uses fewer resources, is easier to maintain, gets features implemented much faster, promotes safety and usability, and actually adds genuine innovations that we haven't even considered yet.
Phanpy is already there on the client side, but we need the server piece.
SSFC KDT 💚💙⚽🌹💻🍺✌
@mekkaokereke y'all need qa?
Jonobie
@mekkaokereke I do not wanna bet against you! This is so much my hope for 2025 too.
mekka okereke :verified:
Unfortunately not.
501(c)(4)
Claudine C :dingding:
@mekkaokereke Thanks for this thread! I hadn't looked into Nivenly before but I do love a good co-op.
Tom
@mekkaokereke @ahimsa_pdx nice, I already donate to Hachyderm but didn't realise you could join the Nivenly co-op. I also didn't realise they've released an Android client which I'm writing this post on. It's very smooth.
Sashin
@mekkaokereke All in all it's better to go slow than go bad. Let's hope for the best.
mekka okereke :verified:
And most importantly, users can create their own starter packs.
So a Black woman cartoon illustrator, can easily make her own starter pack of "Black comics professionals." Then, when she invited her friends from Twitter, she can just say, "click on my starter packs!"
No admins need to do anything.
It gets coverage of deeply connected micro-communities that admins might not know about.
Robert Kingett
A one click method to follow public lists of accounts, or to register to a server with a set number of people you follow, like, BSky has it where you can register to the platform instantly following everyone in a particular starter packs. Instances could do their own version too. Users can opt in to the starter packs for their instances. @meejah @mekkaokereke
meejah
@mekkaokereke What is a "starter pack" and how can I help that happen for Mastodon?
your auntifa liza 🇵🇷 🦛 🦦
so do they have a roadmap for forking and adding features to Mastodon? will they fork and add QT, on-boarding, etc.?
if they have a roadmap to making that happen, then why aren't y’all getting us all to join?
or are y’all waiting for us to join to then go thru the process of creating the roadmap and setting goals and budgets, etc?
mekka okereke :verified:
@blogdiva @dave_andersen @ahimsa_pdx
Nivenly is probably not going to fork Mastodon, at least not directly. We need to support the existing Fediverse software, including Mastodon, but yes, also the other ActivityPub software.
We need to support these existing efforts, and encourage co-op style governance, sustainable funding, excellence in User Experience design, and Trust & Safety.
We accelerate others' roadmaps.
In some cases, we support others' brand new initiatives.
Mark Kraft
@mekkaokereke I'm all for something like starter packs, but the devil is in the details. There appears to be serious server issues that starter packs could potentially exacerbate, if not addressed first.
https://elk.zone/mastodon.social/@KraftTea/113519877780405274
mekka okereke :verified:
Yes, that's a real issue, but has nothing to do with starter packs.
https://hachyderm.io/@mekkaokereke/109694404895541101
If we picture a world with 500M people on Mastodon, the infra design breaks a lot of smaller sites. Conversely, BlueSky's infra choices don't break smaller sites. I do love your focus on what it means for Fediverse to be a better Internet citizen.
"Mastodon only works because it's not popular! Stop making it popular!" is probably not the message we should lead with.
mekka okereke :verified:
The transgender community on Mastodon is not "very strong." Only people that see the world through white eyes think that it's super strong. Because they don't even notice the lack of Black trans people.
https://hachyderm.io/@mekkaokereke/113517664776373714
The transgender community on BlueSky is much stronger, in large part because it has thousands of Black trans users. Thousands.
BlueSky probably has more Black trans people than Mastodon has Black people period.
And I'm choosing to ignore "ghetto-ize."🤦🏿♂️
Mark Kraft
@mekkaokereke I can only speak of what a disaster for #lgbtqia people a commercially-biased, top-40esque formatting has been for us. I'm sure there are endless parallels in other communities.
i.e. When it comes to journalism, Andrew Sullivan has, until quite recently, ruled the roost when it came to #lgbtqia figures, for nearly twenty years, in a kind of right-wing putsch. As the media feted and tripped over themselves to platform him, he eviscerated our community.
https://www.metafilter.com/86228/US-Military-Cuts-And-A-Step-Towards-Equality#2802554
Mark Kraft
@mekkaokereke I can understand your desire for people to be able to find those who are well-known, but you should at least realize that emphasis comes at a price.
The #transgender community on #mastodon, in particular, is very strong. They fled here because of hate. Starter packs could easily ghetto-ize their presence here. What I'm thinking of is more like the formatting I experienced in public radio. We'd play stars, but also three other tiers.
More tiers, more protection of diversity.
Mark Kraft
@mekkaokereke If we REALLY want to encourage growth & diversity, we should realize we're inheriting some bad demographics here at Mastodon. Platforming aging developers and niche influencers is valuable, yes... but in a limited way.
We SHOULD be focusing on younger demographics.
Which is another reason why we should be careful of a solution that leans ageist, without showcasing diversity and youth, when they're a LOT of our future going forward.
We lost the short game. Let's win the long one.
mekka okereke :verified:
BlueSky users skew younger than Mastodon. Again, in large part because Black Americans are young, and white Americans are old.
The most common age for a Black person in the US is 27. For white people, it's 58. A place with no Black folks tends to be older.
This is why white people trick themselves every year into thinking that young voters are less racist. No. Young voters have more Black people. Every generation of white folks votes pretty much the same.
Mastodon Migration
From the admittedly small experience so far with Follow Packs feel like the issues we need to address to make packs work and be safe is both consent and size.
People need a way to remove themselves if they don't want to be listed.
Packs need to be manageable in size. It they are too big the originator can't possibly do a good job when issues arise.
Too big also makes them potentially more problematic both technically and socially.
1/n
Mastodon Migration
Be very curious your thoughts on groupings and the potential for targeted abuse. So far the follow packs are things like astronomy. No one goes after astronomers. But when packs start grouping accounts by race and gender there may be targeting issues. Should this be a particular concern, or is it just a part of the overall moderation and abuse issue?
Rich Felker
@mastodonmigration @mekkaokereke @KraftTea My impression is that it's harmful to have groupings like "$gender in $field" or "$race in $field", for reasons of targeting and others. Instead fix the under representation in the main $field list by including folks.
mekka okereke :verified:
I'll be honest... Guys on Mastodon that don't even know what starter packs are, but spout off about them based on half knowledge of what they think they are, are really annoying. Like, super annoying.
Starter packs are created by users and contain micro-communities. They're not just giant influencer follow lists. Which is part of why there are *more* person to person conversations on BlueSky than Mastodon. Much more. It's not close.
Mark Kraft
@mastodonmigration @mekkaokereke It seems to me that people need to not just be recommended to, say, an author they like, but also to people they can legitimately befriend and interact with, who are followers / active commenters.
New users can't expect to generate a lot of friends, comments, etc. from professional content creators.
Generating a limited deck of varying but relevant people might be more useful for all concerned than a pure top-40 list.
mekka okereke :verified:
It's part of the overall moderation and abuse issues.
It's not that hard to figure out how to give users control over if they are included in starter packs or not. BlueSky hasn't done this yet, but should.
It's not that hard to moderate accounts that make starter packs for the purpose of abusing other users.
But even still, there are like 15 more important abuse vectors that need to be closed down before I worry about starter packs.
mekka okereke :verified:
Here's how starter packs really work:
Suppose you stayed on Twitter because you ran a local model airplane club, and your club met and chatted and DM'd there. The club had 80 members.
30 moved to BlueSky, but most of the convos are still on Twitter
You make a starter pack called "[town name] model airplane club." You put the 30 who moved to BlueSky in it. The starter pack is now attached to your account. It makes it easier for the other 50 people to join BlueSky.
mekka okereke :verified:
You make a thread on Twitter saying, "This is the last post on Twitter for [Town name] model airplane club. It's been a good run! You can find me on Blue Sky. Click on my starter pack to follow everyone."
That's how communities are moving to Blue Sky from Twitter, and not missing a beat.
Mark Kraft
@mekkaokereke "BlueSky users skew younger than Mastodon. Again, in large part because Black Americans are young, and white Americans are old."
In part, although the Hispanic/Latino population is about 50% larger now, growing faster, and about 2.1 years younger than the median age of Black Americans.
(This is why I tend to encourage MUCH more concentration upon helping minority groups to register themselves, based on the influence of people such as Steve Phillips.)
https://elk.zone/mastodon.social/@KraftTea/112889701096866096
mekka okereke :verified:
@KraftTea on that we agree!
You had me at "voter registration."
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