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   FinalOverdrive (finaloverdrive@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 01:07:57 JST FinalOverdrive

   • ??? 妛彁 :xf_nyxsigil: :xf_nyxdisapproving:

   @nyx I appreciate the perspective you offer. Is it basically 2nd wave? To a large extent, yes, but it's a perspective worth taking seriously. And you largely avoid the moralistic hectoring that 2nd wave radfems were prone to. It's more an honest statement of the situation as it exists between men and women, however those are defined. I think even those who aren't radical should take seriously, and men of good faith, if only to fundamentally grasp what is at issue. From there, more intelligent solutions can be proposed.

   I do see an opportunity to ask and finally understand: what is meant when radicals spoke of "autistically repeating" or "autisme" and the like. I never could get a clear answer.

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     ??? 妛彁 :xf_nyxsigil: :xf_nyxdisapproving: (nyx@social.xenofem.me)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 01:07:56 JST ??? 妛彁 :xf_nyxsigil: :xf_nyxdisapproving:

     in reply to
     @FinalOverdrive >Is it basically 2nd wave? To a large extent, yes, but it's a perspective worth taking seriously. And you largely avoid the moralistic hectoring that 2nd wave radfems were prone to.
     
     yeah, that's part of an arc I've been on and what I've been trying to develop more over the years. I haven't written as much as I'd like so far though
     
     the part about "autistically repeating" is just a sort of self-deprecating joke since I do the same thing as someone on the spectrum and often feel like I identify the same tendencies in other people but manifesting in ways that are kind of annoying instead of just getting fixated on a certain phrase or sound or whatever
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     FinalOverdrive (finaloverdrive@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 01:09:02 JST FinalOverdrive

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     • ??? 妛彁 :xf_nyxsigil: :xf_nyxdisapproving:

     @nyx A crazy idea, I admit it's not very radical: men don't cease to be men, but let go of the entitlement to women's attention and bodies. Not something that happens in some grand fashion, but happens bit by bit because it can only happen that way by necessity. Refusal is accepted with good grace, interest no longer presumed, etc. I think being confronted with the fundamental things at issue could be enough to at least get a significant number of men to stop hurting women, and decide where they must stand. In many ways, the modern manosphere represents a novel, and far more dangerous, development in patriarchy. It is a self-conscious patriarchy, one that is prepared to consciously and deliberately assert, impose, and articulate itself. It makes what is invisible, visible.

     I think desires are more immutable than one may be willing to accept, but what one does with these desires isn't immutable. Schopenhauer said said it best, I think. We can do as we will, but not will as we will. There is an optimistic side to it: it means one can do otherwise, even if it means acting against said immutable desires.

     There was this greentext meme that was making it's rounds on DreadAnon on Youtube about the Dwarfpill. One thing I liked was that, in the comment section, it seem to provoke discussion among the predominantly male commentariat for healthier alternatives to the "redpill" and the "blackpill"...what stands out to me is that none of these ideas involved subordination of women or even denigration of women. It came down to finding happiness and satisfaction by one's own efforts, making peace with one's situation (not everyone is blessed with good looks or charm, so find happiness elsewhere.) You might ask where the sexuality fits in there. I think before talking about deconstructing heterosexuality itself...just removing the compulsory aspect of it would take away a lot of it's teeth. And if men drop out of The Game and gradually become less interested in reproducing patriarchy for no other reason than they simply do not find it satisfying, heterosexuality loses some of it's power.

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     ??? 妛彁 :xf_nyxsigil: :xf_nyxdisapproving: (nyx@social.xenofem.me)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 01:09:02 JST ??? 妛彁 :xf_nyxsigil: :xf_nyxdisapproving:

     in reply to
     @FinalOverdrive >men don't cease to be men, but let go of the entitlement to women's attention and bodies
     
     I would argue that something like this would mean ceasing to be men, because to me male/female and man/woman are class relations (cf. Monique Wittig). It's similar to whiteness imo where whiteness is a socially constructed thing that doesn't actually have any real existence, and the abolition of whiteness doesn't mean like, genociding every person who is currently classified as "white" but rather it would mean a revolutionary shift in society where there are no longer classes of people who are slaughtered to maintain the ontology of whiteness or are enslaved or have their land and resources expropriated from them to maintain unsustainable modes of production.
     
     though much like with race stuff, it's also kind of a lower priority for me to tell people who currently are men how they fit into this or how to get out of this class relation. there's a book by John Stoltenberg (Andrea Dworkin's partner throughout most of her life) who wrote a book called Refusing to Be a Man that is basically an attempt at answering this question from a man's perspective, although I haven't read it yet.
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     ??? 妛彁 :xf_nyxsigil: :xf_nyxdisapproving: (nyx@social.xenofem.me)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 01:09:13 JST ??? 妛彁 :xf_nyxsigil: :xf_nyxdisapproving:

     in reply to
     @FinalOverdrive I need to get around to reading Bell Hooks but yeah that's a fair assessment, one of the common criticisms of the second wave ofc that it was too dominated by stuff written from white women's perspectives
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     FinalOverdrive (finaloverdrive@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 01:09:14 JST FinalOverdrive

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     • ??? 妛彁 :xf_nyxsigil: :xf_nyxdisapproving:

     @nyx I glanced through it. It...tries but it falls short. I think bell hooks did a more thorough job because she decided, even though she didn't have to, to try and disentangle and lay bear the psychological damage patriarchy inflicts on boys and men in order to make them Boys and Men. Part of it is because black women have, for the most part, never had the luxury of simply cutting themselves off from their male counterparts...as they shared a common condition in being oppressed by whiteness. That being said, I think sometimes the "male/female as class" perspective can be taken too far to the point where it can do harm. For instance, I think a mother should be allowed to bring their very young sons into a women's shelter as said sons are likely as much victims of their father's wrath as their mothers. Esp. since in reality people don't divide neatly into men and women, and within each category there are in fact more than one kind of man and woman...and certain masculinities are more marginalized and even subordinated. Even as I admit they get manipulated or willingly cooperate with the dominant masculinities.

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     Erato Heti (erato_heti@social.xenofem.me)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 01:09:34 JST Erato Heti

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     • ??? 妛彁 :xf_nyxsigil: :xf_nyxdisapproving:
     @FinalOverdrive @nyx sure thats fair, in retrospect i could have just chimed 'dont forget MGTOWs exist'. I apologize for my bought of long windedness.
     
     I still think that this stuff can boil back bad tho, like The Sorrows of Young Werther. either you get it out of your system in the way Goethe did or it eats you alive (in the way it did a lot of the readers at the time).
     
     ...sounds like its was a more genuine desire for epicureanism, which i think would suit a lot of those people (and most anyone) well. i think the reason people try to joke about heterosexual desire is that its sort of tragic and joking that you might be Ace or Gay etc, would be just such a convinent out. i wish them good luck. I sympathize with what you're getting at regardless.
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     Erato Heti (erato_heti@social.xenofem.me)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 01:09:35 JST Erato Heti

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     • ??? 妛彁 :xf_nyxsigil: :xf_nyxdisapproving:
     @FinalOverdrive @nyx
     
     I'm not meaning to sound disagreeable or out of my element here, but I just want to point out that escaping from the red and blackpills of desire rejection towards Self Actualization usually leads a lot of these men to MGTOW. That is to say they dont drop the intense sexist biases (ie women get turned on by fear) but instead distance themselves from all consuming Woman comtempt. Taking a more motorcycle induvidualist free spirit approach to sexism. I bring this up because during my really dumb time of trying to get with men the person I was with at the time actually radicalized and objectified my girlfriend as a result of accepting this more 'mild' critique of women. MGTOW is the immediate first exit point for available from repression which reterritorializes their desires into something more 'palatable'. thus allowing them to harm in more striatic encounters without getting Punished for it.
     
     I'm not a know it all pointdexter with this stuff but it's just worth bringing up that this pitfall is there, and has been utilized many time to keep the manosphere stable -.-
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     FinalOverdrive (finaloverdrive@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 01:09:35 JST FinalOverdrive

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     • ??? 妛彁 :xf_nyxsigil: :xf_nyxdisapproving:
     • Erato Heti

     @Erato_Heti @nyx I didn't get that sense from the commentariat I was observing. Again, there was no woman-hating I observed. Just a rejection of unrealistic standards for the so-called "manlet", about seeking happiness without reference to women period, not merely consuming women. There was no observed criticism of women, just criticism of banging one's head against the wall at the gym trying to become a gigachad when that wasn't in the genetic cards. There was also discussion of even more mild-mannered hobbitpills.

     The overall vibe I got was a general dropout from the whole dating AND casual encounter game, toward something that doesn't even think about women and how to gain them. Is it revolutionary? No, but it wasn't exactly MGTOW either. There was a general disenchantment with the manosphere in it. Honestly, I think a more realistic goal is rendering men less dangerous.

     What I was observing was a lack of interest in even striatic encounters.

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     Erato Heti (erato_heti@social.xenofem.me)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 01:10:04 JST Erato Heti

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     • Erato Heti
     @FinalOverdrive I think my other big issue with this is just that most men are not actually that ugly and their perceptions they are are wildly overstated but I figure we dont have to unpack that probably obvious trueism. I think if they took a year off from this stuff the self fulfilling prophecy would dissappear and they would get laid thus terminating that part of the psychic dialogue entirely.
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     FinalOverdrive (finaloverdrive@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 01:10:05 JST FinalOverdrive

     in reply to

     • ??? 妛彁 :xf_nyxsigil: :xf_nyxdisapproving:
     • Erato Heti

     @Erato_Heti @nyx After Andrew Tate's became Pizza Boy, even in a lot of circles that normally would indulge this crap there has been a disillusionment. Are they feminists? No, and I think it's unrealistic to expect that of them.

     What they seem to be aiming at is a fusion of Epicureanism and Stoicism. Finding happiness where they can and making peace with the possibility of never knowing sexual intimacy and romance, however fervently it may be desired. The MGTOW still uses women dishonestly, still plays the game, and doesn't engage in honest one-night stands. This...seems to kind of let go of the possibility of sexuality period. It's akin to taking a different attitude toward being an incel. It's not volcel, because those insufferably refuse sex and loudly announce it.

     It's more like "Yeah, I'm ugly; unappealing; unwanted; undesirable; short; etc, but that'd okay. Some people have it, some people don't. I'm one of those that don't. Whether or not one knows love or intimacy is entirely luck of the draw, and I am just unlucky. This is my lot in life, and I just need to make the best of it."

     From this stance, any hostility to women disappears. The end result is someone who, at worst, is only a threat to themselves and no one else. Honestly, I think that is the best that can be hoped for.

     This isn't to say they won't consume certain forms of wishfufilment media, maybe even live in it, but it's done with the understanding that it is nothing more than a fantasy, as a substitute for something they fervently desire but no longer actively pursue.

     Interestingly, and ironically, a man who completes this arc from whiny man baby who thinks they ought to be worthy of pity...to a sad, lonely and defeated figure that actually is worthy of some pity. Maybe pity is not the right word...empathetic sense of tragedy. Shed of their ressentiment and agrieved entitlement, finding peace elsewhere...they withdraw into themselves, retreat from the world. In a way, they become harmless geeks and nerds again. I only think they started becoming really dangerous when manospherians, most of whom were the kinds of people who bullied these kinds of men in high school, tried to first a) make them ashamed of how they lived their lives b) sell them a way to "attract women".

     It seems as if the chief patriarchs of patriarchy cannot tolerate any man who drops out of the race for any reason. It's threatened even by failed heterosexuals who have just given up. Never mind queers, even this is too much. It still destablizes the whole pyramid.

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     Erato Heti (erato_heti@social.xenofem.me)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 01:10:05 JST Erato Heti

     in reply to
     @FinalOverdrive Untagging nyx from this because I'm new here and dont want to bug queen Bee off the bat with effortposting in her notifs.
     
     Knowing I'm able to hold my own in this dialogue and used semi accurate terminology has helped with footholding my confidence a bit so I appreciate that.
     
     The millenial brainrot is just running the 'im ugly and im proud' script from Spongebob over and over again but I'll move past it. I want to find sympathy in this but I think if you hold onto failed heterosexuality for a couple years like that something queer flourishes out of it. Before I came out I spent quite a few years as this type of boy, the Punished Heterosexual. I think I simply doubt it as a sustainable vector point, either you queer out, you relapse, or you go into polycule feminist shit. If we are being realistic what happens in a material sense is these people reject attractive desire, make lots of money, and the shifting power dynamics lead them to engage again. That's fine thats life, but patriarchy has a material element and I think its important to keep that in mind. After you have a few hundred grand in your bank account, that patriarchy allots to you over other women, you're going to metamorphize regardless. Thats the whole reason a lot of us try to develop speculative fictions when men as a class get melted out etc. Focus on an induvidual for long enough and you'll start to pity almost anybody.