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@tillshadeisgone i was missing essential context yes. a close friend approached me last night and told me this post might have actually been part of a long & deep meta which i had no part in and which she was keeping up with. she explained to me what was going on with your instance and you added some here. so apologies if i came off insensitive or shared some arguments with concern-trolls etc. tbh i wouldn't have approached this post if i knew it was part of some meta.
there was a mismatch between what i understood of the original post and the events you were likely subposting. i hope my complaints didn't look like this abusive behavior you speak of, when viewed in that context.
i understood your original post to be talking about blocklists as a mechanism in general, and the equally general reactions to it. it was weird to me how the post went from expressing frustration with complaints to calling those complaints abusive behavior.
yes, hypocrites exist. i understand the dynamic you're describing in your last paragraph: victim blaming and defending the aggressor, selective morality and preaching equal treatment when it benefits bad faith actors, all that jazz.
the kind of upset i was talking about and the kind of upset that came with the abuse you faced are nothing alike. i'm not making a point against deplatforming racists or isolating them, and i'm not minimizing the risk of instances which express the full intent of endangering vulnerable people under the notion of some free speech absolutism. we don't disagree on having to address systemic injustices rather than pretending they no longer exist.
i am genuinely glad to see people trying to carve out spaces where systemically vulnerable people are protected.
a community like yours exists local to me and i am part of it, so i understand the need for protective tools regardless of philosophical objections. hell, my local community is on discord and i think both of us understand how much that's an ass place to build a community in, but it is what enabled the community to survive & thrive, so be it.
i don't appreciate the analogy you drew in your last paragraph onto "a lot of people" while quoting me. i will choose to assume good faith with it nonetheless and we can talk about it maybe in a different less charged context. there's lots of criticism about blocklists which isn't destructive and/or hypocritical.
or we can just disengage here at this point. hopefully with no hard feelings.
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@tillshadeisgone sure if u need a tool, even if it's crude and coarse, absolutely use it. fediverse isn't safe by design and most of the moderation tools in fedi softwares were an afterthought. privileged folks rarely consider the social effects & think it's no big deal so it's not a cornerstone of their designs. like u probably already know how to this day dm-style posts are completely readable thru the network and access control is only enforced on the edges.
idk ur specific instance's needs and it's the first time i interacted with it i think. i may be missing context around this post. happy to see the effort to make a safe space for black queers though.
i was just disagreeing with your take -- likening people who are upset with blocklists to abusers & then framing instance blocks (usually a single person or small group of people's decision, made for and against a large number of people), to be a personal boundaries thing..
instance blocklists are admins collectivising their moderation work, not users collectivising their personal boundaries. it's a centralisation & reduction of value systems onto (sometimes algorithmic!) efforts made by the few with their prejudices at play. it is wholly antidemocratic and a problematic accumulation of power if u wanna look at it philosophically.
then i was providing evidence for why being upset about it could be legitimate.
so yea this is a general systems issue from my single user instance pov. you for example could be having no ideological problems with people who don't use mastodon software, there's no precedent of them harassing black queers and some could be queer instances themselves, but a good chunk of a blocklist you might've applied could be blocked for that reason. i think there's something deeply wrong with this wholesale approach for that reason.
the alternative option of just letting moderation happen organically as you interact with a slowly expanding federation circle isn't that great for everyone either. it exposes the admin and the users to unsavory things at least once before the block happens.
i'm hoping we're not satisfied with either approach and we come up with something better for moderating federated networks.
what's tbs btw?
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@tillshadeisgone rejection is painful. we've evolved to feel almost-physical pain upon rejection. it is punishing and often unfair when done to a collective (like people of an instance for maybe one or a few of them), it is punishing when done by a collective. i understand thematic instances doing allowlists, and i don't think there's any problem with that. i understand users doing domain blocks and i don't think there's any problem with that. those are examples of people exercising their personal boundaries a priori.
criticism doesn't have to mean you're doing something right. there are probably many trolls creating noise and drowning legitimate interest in improving the moderation situation, but listen though. people are expressing concern that social decisions are being made for them, or against them, that they don't feel direct involvement in.
and if anyone thinks "just go to another instance", it doesn't work like this. every instance has a different view of fedi, just because federation is not full distribution. a move is not without losses. fragmenting your social media identity across different accounts is similarly not something many enjoy.
i don't think our current blocklist mechanisms for general-purpose or public-forum-like instances should be regarded with the same level of acceptance (as an effective moderation mechanism) as allowlists or user level domain blocks. i see many issues.
i also don't think expressing being upset about e.g. fediblock should be equivalent to, or example of, abusive/troll/harassment behavior...
people would rightfully feel upset at the prospect of arbitrarily losing the opportunity to connect and interact with whole instances of other people. both those of the blocking instance and of the blocked instance. they would feel even more upset at the prospect of such denial being catastrophic and not an instance-by-instance decision, or even user by user decision. that is, it is especially upsetting when those mechanisms feel lump-summed.
and created as they are, there's really not enough emphasis on putting the effort to explain why, with evidence, a certain instance was blocked whole. and currently the focus is on blocking whole lists of instances for varying short-sentence reasons rather than vetting on instance-by-instance basis or tagging instances with a predefined set of tags so that blocking is customizable based on each instance people's set of values.
currently it feels like many instances are their own monarchies doing alliances and driving schisms in the fedi community at large, rather than collectives of people with similar interests drawing their own boundaries which they all agreed on.
i've seen many blocks "by federation" or "by running software", not even association.
also, once added on a blocklist, there's usually no streamlined mechanism to appeal and retract the blocking. admins would usually have to go on an instance-by-instance quest and/or directly contact whomever runs things to explain why that was a bad decision. it's much easier to just say fuck it, their loss.
i've talked in length before about why i think fediblock sucks in its current form. probably raised other points that don't come to mind currently. ironically, even after being invested in improving it, im writing this from a single-user instance that is currently blocked by a whole bunch of instances for one of those false-positive decisions.
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daily reminder that permissive licenses enable corporate vultures. always agpl your code!
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@lain national geographic looking ahh
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hamas is a disturbingly radical militant anti-semitic death-cult, and the find out of the israeli govt's fuck around.
the only way for israel to fix its mess is to sit in front of the organization many palestinians consider their only hope now, on a proper political negotiation table.
that or cause six million deaths of course.
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somewhat related:
"you shouldn't support palestininan struggle because the people there don't respect your rights" is such a classic smug anti-lgbt people's talking point, not one I had to deal with yet, but one i expect to.
it's like they can't even comprehend social context; nor the idea of people you fundamentally disagree with, having human rights just like you.
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@opal @sim i'd rather we have people we can change their minds on the issue of lgbt and women's rights, not dead bodies bombed to bits.
it also fucking sucks when the lgbt community is used all over the world as a scapegoat for governments which have abhorrent foreign policies, no better example than your own nation which are complicit in the bombing of palestinians all the way to stone-age. the uk's historic anti-lgbt laws are what the palestinian authorities are operating from, need i remind you? pinkwashing is the golden word here.
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@opal @sim oppression by fascists is the intersection between palestinians and the community, and the basis for support despite the extreme difference in social values. hell, the plo (which was the leading political movement before israel essentially supported hamas into dominance if not ensured its very creation) is largely understood to be leftist and secular.
even barring the existence of plo and looking only at hamas: one's support is not all-or-nothing kind of thing as I said.
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@opal I'm fortunate enough to be able to do more than keyboard activism. @sim wondered why "a trans woman didn't view Palestine as an enemy", and that's the deeper point in the discussion I engaged with after you've unraveled the initial question.
No need to try and discredit what I said like this.
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@opal @sim it honestly baffles me that you're calling for social progress when the fundamental base for a stable social life hasn't even been laid. what do you expect really?
and i mean, these issues while extremely important don't have any direct relation to the struggle of existence on which the question of support is given. just because you support palestinians in their liberation struggle doesn't mean you support everything they do or value. indeed, to assume so would be extremely naive.
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@lispi314 it's a feedback loop though; corpos can and do influence the development of free software sometimes in ways that are not collectively beneficial or are even collectively harmful.
this is like saying everyone* has access to fresh water, which means some corporate vultures abuse the availability of the resource by bottling it and selling it back to people, but it's ok because surely that won't harm the rest of us since they cannot possibly enclose all the freshwater no matter how hard they try!
@ghast @georgia
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@sim @opal (although it is easy to find safety in exclusionary and exploitative societies if they consider you part of the circle, and many with the privilege will happily do so. i have queer friends who are pro western empires pro capitalism etc.. and i don't blame them)
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@sim @opal ime queer people tend to be to be more aware of oppression, class/minority struggles, and the dangers of fascism, having likely been exposed to it on a personal level.. more-so people on alternative online circles like here.
we may recognize the humanitarian crisis going on, even if the people in said crisis are not necessarily socially progressive enough. That's a battle that can be fought later.
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@coolboymew this transcends language
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@lain #kafe
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I host my pleroma on nixos to get a fluffy tail multiplier
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why are you not using nixos yet
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@lain folds are the gigachad abstraction
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can we bring back the ability to hang out without participating in economy somehow
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