@SuperDicq@thatbrickster >Absolutely not. I think Christianity has ruined many lives throughout history and I believe the world would be a much better place without it.
for the sins that the church did throughout The ages, which went against the new Covenant, i will agree, however, on the doctrine itself i think it has been a boon to both society and the Individual. but of course, the Church is not without fault, especially on the clerical side, Individual Priests throughout the ages have done Harm to people, but every time they did, it was also against the Will of God, perhaps fueled by a wish to fulfill it, but still against the teaching, but also to remember, they are still a minority, they exist, but they are a minority, they are not representative of Priests in general.
>I hate the entire concept of organized religion just as much as some people on here hate the concept capitalism or fascism. i would respect that attitude more if it was backed up by either proper evidence that it is ineffective or harmful, or if it goes against the Teachings. also to note, that one of the things that ultra-capitalism prospers with, is Individualism, in a collective Society there would be proper guard rails for an economic system to make sure that the Individual can't harm the Collective for the pointless pursuit of Pure Greed.
>You shouldn't dedicate your life to something like this and you should honestly feel bad for being unable to find your own meaning in your own life without these fairy tales.
i believe it, when i understood it and i saw the world through it's lens, i saw that the world, although having Evil, Loved me nonetheless, and i Loved it too, and every other human i was able to Love, and even if they screamed at me it didn't hinder me feeling how they Loved me too.
i wasn't a Christian for long either, i am still a Catechumen, i converted to it, i had no "indoctrination" put on me, and i was a skeptic, i looked through the lens of someone skeptical, but wanted to have definitive answers, i put it onto a high level of scrutiny because i wanted it to not be true, but it held up and i believed, and the more i tried to prove it wrong by finding any inconsistency i could, the more i was convinced.
>And I especially have no remorse against people like you who use their religion to judge other people's equally valid lifestyles
i see that these lifestyles hurt the people who pursue them, am i just called then to be silent, ignore it, and not say anything about it, i will not force them, but i will speak up, and if i find myself having to resort to emotional arguments, or that the faith does not provide an explanation to this, then i will shut up.
>including but not limited to polyamory, homosexuality, childfreeness, etc
the first 2 hurt and corrupt the persons view on Sex and Relationships, it is harmful to them themselves, it is not just because God said so that these are not allowed, the Teachings teach a very consistent explanation to why all of these are not allowed, and someone well acquainted with theology doesn't have a hard time explaining them.
also, polyamory, degrades the Unity that a couple has, and it corrupts it, you cannot love 2 people equally, it will lead to jealousy and resentment eventually, and someone has to take the fall in whatever that relationship is.
i have been getting into reading the old Testament, and the story of Jacob and his two Wives Leah and Rachel in Genesis. Jacob wanting to earn their fathers approval to marry Rachel, but getting tricked into marrying Leah, but then eventually also marrying Rachel. Jacob has eyes for Rachel, but she is barren. and Leah is jealous of Rachel, so she has as many kids as she could in hopes that he would start loving her more. but then Rachel gets jealous of Leah, since she was able to have kids. and it's all a big mess, there's resentment and inequality on both sides, nobody is happy.
Childfreeness is not something that is looked down upon in christianity, specifically celibacy and chastity is viewed as a Virtue in fact. of course, having no Children means in most cases that you do not get to have sex at all, really the only exception is if your partner is (involuntarily) infertile.
>Not even to mention being against the basic act of masturbation or USING CONTRACEPTION. Masturbating has hurt me as a person, even before i cared about Christianity, the shame it brought to me was immense, and eventually too much was too much, and eventually i was able to stop doing it. nobody "caught me" or anything, the shame came from inside, and i hated myself for it and i didn't know why, and any justification i tried to give myself didn't stick. the longer that i stayed away from it, the better mentally i was doing too, i was able to actually care about women, and see them like actual human beings.
Contraception and Fornication (which is sex before marriage) i already explained previously, essentially, it is the disconnection of the Act, the Invitation of Life, and spiritual Unity.
if you believe it or not, Incest was viewed as a great Evil, and people didn't know about any of the genetic problems that we today know about, Incest was Viewed as always Rape (a great Evil against humanity that should'nt be Explained) Familial Relationships are special, they are loving, and purely loving and sacrifical, but introducing sex to it not only corrupts it, but also, because of that, that love is then used as a coercion tactic, to note here, is that incest back then consisted mostly of Parent-Child Relationships, in a case of mother and son, either the Mother uses her Position as Mother to use the trust of her Son, or the Love he had of her to guilttrip him into reluctantly participating, vice-versa, and etc.
>You will keep hearing my slander until you stop replying to this thread.
i actually learn a lot from this, it does advance my studies to think and have to put into words my arguments. i can understand if you had negative experiences with christians, i did not have these, as i am joining the faith i only had positive experiences.
i will also reply to your arguments you present, but if i see that you resorted to just being purely emotional then i will stop there.
again, no hate here, i am defending my stance, just as you are.
>"Um achually everyone is a christian even before we wrote the bible because uhm said god so ok???" A Christian is someone who Believes in Jesus Christ as the jewish messiah and the holy Trinity. to do Good from the goodness of your heart, is the Will of God, even if you don't believe in him, the idea is that Humans were created for Good, and every human is capable of Good (this is what "All men are born equal" refers to), but every human is also capable of Bad this is why Free Will is important in the philosophy. this is also the one thing that wasn't explicitly said in the bible, this was interpreted because this was Implicitly conveyed in the Bible, because believe it or not the bible is perfectly consistent, easy to say that it means nothing, until you realize that the bible is a collection of books that were written in the span of Centuries.
>Also the whole argument that Christians are not selfish because they do shit for a higher wisdom is bullcrap. You're still selfish because you do shit for something that you made up.
Christians can be Selfish, they can also go against the Will of God non-Christians can be Charitable, they can also follow the Will of God, a lot even better than Christians themselves.
also, are the early christians who died for the sake of spreading the Word, for following the justice, are they also selfish? wouldn't it have been easier to just pray in quiet and get the gateway to heaven guaranteed instead of risking death and persecution. "but the bible says to spread the word", in reality, many christians are so happy with the News of Salvation (the Good News), that whne they are told to spread the word, and given the go, they cheer for it, it's the kind of joy that makes you want to go to everyone you know and tell them about it, it's that kind of good news.
>I think instead of looking at old ass texts and joining a cult like Christianity you should instead find your own meaning in life and reasons for doing stuff and making the world a better place. It's not that hard.
i have tried and failed, i was miserable and couldn't find meaning in something, when i looked at the world i looked at the things that are dead even in other people i looked at the things in them that are dead, i didn't find anything, only when i looked at the world and looked at what is alive around me i eventually came to understand the world around me better and found higher purpose, eventually i came across God and recognized that the world that was written in the Bible was the World i was inhabiting.
>I'm not sure what the fuck you want me. I already said to you that I do not read the bible. I'm don't know anything about your shitass lorebook, I do not care.
i want you to stop professing about the things i care about, live for and believe in, and then slander it, especially when the arguments definetly don't hold up to scrutiny, i will not just let my faith be slandered and not hold up a defense will i?
i am not telling you to convert or something, again, it's your choice whether you want to convert or not, and also because this is text, i want to emphasise that i am not saying "it's your choice" in some sort of stupid passive-aggressive way.
>But I do know that organized religion is a very outdated concept, an unnecessary power hierarchy and basing your worldview on it
The Vatican does not actually have say over what the faith is, if they decide to remove or add to the bible imagine what kind of outrage that would cause, they can have interpretations, but don't think Christians are sort of drones who listen to whatever the Church says, everything they do is put on a high level of scrutiny.
>usually results in creating the most obnoxious and bigoted people I've ever had to deal including you. i view the Catholic Church with Scrutiny, i always make sure that what they say is held up to scrutiny, the primary source on the faith is, and always will be, the bible.
i don't want to start anger with you either, and again i don't want to convert you or make you "change your ways" or just go "actually you are right all along", i still want to interact online and chill in the fedi like before, what i do ask of you is to stop unfairly slandering the thing i decided to dedicate my life for and that i am passionate about, and i believe that the bible should be held up to the maximum level of scrutiny possible, and if it holds up to a scrutiny, then it has to be said out loud and explained.
i hope you understand what i mean, i don't want to start hate here, i just want to clear up.
yes, morals existed for as long as humans existed, and applies to people who don't know of christ, it applied back then, and still applies to communities today that haven't heard of Christ. people who do Good and do not become hypocrites (for example, machiavellanists), implicitly follow Gods will, even if they are not aware. God looks favorably upon them, because they followed their Conscience (The Holy Spirit) and wished to do true Good.
Even Contrition (Essentially, Internal Regret from performing an evil Action, which, if you feel regret from the Action, God forgives you) applies.
according to the Lumen Gentium of the Vatican (while this is not the bible, it is derived from the bible, and i am of the same opinion for this one) Article 16 states: "Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience."
Christians do not claim that only through God can the Good come, i do not claim that virtues only exist through the knowledge of God, through the virtue of Free Will, every Person can *Choose* to do Good or Evil.
of course, Judeo-Christianity, added extra Morals, which work off and on top of, and help define the Morality and the definition of Good and Evil, Judaism through the Commandments and the Law of Moses, followed up by Christianity expanding on them (through the new Covenant of Christ) to define Good and Evil as something that doesn't arrive from the External Action, but more importantly, the internal drive for that Action.
what i meant by this, is that modern Western Atheism (which btw, is the active rejection of God, seperate from Agnosticism, which is either the lack of knowledge of the concept of a God, or the impartiality to the existence of the concept of a God) still uses Christian Morality as a base to work off. the New Atheist Explanations as to what "Good and Evil" is is laughable, if i asked an Atheist why an action is good or bad, the Answers are Vague, the good action of the person could be truly motivated by a conscience, or it could be motivated to be seen and acknowledged as good (something that Christianity looks down upon, and one that many Atheists themselves acknowledge as bad, but is often rationalized with "a good deed is a good deed").
at the best of cases, they admit that they helped a stranger because they felt empathetic to them, but also, because they have to mask themselves in a constant facade of "Higher Wisdom", they could say, "this is better for society", but this is not true trust built here, now you internally set an expectation for a good change to happen, but this is not how it works, and also set THAT as the reasoning for why people are good, do i help a stranger because i expect to get something out of it here?
no. i help him because he, as a human, is my brother in Christ, and as a human, he has the likeness of God, the highest virtue is to Love a Brother as a Brother, to share the pains that he has and help carry them, and to share this love and Joy i experience and to see others smile is the highest calling, the fulfillment of Holy and Primal Love (Agape). if i am to Love God, and Choose to serve him, then i will also Love and Serve the ones with his Likeness.
a devout Christian knows the Good and Evil when he sees it, if there is the Evil Action which helps thousands of the Poor, then i will not do the Evil deed, i do not have to rationalize my actions with the consequences, the world is broken, and there is plenty of injustice, a good deed could end up in more suffering, but i refuse to be a part of the injustice and then proceed to exalt myself, that is an abomination, not just to God, but to the Human as well.
>I have the exact same opinion about the bible like any other religious text from any other religion. I have not studied each religion individually. I feel like that would be a waste of time.
then you should acknowledge that you do not know anything about the bible, if you see disinformation someone posted about something they don't know about and call them out, and then you you yourself tell your opinion, and implicity state that you are "knowledgable" about a topic when you aren't, then that makes you a hypocrite, i really don't mean to make this out as if i resent you or something, i still like the tetos, and i won't force you to believe something either (that is a sin, and also i don't agree with it). hold onto your opinions, but don't state them as if they are fact when you don't actually know much about it, even if you don't agree with the field of Theology, and have no respect for it.
>I just called it worthless fanfiction which is just an opinion
i was an Atheist too, until one day the realization came over me that God existed and that that same God loved me.
calling it worthless fanfiction also presents it as if also the teachings of morality and principles it instills is also just as fantastical, which even if you are an atheist, your entire moral bedrock is built on it as a foundation, even those that directly go against that foundation, use it as a baseline to do the invert of.
and also, i think your perception of the bible isn't based on any actual "enlightenment" from your own research and critical analysis, but rather on ignorance and just acceptance of what others say about it
do as you please of course, if you really want to, but do be aware that you were told.
it is your choice at the end of the day, and it is not right to force someone (even if i could) to follow the Faith. but if someone chooses to tell lies about the Bible, or the Church, or Christian Theology, then i will speak up and correct it.
>throw your bible verses at me 1st Corinthians 6 12 “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are beneficial. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be dominated by anything. 13 “Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food,”[e] and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is meant not for fornication but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us by his power. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Should I therefore take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that whoever is united to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For it is said, “The two shall be one flesh.”
1 Corinthians 7:3-5 "3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another except perhaps by agreement for a set time, to devote yourselves to prayer, and then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."
Sex is not Merely for the purpose of Procreation, it's also there to connect with your Wife/Husband. in fact, if your wife is unable to conceive, then you can still have sex, however much you want really, the problem comes when you specifically go out of your way to lower the chances of conception (which is why contraception method, or medical is not allowed)
but you have to be open to receiving a Child still, in case that it does result in conception, even if it is super duper unlikely.
also note that it is done to please the other partner, not just for yourself, you are servicing your wife, and your wife is servicing you.
@SuperDicq@thatbrickster >Most countries give huge tax benefits and other crap to people who are married or registered partners, often making it impossible for people who want to live together to do so without making it "official". I think this is really unfair.
you should make it official, if you are life partners then i don't see how that stops you, you have both decided to live together for the rest of your lives. and this is not forcing you either, this is incentive, and this an incentive that is more beneficial because of the current economy, not because it by itself in a vaccuum (especially when the factor is not human nature, but current economical structure)
>Well, I believe you can't have children and make the world a better place at the same time. You're robbing yourself a lot of free time that you can use to do great things for the world and are selfishly using it to make mini-copies of yourself which the world then has to take care of as soon as they leave your house.
Children are a gift, i cannot tell you how amazing they are to have around, i would take a bullet for my sister, because her presence gives me purpose and happiness i can't describe.
and what is there better you can do to "the world" (if we take out God and the mental benefits they give you), then properly raising them to be Good People who have Love, Conscience and Virtue at the forefront. really, many Marriages and Childhoods go so wrong because it started when the parents started knowing themselves Carnally before they started to actually know themselves personally and spiritually, this is why sex before marriage is not allowed, Sex is not something you can do with anyone because it becomes selfish, but if you only do it with the person you actually Love and made a Vow to, then you start thinking about how you can do it for your partner instead, you can't do it with contraception, because when you do it, you also state that you want to be gifted with a child (notice how a lot of seculars, and most importantly individualists emphasise that having a child is a curse, and the chance they call "risk").
with individualism, every "Partner" becomes a beneficiary in a contract, they still call it "Love", and they can do so all they want, but at the end of the day it's a contract promising a binding transaction and fulfillment of the others wants, social needs, emotional sharing, and of course the flesh taking the front stage of the actual incentives.
@Suiseiseki@kaia@SuperDicq@thatbrickster vague as in it specifically prophesized WHEN jesus would be crucified in the book of daniel (the 70 weeks of years prophesy)
as well as the fact that the book of psalms prophesizes the Fact that Jesus was crucified?
if you outright deny God, you deny the Concept of Agape (Holy Love), and you start to throw away Love as a universal concept that applies to humans universally.
look for example at divorce rates, people are incentivized to not give their partner room to explain themselves, and that the marriage should first be about themselves and not about the other half.
>Why do you think it is impossible to care about other people without religion?
i specifically said that it isn't, there are definitely people out there who have not heard of God, but still walk the good path he laid out for humans, God looks at those people with respect.
@Suiseiseki@kaia@SuperDicq@thatbrickster so did you read the first thing i typed on the top of my post, the thing i specifically explained and then sourced, or did you just ignore it?
Christians are not under the Old Covenant, they are under the new one.
>and stone people and cut off hands Jesus specifically liberated us from stoning people "let the one without sin throw the first stone"
let's actually analyze the cutting hands one: matthew 5:29-30
"If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to go into hell."
wow Jesus was sure brutal, until you realize this was a parable, and everyone knows it.
if you have something [like for example, news subscription] and that news always exposes you to negative things which makes you more angry, and more judgemental, then you have to "cut it out", remove it all, it is better for you to throw away the benefits if it makes you more inclined to evil.
every Christian that reads the bible regularly knows it is a parable, how do they know it? because Jesus always throughout the whole gospel speaks in parables, you think when he speaks of evil and good trees, he meant literal evil and good trees, or did he warn about those who preach the word, but do it out of evil, like political might, social adoration, etc.
this ties back into the young rich man, where he asked how he would go to Heaven, he upheld all the commandments, but he knows that despite it he won't make it there, Jesus told him to Sell and Donate ALL his Wealth and follow him. you cannot buy yourself into heaven, The Devil takes Deals, but God has no use for Money or Deals, it was not that he gives out his money that would let him no longer be enslaved and held to the World by it, because they were Chaining him down to Earth and away from God, and the "Rich man left, for he had many Possessions". this is what he meant by "cut off your hand"
but notice how he doesn't explicitly mention that it's bad to force someone to uphold your "Law" (let's ignore the cutting hands part being a parable here).
Romans 14:22 (New Testament) "The faith that you have, have as your own conviction before God. Blessed are those who have no reason to condemn themselves because of what they approve. 23 But those who have doubts are condemned if they eat, because they do not act from faith; for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."
so if someone acts outside of the Faith (including doing good to get to Heaven, instead of because the man you helped is your brother in Christ, despite your differences), then that "Good Action" is null and void.
Ok but Christianity does permit you to do Evil for the sake of spreading it right???
Matthew 7:15-20 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits."
if something brings Evil Fruit, (Death, Hate, Decay) then it is Evil, and look it all ties back beautifully Romans.
Especially nowadays, but also throughout history, there were many Christians who fell short of the Actual Belief, and practiced Evil that was in their Book, both laymen and Clerics.
Heres some more of Matthew, the Verses right before the one i put above
Matthew: 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road is easy that leads to destruction, and there are many who take it. 14 For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it."
also then Matthew: 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.’"
>be applicable no matter what time period and know more things than what primitive men knew
all this i showed you as a response, was from the bible itself, also "Primitive People", The Apostles did not fully believe Jesus, many times the Apostles had Doubt about Christ, they did have Faith, but while he was Alive, they doubted it, and when his Corpse Disappeared, they didn't believe immedietly that he was resurrected, the Apostles themselves, those who were with Jesus, witnessed all the Miracles he did, had doubts about him, in the Gospels themselves. so when even Fishermen questioned Jesus, what does that say to the rest of the world at that time. you really think people back then were stupid and gullible, that they would foolishly believe in Christ, especially when back then that meant being hunted down for it.
Matthew 12:38-41 "38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to him, “Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you.” 39 But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so for three days and three nights the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth. 41 The people of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the proclamation of Jonah, and see, something greater than Jonah is here! "
>All Christian or Catholics needs to sit down and actually read the bibles from start to finish
i could say the same to you, when i was first reading the Bible, i was still skeptical, but when i actually read it, i was convinced
i hear the question: "if God good, then why does Bad exist?", that is a question, that is often presented as a "Gotcha" but in reality, once i had an Answer my Faith was set in place, the question ties back to "Why did God create us?" the answer is so simple, and once i knew the answer it all clicked together.
when i could present a counter to your arguments towards the bible, using only the bible itself (and the website i linked, also quotes and sources the bible just so you know), what does that say about your actual knowledge about Christianity.
@SuperDicq@kaia@thatbrickster human wisdom got us the world we have right now, now every person wants to only care about themselves, and have to have incentives for a society to care about others. Not saying justice and Love is only achievable through joining Christianity, but rather that it is the philosophy of it. To love your enemies too makes a big demand, we can easily say it, we can even say we already do, but is it because we have the social and economic incentives, or because we actually feel Love towards them as our Sibling. The end goal of a christian is to heal those who are hurt, even when they dont realize it themselves, because we acquired the knowledge to realize how it is evil.
"For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”"
And dont think that catholics dont hold any criticism towards the church, they criticise the church the most of any group in reality.
@SuperDicq@kaia@thatbrickster religion is essential to humans, if humans lack a God, they will rise their own Idols. Just because they do not call it a God, does not make it not an Idol, i would say many in the west worship money as an Idol, they will sacrifice so much to attain wealth they could not even hope to spend, all in the belief that greed promises properity
God equipped us all for different purposes, mine seems to be spreading the Good News to women because he made me really liked by Women for some reason. Fucked up honestly, i could do the most retarded shit ever in front of them and their reaction isnt "wow such a retard" but instead "isnt he such a free spirit?"
Thankfully God recognized that fact and gave me autism so that i wont squander my chastity before i recognized its importance
@tyler@BasedLunatic@Blouie@Nudhul amen nigga im not white tho, ethnically turk. Tho I have been helping RW movements by basically giving them an ok to be racist around me. I am tired of giving other second generation migrants more chances to get their shit together, and want them deported, the fact that i get grouped up with the majority of these cockroaches because they share some blood with me pisses me off to no end. Its not even a race thing to me tbh, i just hate these niggas so much, i am tired of talking to them, and tired of trying to convince them to get their shit together. Niggas wanna be "just like the swiss", but what they mean by that is rights, not actual civic responsibility (which does actually include actually working and being a good member of the local community). To me, having less rights is whatever compared to having less responsibility, i demand tgat i have responsibility and be accountable to the same consequences if i fail.
@BowsacNoodle love dogs, dogs are lovely. There is a man who walks his dog every now and then, the owner got him from a pet home and believes that the previous owner abused the dog, and he believes the owner was a strong/tall man, because the dog gets very jumpy at every tall man he meets. Which meant me, so whenever we meet his dog he runs to me and gets aggressive at me. With time and patience bobby calms down, and becomes loving and playing, everytime we met the time he needs to calm down gets smaller, the first time we needed almost 10 minutes, and the last time it was just a few seconds until hed recognize me and calmed down. The respect you have for bobby increases, when you realize, he IS deathly scared of Tall people, but he goes to them and tries to scare them instead because he is trying to protect his Owner from (perceived) danger.
Idk why Dogs love me a lot, it is pretty much a common occurence that someone walks their dog without having the leashed, and then it walks to me, i stop and look at it, and it immedietly starts wanting to play.
it all does it in this subversive way where, everyone can agree that it is true when it comes to extremes, but the message it tries to implant onto people is that they should get more individualistic, cut or weaken connections with others, and be more selfish.