Notices by Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦 (rysiek@mstdn.social)

@ciaranmak I remember the Yanukovych elections. I also remember Maidan, and I visited Mezhyhirya to attend an investigative journalism conference – with people who went in there minutes after Yanukovych fled

And who then read through the documents he tried to destroy by dumping them into the yacht port on the premises (they dried them out in his own sauna). So yeah, I have all this context.

@iju @gubi

@ciaranmak negotiation is and always has been on the table. Problem is: one of the sides repeatedly refused to engage in it in good faith. And this might surprise you: it's not the side that got invaded!

You used a rhetorical device to throw a red herring and attempt to derail the thread.

I am eagerly waiting for you to state your position on what should happen in Ukraine.

And, for that matter, what should happen in Palestine, since you brought it up.

@iju @gubi

@iju or, to use your example:

"What about Guatemala in 1952" in the context of a conversation about Soviet atrocities in Czechoslovakia 1948 – I would call that whataboutism.

"I agree that Soviets are guilty of atrocities in Czechoslovakia 1948, but the stuff capitalist companies did in Guatemala in 1952 is easily comparable" in the same conversation – I would not call whataboutism.

@gubi @ciaranmak

@iju if you state your own position, you become vulnerable to arguments and criticism in a debate.

If you don't, you're just coasting, exploiting the vulnerability of the other person who *did* state their position. You're free to flip-flop, "just ask questions", and use any other kinds of eristics.

So, when I see something like "what about Palestine", which lacks a clear statement about the main topic, that to me looks like an attempt to misdirect, not have a conversation.

@gubi @ciaranmak

@iju oh, no question about that, but to me whataboutism is more about how a given given topic is used in a conversation.

I think there's a crucial difference between:

- just throwing the other complex topic into the conversation;

…and:

- stating one's position *and then* mentioning the other thing.

"What about Palestine" is a completely different thing than "I agree/disagree with you on Ukraine, but wonder what you think on Palestine, then?"

@gubi @ciaranmak

@enoch_exe_inc it's nice to have this simple, clean division of people into "conservatives" and "liberals". I happen not to identify with either though. Not sure why you keep throwing these terms around.

@enoch_exe_inc I agree with the desire to not prolong the war.

I simply disagree that making the war end on Russian terms (which stopping to arm Ukraine would cause) is a way to actually stop it.

We literally tried that exact strategy in that exact place in 2014. And now here we are.

@maxwainwright please don't call people names in my mentions. That's completely unnecessary and does not help at all.

@Natasha_Jay win!

@enoch_exe_inc @mcv

"Those supporters of the bullied kid are violence maniacs! They keep using violence to try to intervene and stop the bully!"

This is really incredibly tiresome and repetitive. You really need better talking points at this stage, we've been through all of this a bunch of times. :blobcatcoffee:

@enoch_exe_inc @mcv how is it that supporters of a right of an invaded, weaker country are called "war maniacs", and not the supporters of the much bigger, invading country?

And how, pray tell, should the peace be achieved if one side is constantly breaking agreements it signed, from the Budapest Memorandum, through Minsk Agreements?

How, exactly, do you think there can be peace in Ukraine, if Putin's stated goal is for Ukraine not to exist?

@enoch_exe_inc @mcv thank Dog Russian labor is not exploited, Russian arms manufacturers are not making a killing, and natural resources in territories already colonized by Russia are not being exploited!

How is this never part of the conversation, somehow?

How is it not part of the conversation that Kremlin attempts a double genocide: that of Ukrainians, but also that of peoples from Dagestan, Buryatia, and so on?
https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/09/23/russia-partial-military-mobilization-ethnic-minorities/

@wronglang I usually don't see much of them, but recently they figured out they might try to capitalize on the fear around yet another empty threat of using nuclear weapons by Kremlin, it seems. 🤷♀️

Same as the last 5 or whatever times Kremlin threatened such use.

@liilliil you can twist yourself in as many knots as you wish.

But referring to Kyiv using a name that Ukrainians ask people not to use is just a deeply petty, disrespectful thing to do. 🤷♀️

You like this look, fine by me. But I don't think we have anything left to discuss. Have a good night.

@migurski already! Man, thatw as fast, I posted this like 5min ago!

:blobcatpeek:

Seriously though, same. And will probably listen to it again soon.

@liilliil the "original name" of Istanbul was Lygos, and yet we recognize the right of the people who live there to call it whatever they very well please – and insist we also call it such.

So when Ukrainians tell me they prefer Kyiv to be called Kyiv, I call it Kyiv. It's just common decency.

incidentally, denying this kind of basic agency to Ukrainians is a mainstay of Kremlin's propaganda around this war.

For anyone who in good faith wants to better understand the deep background of Russian invasion in Ukraine, this is *the* resource:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNewfxO7LhBoz_1Mx1MaO6sw_

It's truly captivating, and dispels a bunch of myths, half-truths, and pieces of disinformation around Ukraine and the war, by means of a deep-dive into the history.

I linked to this a bunch of times in the responses to responses below, but it is too important and too valuable to linger in the depths.

#Ukraine #Russia #RussiaUkraineWar

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@catsalad bean there? done that.

@liilliil @midgephoto no, it's not the same name. Just as "Kiev" is not the same name as "Kyiv".

If a person tells you they prefer to be referred to in a particular way, instead of the way you referred to them before, you apologize and comply.

Same with a polity that tells you that they prefer to use their own spelling of their capital city, rather than that of their invader and colonizer.