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@amerika @korsier @Cosmic @cjd @FourOh-LLC @verita84 @toiletpaper

Here it gets tricky. One could argue that survival brings pleasure. If survival meant eternal pain, I think few would be willing to survive. Pleasure and pain are also multidimensional. In order to survive, some activities are engaged it which produce pleasure.

As for the old human favourite, I think science has proven that pain and pleasure are distinct and not defined in terms of each other.