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1. Embed this notice
   George Takei :verified: 🏳️‍🌈🖖🏽 (georgetakei@universeodon.com)'s status on Monday, 22-Jan-2024 08:22:00 JST George Takei :verified: 🏳️‍🌈🖖🏽

   Bet he wasn’t expecting this response.

   • clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 22-Jan-2024 08:23:24 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     @georgetakei

     Hahaha, if this is an hourly worker and he isnt paying overtime this is a completely valid response :) lol

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 22-Jan-2024 23:13:46 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Scott Guertin

     @scott_guertin

     Salaried employees are expected to make a fix amount no matter how much they are paid. That is the bargain.

     @georgetakei

   • Embed this notice
     Scott Guertin (scott_guertin@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 22-Jan-2024 23:13:47 JST Scott Guertin

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo @georgetakei Nah, it's valid no matter what kind of worker they are. The idea that we should be emotionally loyal to employers is patently absurd.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 00:56:30 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Scott Guertin

     @scott_guertin

     No one said anything about "greater commitment". Only that a salaried worker's job isnt a 9-5 job. They are expected to work longer hours when needed, sometimes do work after hours, and in exchange they get paid when they take off like vacations.

     @georgetakei

   • Embed this notice
     Scott Guertin (scott_guertin@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 00:56:31 JST Scott Guertin

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo @georgetakei That doesn't mean that they're obligated to have some sort of greater commitment to their job outside of their assigned duties.

     Company loyalty is for suckers.

     Sexy Moon and clacke like this.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 01:43:00 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Scott Guertin

     @scott_guertin

     Did you, no where in that quote image does it say anything about "greater commitment"

     @georgetakei

   • Embed this notice
     Scott Guertin (scott_guertin@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 01:43:01 JST Scott Guertin

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo @georgetakei My dude, did you only read the comment of the OP and not what it was responding to?

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 01:45:18 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Scott Guertin

     @scott_guertin

     Oh you meant greater than the commitment they currently have, or a greater commitment than they do to their personal life?

     @georgetakei

   • Embed this notice
     Scott Guertin (scott_guertin@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 01:45:19 JST Scott Guertin

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo @georgetakei "I don't like that their commitment lasts for work hours only."
     Implying he wishes they had more commitment.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 01:46:48 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Scott Guertin

     @scott_guertin

     Ahh then yes it is saying that. And since a salaried employee person is expected to have commitment outside of standard hours, how do you know their current level of commitment is appropriate to that?

     @georgetakei

   • Embed this notice
     Scott Guertin (scott_guertin@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 01:46:49 JST Scott Guertin

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo @georgetakei
     Greater than the commitment they currently have.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 02:17:08 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Scott Guertin

     @scott_guertin

     By definition salary means you dont have fixed hours, yu work when your needed, including after hours. You dont get extra pay. The bargain is the reverse is true, when you dont work a day you still get paid.

     @georgetakei

   • Embed this notice
     Scott Guertin (scott_guertin@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 02:17:09 JST Scott Guertin

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo @georgetakei Other than potentially being on call, being salary does not obligate you to take work home with you.

   • Embed this notice
     pies (pies@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 05:34:20 JST pies

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • Scott Guertin

     @freemo @scott_guertin @georgetakei No, they are not. That's why we have something called "overtime pay". Because work in excess of agreed hours is something that is compensated separately.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 07:13:37 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • pies
     • Scott Guertin

     @pies

     Sakary employees do **not** get overtime pay, by definition a salary employee doesnt even have an hourly rate they have a yearly rate. Overtime is only an idea that applies to hourly employees.

     @scott_guertin @georgetakei

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 08:10:00 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • LisPi
     • Scott Guertin

     @lispi314

     They literally get that back in equal measure. While a salaried empl,oyee doesnt have fixed hours or an hourly rate, and may be expected to work extra hours for free, they also get paid time off. When they take a day or even a whole month off they still get their full pay. It works both ways.

     @scott_guertin @georgetakei

   • Embed this notice
     LisPi (lispi314@udongein.xyz)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 08:10:02 JST LisPi

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • Scott Guertin
     @scott_guertin @georgetakei @freemo Salaried employees have some very specific legal requirements that they have to accept, anything beyond that is foolishly giving away one's life to an employer that will never return such a favor.
     clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 08:26:47 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • LisPi
     • Scott Guertin

     @lispi314

     Hardly, not all moments in one’s life are equal and the strain on one’s body from accumulated overtime and stress is greater than the relief of a similar amount of time of rest.

     If that is true for you then dont take a salaried position, and make sure to take a job that doesnt involve overtime. For many of us the opposit eis true. Working overtime for extended periods and then have longer periods of time off to compensate is FAR more relaxing than working every day on a 9-5.

     You do you, but dont act like financially speaking it doesnt work both ways.

     So an equivalent time exchange… isn’t an equivalent exchange in bodily damages. And the money is far from enough to compensate. (Nevermind that for many damaged organs one quite simply cannot buy a replacement for any amount of money.)

     Then work hourly and not salary if you feel that way.

     More to the point, there is no (reasonable) expectation of loyalty from an employer (layoffs purely for investment figures are commonplace), so why should any of the employees provide such a thing to the employer?

     Who said anything about loyalty. The equivelant of not being able to layoff people would be saying employees cant quit. Loyalty is not expected from eithe rside.

     @scott_guertin @georgetakei

   • Embed this notice
     LisPi (lispi314@udongein.xyz)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 08:26:49 JST LisPi

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • Scott Guertin
     @freemo @georgetakei @scott_guertin Hardly, not all moments in one's life are equal and the strain on one's body from accumulated overtime and stress is greater than the relief of a similar amount of time of rest.
     
     So an equivalent time exchange... isn't an equivalent exchange in bodily damages. And the money is far from enough to compensate. (Nevermind that for many damaged organs one quite simply cannot buy a replacement for any amount of money.)
     
     More to the point, there is no (reasonable) expectation of loyalty from an employer (layoffs purely for investment figures are commonplace), so why should any of the employees provide such a thing to the employer?
     clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 09:05:25 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • LisPi
     • Scott Guertin

     @lispi314

     The vast majority of people would a lot more hard-pressed to quit their job on a whim without ending-up with significant problems than their employer would be in laying them off. The power relationship is very strongly skewed here.

     So? I am not even sure what your disagreeing with or how you think that is relevant to any points I made.

     As for the earlier statement I made, it is true both for chronic work-acquired injuries and for accumulated organ-damage from stress. The perceived relaxation doesn’t indicate rest remotely approaching that sufficient to compensate.

     That makes a lot of assumptions such as the idea that work equates to stress and damage. True for some, not for others, again pick a job that offers you the right balance for you. I myself find work fun, I would and do do it for free, the fact people are willing to pay me a bunch of money to do it is simply a bonus.

     The heart itself cannot cope with all that much sleep deprivation and stress in a short period (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karoshi). Unsustainable high-effort isn’t sustainable, that’s simply not how human bodies work.

     No one is suggesting answering a call or two after hours or occasionally working a little later is the same as sleep deprivation or even a stressor, particularly when it is offset with relaxing vacations you get paid to take.

     @scott_guertin @georgetakei

   • Embed this notice
     LisPi (lispi314@udongein.xyz)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 09:05:26 JST LisPi

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • Scott Guertin
     @freemo @georgetakei @scott_guertin > You do you, but dont act like financially speaking it doesnt work both ways.
     
     > Who said anything about loyalty. The equivelant of not being able to layoff people would be saying employees cant
     quit. Loyalty is not expected from eithe rside.
     
     The vast majority of people would a lot more hard-pressed to quit their job on a whim without ending-up with significant problems than their employer would be in laying them off. The power relationship is *very* strongly skewed here.
     
     As for the earlier statement I made, it is true both for chronic work-acquired injuries and for accumulated organ-damage from stress. The perceived relaxation doesn't indicate rest remotely approaching that sufficient to compensate.
     
     The heart itself cannot cope with all that much sleep deprivation and stress in a short period (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karoshi). Unsustainable high-effort isn't sustainable, that's simply not how human bodies work.
     
     That's not to say 9-5 is exactly healthy either, because it isn't.
     clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 09:07:43 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • LisPi
     • Scott Guertin

     @lispi314

     True but irrelevant. No one is suggesting a person do 40 hours worth of work in 5 minutes. I'd also be very curious to hear how that would even be possible.

     Kinda obsurd we went from "yea a salary worker might occasionally need to do work outside of 9-5" to "oh my god is he working constantly and going to die from lack of sleep and his organs will shut down!"... lets stop being absurd.

     @scott_guertin @georgetakei

   • Embed this notice
     LisPi (lispi314@udongein.xyz)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 09:07:44 JST LisPi

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • LisPi
     • Scott Guertin
     @scott_guertin @georgetakei @freemo To give an analogy for the high-effort aspect: Consuming 3g of caffeine in a 7 day week is relatively safe. Consuming it in the span of 5 minutes will get you hospitalized.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 09:22:59 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • LisPi
     • Scott Guertin

     @lispi314

     A few days of work-related sleep-deprivation (crunch time?) can very easily lead to death. Doing the same amount of work over the span of a week or two usually won’t.

     Who said anything about being allowed to work an employee so hard they cant sleep or need to cut their sleep short… no one in this thread… again why are you bringing up things no one is even discussing? To what end?

     I’m disagreeing with the implication that there’s anything approaching equality in the power dynamics involved. What reprocity there is doesn’t reach that far.

     I pointed out the pay worked both ways, you work extra days you dont get extra pay, you dont work a day you dont get less pay. That is a correct statement, full stop. Why your going off on matters of equality int he power dynamic makes no sense, I get your trying to make that point, but that point is not even being discussed in the thread, so what makes you feel that is in any way relevant to what I said?

     Your position seems to rely on what, to me, is a fairly absurd expectation one can find work that is non-straining, pleasant and not under abusive conditions.

     Certainly describes most job I ever worked, it also describes about 15 positions I’m hiring for right now, at least to most people. Me and my team are having a blast, I feel bad though that you’ve never found that, truly.

     In quite a few places, that would be a few hours. That adds up, especially with commute.

     As you pointed out, spread out is not the same as all at once. an hour extra here and there does not add up to sleep deprivation and failing organs, especially when its offset with paid vacations.

     @scott_guertin @georgetakei

   • Embed this notice
     LisPi (lispi314@udongein.xyz)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 09:23:00 JST LisPi

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • Scott Guertin
     @freemo @georgetakei @scott_guertin A few days of work-related sleep-deprivation (crunch time?) can very easily lead to death. Doing the same amount of work over the span of a week or two usually won't.
     
     Karoshi is the acute type and most dramatic example, but damage to long-term life expectancy (or desirable life-expectancy, one can be stuck miserable for a while longer) happens at much lower thresholds.
     
     >> You do you, but dont act like financially speaking it doesnt work both ways.
     
     > So? I am not even sure what your disagreeing with or how you think that is relevant to any points I made.
     
     I'm disagreeing with the implication that there's anything approaching equality in the power dynamics involved. What reprocity there is doesn't reach that far.
     
     ---
     
     Your position seems to rely on what, to me, is a fairly absurd expectation one can find work that is non-straining, pleasant and not under abusive conditions.
     
     > working a little later
     
     In quite a few places, that would be a few hours. That adds up, especially with commute.
   • Embed this notice
     Scott Guertin (scott_guertin@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 09:26:20 JST Scott Guertin

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • LisPi

     @freemo @lispi314 @georgetakei such a romantic view of what it's like to be a salaried employee. Believe it or not, at good companies, even the salaried employees get to have personal lives without having to use their PTO.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 09:26:20 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • LisPi
     • Scott Guertin

     @scott_guertin

     Thats a weird way of agreeing with me while trying to sound like you didnt.

     No one is claiming they dont "get to have personal lives", only that your job has flexible hours and your personal life gets the same flexibility. And no at a good company there is no such thing as "using PTO".. at good companies when you work late one day as a salaried employer you can come in late the next or even take a day off. And no when you do it wont count against your PTO in fact you probably dont even have a fixed PTO, you take off what you want within reason.

     @lispi314 @georgetakei

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 09:42:36 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • clacke
     • Scott Guertin

     @clacke

     That doesnt even make sense, how can you paid more when you arent even paid an hourly rate? Even iof there was some way the law was worded this way it would just mean that you arent salaried, if you have a hourly rate at all, and thus there is a sense of "overtime" by definition you arent salary.

     @georgetakei @scott_guertin

   • Embed this notice
     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 09:42:37 JST clacke

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • Scott Guertin

     @freemo Maybe that's the norm where you are, but in many places a salaried worker is supposed to have regulated working hours and paid overtime at a rate higher than regular hours.

     @georgetakei @scott_guertin

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 09:43:42 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • clacke

     @clacke

     Right, unpaid uncompensated overtime, with fixed pay when you work less hours in a week is just called salary pay. If you get paid for overtime, or if there is even a concept of overtime then you simply arent a salary worker then by definition.

   • Embed this notice
     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 09:43:43 JST clacke

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     "I pointed out the pay worked both ways, you work extra days you dont get extra pay, you dont work a day you dont get less pay."

     @freemo That's a fair trade. This employer is looking for "commitment" that lasts beyond working hours. That's douchebag code for unpaid, un-otherwise-compensated overtime work.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 10:29:47 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • pies
     • halogen alchemist
     • Scott Guertin

     @black6

     First time I ever heard of any salaried employee getting overtime. How does that work considering a salaried employee doesnt have an hourly wage defined?

     @scott_guertin @pies @georgetakei

   • Embed this notice
     halogen alchemist (black6@gleasonator.com)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 10:29:48 JST halogen alchemist

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • pies
     • Scott Guertin
     @freemo @pies @scott_guertin @georgetakei It depends. When I was a NASA engineer on the GS pay scale, I was salaried, but I had to fill out a time card every pay period. Mostly to account for the different programs to which I got assigned, but I also got paid overtime for each hour over the standard 80 I was required to work (two week pay period). When I was a brewer I was an hourly employee, but I earned vacation time. When I was in the Army I had to burn vacation time mid-tour while being on duty for 50 fucking weekends. I was salaried, but effectively earning below the poverty line for the amount of hours I was "at work." Now I'm truly salaried and take as long of lunch breaks as I can get away winh and leave as early as possible to get my effective wage as high as possible.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 10:35:40 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • clacke

     @clacke Thats very very strange, in my years of both working and hiring I never heard of a salaried worker getting overtime. But some people claim they got it, so I stand corrected.

     That said I dont think any salaried worker should expect it if it isnt part of their contract. If you are salaried under most circumstances you should expect to work extra for free, but in exchange you get advantages.

   • Embed this notice
     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 10:35:42 JST clacke

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo Where I come from, overtime is a thing only for salaried workers, because it's time that goes outside your default working hours, it's an exception for exceptional circumstances and offers exceptional pay, 1.5–2 × your prorated hourly pay (monthly salary / 165 h), or 1.5–2 hours of comp time off.

     If you're an hourly worker there's no "overtime", everything is just "time", possibly at different rates still.

     But ok, it's clear that we are from different markets and don't speak the same domain language, neither of us is right or wrong, but as long as we're aware of the difference in terminology we should be fine.

     I think we're agreeing that the deal for the employment should be clear and fair, either you get more pay if you work more, or you work less some other time.

     Where we disagree (?) is that it's 100% obvious to me that this person is disappointed that workers aren't working more than they were paid to ("commitment" outside "working hours").

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 10:36:33 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • pies
     • halogen alchemist
     • Scott Guertin

     @black6

     So very strange.

     @scott_guertin @pies @georgetakei

   • Embed this notice
     halogen alchemist (black6@gleasonator.com)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 10:36:34 JST halogen alchemist

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • pies
     • Scott Guertin
     @freemo @scott_guertin @pies @georgetakei One of the oddities of working for the federal government. Uncle Sam demands his 40 hours a week, but every action has a reaction so he'll pay you for working over. My wage was defined by my annual salary divided by 2080 hours. At first I earned time-and-a-half overtime, then by the time I left NASA I had risen enough in the GS scale that my overtime was just straight time. Better than nothing!
   • Embed this notice
     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 13:34:39 JST clacke

     in reply to

     • JR Freeman

     @JRFreeman What motivates seeing a thing you enjoy, then reposting that thing for others to enjoy, I wonder.

     I don't hang on reddit, it's the first time I see this screenshot.

   • Embed this notice
     JR Freeman (jrfreeman@stranger.social)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 13:34:40 JST JR Freeman

     in reply to

     @georgetakei
     This Quora post is years old. It gets reposted on Reddit constantly. It's been getting reposted here recently. Now you're reposting it. I don't get it. Mastodon doesn't have karma. What motivates this pattern of only reposting mass-appealing content from other sites?

   • Embed this notice
     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 13:34:42 JST clacke

     in reply to

     And there is still no "commitment" outside normal working hours, it's a discussion "ok, sorry, we're gonna need to do this thing on a Saturday morning, who's in?"

     The way the Quora poster phrased it, it sounds like they're paying for 40 hours and hoping for 50.

   • Embed this notice
     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 13:35:25 JST clacke

     in reply to

     • Casper 👻

     @caspercdn 2 employees that are not taking his crap.

     @georgetakei

   • Embed this notice
     Casper 👻 (caspercdn@mstdn.social)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 13:35:26 JST Casper 👻

     in reply to

     @georgetakei A CEO with 2 whole employees?

   • Embed this notice
     pies (pies@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 17:47:03 JST pies

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • halogen alchemist
     • Scott Guertin

     @freemo @black6 @scott_guertin @georgetakei At my company you calculate your hourly wage from salary divided by 30*8 then multiply it by 1.5 to get the overtime pay rate. Many companies expect people to work for free, like you've said, but they're not good companies.

   • Embed this notice
     Kneworldodor (kneworldodor@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:58:24 JST Kneworldodor

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • Scott Guertin

     @freemo @scott_guertin @georgetakei if long hours are standard, despite agreed business hours, not when needed with proper plan and staffing it's just legalized time theft.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:58:24 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Kneworldodor
     • Scott Guertin

     @kneworldodor

     Thats generally not the case for salary unless explicitly stated in a contract (in which case it isnt threft). Typically you are expected to work whatever hours are needed to finish your job on time, but you are also welcome to exchange that by working fewer hours during down time. Typically you are expected to average 40 hours a week, where some weeks might be 60 hours others may be 20.

     @scott_guertin @georgetakei

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 22:17:44 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • clacke
     • Kneworldodor

     @kneworldodor

     Thats not time theft, at least not if it is within the bounds of the contract. If your contract says the time must average to 40 hours (Which is common) then it isnt time theft as it balances out int he end. Now if that isnt in the contract then it isnt time theft because thats what you agreed to when you were hired, and if you were smart you were sure to negotiate a higher price as a consequence of that.

     Now if you choose to negotiate a very poor contract for yourself that still isnt theft, thats you making poor life decisions when accepting a job.

     @clacke

   • Embed this notice
     Kneworldodor (kneworldodor@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 22:17:45 JST Kneworldodor

     in reply to

     • clacke
     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo @clacke theory and practice are different. In practice many people are loaded up with extra work because getting it done by salaried workers gets a larger return without any extra cost to the company. It's externalizing extra costs. Time theft.

     clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 22:26:12 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Kneworldodor
     • Scott Guertin

     @kneworldodor

     I have worked as an employee as well as been a C-level manager (usually CTO or CIO) in many countries including quite a few european countries, the middle east, and USA.

     As I said, if salaried employees are being abused with really high overtime and not enough pay, then they negotiated a shitty contract. Lots of people self-sabotage and negotiate bad contracts for themselves. But thats on them. At every stage of my career I have always negotiated strongly and as a result I have never had these issues. I would generally negotiate very high salaries, work the overtime, and negotiated 3 month vacation blocks to oppose the overtime (which was my standard as a Sr. dev and team lead). In cases where I couldnt negotiate the vacation time I eitehr ensured to put time limits in my contract or if i felt i could handle the excessive work would negotiate very high salaries to make up for it.

     When I hire people I always as the hiring manager make it a point to keep my workers to an average of 40 hour weeks just to keep them at their best. Overtime happens, but when it does its offset by extra down time.

     @scott_guertin @georgetakei

   • Embed this notice
     Kneworldodor (kneworldodor@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 22:26:13 JST Kneworldodor

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • Scott Guertin

     @freemo @scott_guertin @georgetakei are you in one of the less predatory environments? Europe maybe? I'm watching the salaried workers around me get burned out regularly. Sometimes they don't even get past orientation before they realize what's going on and quit. Take, no give.

   • Embed this notice
     pies (pies@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 05:28:04 JST pies

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • halogen alchemist
     • Scott Guertin

     @freemo @black6 @scott_guertin @georgetakei To be honest I've never heard of overtime pay for hourly employees. How does that work? Where does the overtime start? It's just more hours.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 05:32:19 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • pies
     • halogen alchemist
     • Scott Guertin

     @pies

     By law, an by default, overtime is any time worked beyond 40 hours in a week. Overtime by law must be paid at 1.5x the base rate by default in most states.

     There are of course exceptions on a per-contract or per-state basis. But thats the standard.

     @black6 @scott_guertin @georgetakei