A.R. Moxon, Verified Duck 🦆
"Hey, get out of your lib echo chamber! Talk to people you disagree with and learn something new!"
"OK. Let's talk about racism."
"Racism? DEMOCRATS are the party of the Confederacy."
"OK. Let's talk the Confederacy."
"IT IS HERTIAGE NOT HATE!"
"OK. Let's talk about hate."
"You want to talk hate? I don't hate the sinner, I hate the sin."
"OK. let's talk sin."
"It's freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion."
"OK. Let's talk religion ...
A.R. Moxon, Verified Duck 🦆
"OK, let's talk about precedent."
"Precedent is whatever it needs to be to sit reactionary judges."
"OK. Let's talk about judges."
"Oh so now it's CORRUPT to have rich friends??"
"OK. Let's talk about corruption."
"Hunter Biden. Hunter Biden.Hunter BidenHunter BidenHunter Bidenhunterbidenhunterbiden—
"I'm sorry. Are you saying we are currently NOT in an echo chamber?"
"Exactly. Hope you've learned a lot."
"In way, yes."
A.R. Moxon, Verified Duck 🦆
"OK. Let's talk about gay people."
"I don't have a problem with THEM. I just don't want that lifestyle shoved down my throat. The real problem are gender groomers."
"OK. Let's talk about trans people."
"I'm not being hateful, I'm just so protective of women's spaces."
"OK. Let's talk about women's spaces."
"WOMEN'S spaces? What about MEN's spaces? Why are we attacking MEN and their SPACE?"
"Uh.... OK. Let's talk about ... space?"
A.R. Moxon, Verified Duck 🦆
"Space should be as privatized as our army and justice system and every other aspect of American life."
"OK. Let's talk about American life."
"American life? LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT. I won't take a knee. Never apologize! Prayer back in school!"
"OK. Let's talk about school."
"We must teach only our version of American history, the one that makes our children feel comfortable."
A.R. Moxon, Verified Duck 🦆
"OK. Let's talk about children."
"Our most precious resource. They must be protected at all costs."
"OK. Let's talk about costs."
"They'd better go down to zero. Why should I have to pay for some kid at a school where my kid doesn't even go. No free lunches."
"OK. Let's talk about lunch."
"Your hungry child is not my responsibility."
"OK. Let's talk about responsibility."
"THESE PROSECUTIONS OF MY PRESIDENT FOR CRIMES ARE UNPRECEDENTED."
A.R. Moxon, Verified Duck 🦆
"Religion? You DEMONrats who want Jesus out of the school who are the real fascists."
"OK. Let's talk fascists ..."
"Fascists? Nazis were socialists, so socialists are the real Nazis."
"OK. Let's talk Nazis."
"We must give them a platform and hear them out, even if we disagree. That's freedom of speech."
"OK. Let's talk speech."
"Shut down all libraries that have books about gays."
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
Will look at it later on.
Remember something about Socractic quesitons. Long time ago.
Thanks.
Jeramee
@whatzaname @theogrin @migriverat @lillyfinch @JuliusGoat
Socratic Questions. This technique is about using dialogue to find truth. It often entails asking questions about small details to help the other person find the truth through their own answers. With my students, I often feel like my questions are just stairs: each one is necessary to climb before the next, and each takes them a bit closer to the answer.
Reality. We can't reach everyone. Don't fear leaving toxic relationships.
5\end.
Jeramee
@whatzaname @theogrin @migriverat @lillyfinch @JuliusGoat
@HistoPol
Is this thread helpful?
Jeramee
@whatzaname @theogrin @migriverat @lillyfinch @JuliusGoat
Let's Assume It's True is a good technique. Assume the claim is true, then follow its logic until it disproves itself. Beau of the 5th Column on YouTube is great at this.
Space. Control the space. If additional people are commenting, it's ok to ask them to refrain to keep a calmer, less confrontational conversation. (You may want to ask them through private message, at your discretion.)
Also, you can pause the conversation. 3\x
Jeramee
@whatzaname @theogrin @migriverat @lillyfinch @JuliusGoat
Space cont'd. Make up an excuse to step away from the conversation temporarily, if needed, to give the other person time to calm down. Don't be afraid to apologize & restate a comment that was misinterpreted.
Questions. Learn to focus on using questions. Ask the other person to explain what they mean, or why X is important, or why they believe Y is true. (Seek first to understand, then to be understood).
Socratic Questions. 4\x
molly in missouri
@theogrin @migriverat @lillyfinch @Jeramee @JuliusGoat
You're right! And the thing i regret even *more* than wasting my time and energy on someone who is intentionally wasting my time, is discovering i was irritated and dismissive towards someone who was genuine.
This conversation has clarified something for me: if i had a list of informative videos and/or books and other written work - not spoon-fed stuff either, if you want to be sincere, you can do the work - then maybe I could just say -here, if you are interested, pick through and read some stuff.
But when you're done, don't come back to *me* to talk about it, but instead walk around in your actual world and see if you can see any evidence supporting one side or the other.
That might be the best I can offer, without doing still more real harm to my own mental well-being by engaging with bad actors.
Jeramee
@whatzaname @theogrin @migriverat @lillyfinch @JuliusGoat
Focus, Facts, Space, & Questions.
First, remember that tone is often misinterpreted with text. Review what you write b4 posting, imagine how it could be misread, & adjust.
Focus on one issue. The bamboozled will switch topics as a defense mechanism when you begin to show their ideas are bad. MAGA deflect as a technique to dominate. Refuse to deviate, if for no other reason than to drive MAGA insane, but also to focus on reality.
1\x
Jeramee
@whatzaname @theogrin @migriverat @lillyfinch @JuliusGoat
Facts. People are allowed their own opinions, not their own facts. It's ok to say that something isn't true, esp when you can provide a link\cite\ evidence.
If they go off on conspiracies, request them to provide facts and dismantle them, but one at a time. You can require them to acknowledge a disproved fact before continuing, otherwise they are simply delusional & there's no point continuing.
Let's Assume It's True is a good 2\x
Jennifer Kayla | Theogrin 🦊
@migriverat @lillyfinch @Jeramee @JuliusGoat
Knotty problem, because one of the chief goals of those disingenuous fucksticks is to drive us to distraction. Even the most patient of us aren't going to want to answer the same question in a thousand different ways when half the queriers are making a point of doing so in bad faith, at least not without some loss of temper and dwindling patience.
(Can you tell I work in customer service?)
That, to them, is the game: to raise the same questions as those who genuinely want to know, but in ways which make it less likely that we're going to provide useful information to anyone who might be swayed thereby. And it's unfortunately not a trivial issue to solve...
Ugh (“ugh”)
@lillyfinch @theogrin @Jeramee @JuliusGoat OK, this was a spontaneous rant and I could and will do a better job at this, but I’mma keep resurfacing this because it’s something I think someone may have solved at some point, but I’ve never heard.
The problem I struggle with isn’t “how do you respond to disingenuous fucksticks” (SO many good strategies, few of them satisfying, none of them particularly effective), it’s “how do you respond to good bamboozled people without being a condescending ass or screaming in frustration”?
Ugh (“ugh”)
@lillyfinch @theogrin @Jeramee @JuliusGoat
Please please someone come up with the solution for this scenario. I like the above for dealing with bad faith actors, which is most of the world. But there’s the occasional:
1) good faith actor,
2) whom we are attached to or love or are stuck with or multiple,
3) who thinks we are crazy,
4) but we aren’t because we’re objectively correct because facts are things,
5) but the surrounding circumstances and/or groupthink make us look aberrent,
6) and we’ve already burned our credibility by prior arguments and/or failing to empty the dishwasher last Tuesday,
7) and we don’t have the personality to give and they don’t have the personality to receive those mealy-mouthed and unrealistic psychobabble “when you say x I feel y and please help me understand z and can you tell me what you would do in my circumstance if you assumed L, M, and N” and take all history, emotions, and embarrassment out of the situation, because we are human and to some small degree adult and can’t just set all that shit aside,
8) and we need to reset back to “but look at this as if you hadn’t heard all the experts and were just building up from some 9th grade biology and physics and your memory of how you’ve seen things like smoke happen in the real world”,
9) and we don’t want to be dicks and humiliate anyone but want to give them a way to walk it back without being totally humiliated themselves,
10) and want to still live in a society,
11) and want to admit all the horrible negatives that will come with changing your mind, such as the facts that:
A) masks are somewhat uncomfortable,
B) and they’re unpleasant,
C) and they make you look like a weirdo but-jet-fuel-can’t-melt-steel! theorist,
D) and they’re ugly,
E) and they constrain your lifestyle and your social life,
F) and they’re not 100% effective,
G) and you have to be super diligent all the time about fit and use, and the slightest infraction will invalidate all your points with all your friends because they’ll be like “aha! See, you’re not perfect either with this so why would I do anything if I can’t be assured of not getting Covid!”,
H) and you can’t actually SEE any of this anyway and it gets super tiring and you will daily wonder if maybe you ARE crazy because most people seem fine and even happier not worrying about this shit,
I) and the humidity!
12) but they’re not crazy and you’re not crazy and the people who actually have the time and energy to think about these things on a policy level are just straight up fucking us over,
13) …and you just want this close person to be able to see that, in whatever way is easiest for them to do it, that gets you back on the same page about this culture-defining thing
#CovidIsNotOver #COVIDisAirborne
Anyone have good ideas for the straightforward problem I’ve described above?
Catherine Schmidt
@theogrin @Jeramee @JuliusGoat well…I am sure my husband thinks I am a zealot when I try to give him the facts about trump or COVID…but I get your point.
Jennifer Kayla | Theogrin 🦊
One of my favourite quotes is that 'communication is an act which takes place between equals.' That is, two people, on equal footing, with a mutual understanding that both sides of the discussion will ideally be fruitful and in good faith. In Discordianism and anarchist philosophy, that's known as the SNAFU principle, because two individuals on a corporate or hierarchial ladder are rarely so equal and so can never have a completely honest discussion.
Trying to convince a zealot fails all three tests consistently. It's not on mutually equal footing -- they consider themselves inherently superior in all ways. It's not in good faith -- they will say anything to get you to give up or agree. And with those two points, it's evident that the zealot lastly does not consider the interlocutor to be a person, but a game to be won, and ignoring the question is just one way to do that.
Jeramee
A great piece that also points out a consistent failing: don't let conservatives keep changing the subject. That's their fire hose of BS tactic.
You may have to remind a conservative that conversations can only happen when civil and that it's rude to continuously ignore your interlocutor's question, and that, to maintain any credibility, he needs to answer the question.
In my experience, conservatives will get mad and leave rather than answer honestly.
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