Mastodon Migration
Summary from long thread on instance blocking.
M = Meta
A = Allows Meta (does not block)
B = Blocks Meta
1) A boosts B's post. Can M see B's post?
2) A replies to B's post. Can M see B's post? A's reply?
3) A boosts M's post. Can B see M's post?
4) A replies to M's post. Can B see M's post? A's reply?
Mastodon default (@jerry)
1) Yes
2) No Yes
3) No
4) No Yes
Mastodon auth_fetch ON (@jarm)
1) No
2) No Yes
3) No
4) No Yes
Calckey (@kainoa)
1) No
2) No No
3) No
4) No No
1/2
#Meta
FediTips has moved!
@supernovae @mastodonmigration @jerry @jarm @kainoa @atomicpoet @stux @dansup @jessel @oliphant
The point of the Fediverse is to stop people being hurt.
Facebook/Meta has hurt people in the worst ways possible:
There are hundreds of examples like this of Meta/Facebook's amoral behaviour over the past decade or so. There was even a leaked memo where they said they knew it was going on and didn't care:
This attitude is verging on sociopathy.
supernovae
@mastodonmigration @jerry @jarm @kainoa @feditips @atomicpoet @stux @dansup @jessel @oliphant I'm going to champion the opposite too.
I'd like to see what we can do to champion connecting to the world and doing so safely - not out of hate for the company but love for fellow human beings.
I think we're missing the point when the feature of the fediverse is "use it because you hate something else"
When i'd rather it be "use it because you love it".
I'm not a pitchfork kind of guy. :)
One more important thing I think we need is a community or admins so we can collaborate/discuss and engage as peers not as enemies - and do so with user advocacy in mind.
Our users are suffering at the mercy of administrator views when the platform could support agency for both.
supernovae
@mastodonmigration @jerry @jarm @kainoa @feditips @atomicpoet @stux @dansup @jessel @oliphant I like the thought of blocking IPs with shared lists like crowdsec because those rules can be expanded to support Fastly/firewalls/cloudflare or whatever edge you wish to use and alleviate pressure on systems when abuse strikes - while also preserving the ability for 3rd party UIs to work and exploration of public timelines without auth (so they can be shared/linked/published as people do so naturally)
Mastodon Migration
@supernovae @jerry @jarm @kainoa @feditips @atomicpoet @stux @dansup @jessel @oliphant
Thanks for the contribution. The purpose here is to 1) define what behaviors instance operators should expect from actions they take and 2) to motivate the development of specific recommended actions (aka protocols) instance operators can take.
It would be good to develop a recommended procedure for "blocking Meta" that will achieve what instances want with some uniformity and minimize loads.
Mastodon Migration
@jerry @jarm @kainoa @feditips @atomicpoet @stux @supernovae @dansup
Thanks to all who participated in the thread: https://mastodon.online/@mastodonmigration/110618201529391135
Notes:
jessel @jessel mentions that blocking fp ip addresses is also a potential strategy >>> https://universeodon.com/@jessel/110620710218885550 and links to https://mastodon.moule.world/@MOULE/110586508411471928 and https://mastodon.moule.world/@MOULE/110586556696261405
Oliphantom Menace @oliphant links this great article on auth_fetch: What does AUTHORIZED_FETCH actually do? >>> https://hub.sunny.garden/2023/06/28/what-does-authorized_fetch-actually-do/
FediTips has moved!
@supernovae @mastodonmigration @jerry @jarm @kainoa @atomicpoet @stux @dansup @jessel @oliphant
Segregation? Don't be so ridiculous, people are free to come here. It's the corporation we are shunning, not the people currently forced to use it by the network effect.
It's about maintaing a social network that isn't controlled or influenced by Meta.
If you federate with Meta, you are encouraging people to stay on Meta. If you defederate, you're encouraging them to try other platforms.
supernovae
@feditips @mastodonmigration @jerry @jarm @kainoa @atomicpoet @stux @dansup @jessel @oliphant
I don't think you stop people from being hurt by harming them through segregation.
You stop people from being hurt by showing a little compassion and empathy.
Something that is severely lacking in all of these discussions.
Federation does *not* mean we're not upholding our rules and the mastodon covenant.
supernovae
@_dmh @feditips @mastodonmigration
I've only been talking about the humans.
Building a wall to deny a billion people access to talk to us is self isolationist/segregationist.
If another word fits better, that's fine. :) sure. it may not be on racial boundaries in the purest sense, but it feels like it's based on the same fears and hate.
Mastodon Migration
@supernovae @_dmh @feditips This discussion is exactly the thing we need to be doing. As stated previously:
"Communication is our superpower. This account will boost and report on reasoned discourse on all sides of #Meta #P92 #Threads discussion. No position is taken at this time other than support for open social media and opposition to corporate domination of the Fediverse."
FediTips has moved!
@mastodonmigration @supernovae @_dmh
The Fediverse has always been about servers choosing not to federate with certain other servers. This idea that you must federate with everyone has never been the case, that's why defederation features exist.
How bad does Meta have to get before you defederate? Does its algo promoting genocide not move you at all? What about its record-breaking fines for privacy violations?
Dave Howcroft 🦔
@supernovae
Empathy and compassion are for humans, though, not massive multinational companies. Framing a desire to stay away from corporate social media as "segregation" and harming others is also pretty wild imo.
For my own part, I'm hoping I will be able to connect to friends on who use insta and who can't be bothered to try the fedi, but i fully understand the deep mistrust of FB/Meta given their deeply unethical business practices
@feditips @mastodonmigration
Andrew Bennett
@feditips @supernovae @mastodonmigration @jerry @jarm @kainoa @atomicpoet @stux @dansup @jessel @oliphant
If you federate with Meta, you allow people to leave Meta and still interact with their friends and family who have not yet done so.
And even if they don't leave, so what? The point is interoperability. If YOU want to leave Meta, you can and still interact with your friends and family who don't. And they get to continue to interact with you. And that's okay. In fact, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. Just like e-mail, you can change social network provider and still interact. You are not locked in.
FediTips has moved!
@larthallor @supernovae @mastodonmigration @jerry @jarm @kainoa @atomicpoet @stux @dansup @jessel @oliphant
There is not a hope in hell Meta would keep such a system going if it looked like realistically being an escape route from their platform.
As soon as a sizeable number of people take such an opportunity, they will start shutting it down (probably using some excuse about new features and/or security).
FediTips has moved!
@supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
You're not really listening, you're just repeating a lame excuse that dodges the question.
What about the genocide? Doesn't that worry you at all that Amnesty International felt enough concern to publish a special report about Meta/Facebook?
supernovae
@feditips @mastodonmigration @_dmh
For the people in the back.
It's not about Meta.
It's about the people.
📣
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@supernovae @ohiorob @mastodonmigration @_dmh
So, on the one hand Amnesty has reported that Meta's systems enabled genocide.
But on the other hand, your daughter started a pet-sitting businesss.
Can you not hear how horrifyingly indifferent this sounds?
supernovae
@ohiorob @feditips @mastodonmigration @_dmh My 14 year old started a pet sitting business on meta and bought her first car on meta using money from her pet sitting business and then bought a bounch of classic video game consoles from people meta since her hobby is old video games.
with a billion+ people over there - there are probably a lot more people like my kids doing cool shit on meta.
ohiorob
@feditips @mastodonmigration @supernovae @_dmh
Tbh I can’t recall that they have done anything positive for the world. Like, all negatives. No positives.
FediTips has moved!
@supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
I am not "flexing", I am genuinely worried.
Why do you think I have run my accounts for the past three years?
I set them up as a direct result of concern over Meta's human rights record, and similar issues on other centralised social networks.
Now you are suggesting people should be federating with this corporation.
supernovae
@feditips @mastodonmigration @_dmh
Loaded questions aren't the flex you think they are.
supernovae
@feditips @ohiorob @mastodonmigration @_dmh
Well, you're essentially saying my daughter is a murderer by association - so everyone loses.
Sorry you can't separate Meta the company from People looking for social media.
Why would anyone want to join here if they would just be accused of genocide, hate or abused because of association?
why?
FediTips has moved!
@supernovae @ohiorob @mastodonmigration @_dmh
That's not what I said.
I'm saying your suggestion for good stuff that Meta has done is rather trivial compared to the bad stuff.
FediTips has moved!
@sammydee @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
People are fine, the company is not. If everyone currently using Meta comes over here that's great!
But the COMPANY is not great.
Allowing that company to have control and influence over the Fediverse is a really, really bad idea. It will cause bad things to happen.
Sammydee
@feditips @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh So in your opinion there's no value in seeing what Facebook users post? Or in them seeing what you post? Interesting. We need to be uniting people, not dividing them according to your politics or theirs.
FediTips has moved!
@sammydee @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
"Pick one - a new walled garden run by you, or openness. I vote for openness. Federate with everyone, regardless of YOUR politics. :)"
Genocide and human rights abuses are not about politics.
If someone thinks there is a legitimate case for them, then they have lost their moral compass completely.
A walled garden is where you cannot leave or create your own space, i.e. Facebook/Meta.
Sammydee
@feditips @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh We all know that all of their billions of customers aren't going to be here any time soon.
Agreed Meta should not control the Fediverse. I can't see any way they can.
Influence? Yawn. Everyone has an influence.
You can't have it both ways. If Meta's users are to be cut off from the Fediverse then the Fediverse isn't a free and open place. Pick one - a new walled garden run by you, or openness. I vote for openness. Federate with everyone, regardless of YOUR politics. :)
FediTips has moved!
@richardgrant @supernovae @ohiorob @mastodonmigration @_dmh
Bush was promoting an unnecessary war that killed massive numbers of people.
Amnesty is trying to stop people being killed at all.
I'm not sure how you see these things as similar.
Richard Grant
@feditips @supernovae @ohiorob @mastodonmigration @_dmh In this case it’s like, What, you’re not going to pre-block meta? WHY DO YOU SUPPORT GENOCIDE
Richard Grant
@feditips @supernovae @ohiorob @mastodonmigration @_dmh this is starting to sound like a rhetorical thing George W. Bush used to do. He would say basically, do you love America? then you have to support my invading Iraq to prove it. What, you don’t want to invade Iraq? WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA
Sammydee
@feditips @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh How someone decided to conflate "Meta" and "Genocide" is a level of mental gymnastics that I cannot comprehend.
If the Fediverse is a walled garden where I am locked OUT of communicating with billions of people, the Fediverse is a failure.
Let USERS make choices. Not holier-than-thou activists.
Y'all are becoming what you hate the most, and y'all might want to think on that a bit.
FediTips has moved!
@sammydee @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
" How someone decided to conflate "Meta" and "Genocide" is a level of mental gymnastics that I cannot comprehend."
I know a lot of people might be in denial about it, but it is worth looking at the actual reports about it:
FediTips has moved!
@sammydee @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
"Let USERS make choices. Not holier-than-thou activists."
The Fediverse was built by volunteers and activists. That's why there are no ads, no trackers, rules against bigotry etc.
FediTips has moved!
@avajarvis @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
I'm really sorry, but I cannot understand what point you're trying to make?
Could you rephrase what you wrote?
Hệ AJ
@feditips @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
So, Fedi.Tips -- Shouldn't we kick off anybody who works for Amazon or Google or Microsoft or Raytheon or Boeing -- or at least any servers who have admin staff who work for any of these companies (and more, including Meta)?
Why aren't you arguing that all those other servers, that have for admins or users who are such collaborators with the MIC, by your logic, also be defederated?
If you aren't doing this you're also ignoring the issue you mention here. You're being a hypocrite and diluting the issue you claim to care about -- for fucking what, exactly?
As someone where most of my family didn't survive a genocide perpetrated by the US in Vietnam: for fucking what exactly are you doing this?!
Do you know how insulting it is for you to use this as an argument about *Mastodon server federation*?
FOR FUCK'S SAKE.
btw, I do not support defederating from servers just because they live in a society.
Sammydee
@feditips @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh And yet you want to pick and choose which users I can interact with based on your politics. Strange.
FediTips has moved!
@sammydee @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
Human rights are not politics.
supernovae
@ohiorob @sammydee @feditips @mastodonmigration @_dmh
I never claimed segregation was the right word. (isolationism?)
But, I prefer my choice of being here and using activitypub to talk to them there.
That too is choice.
Why should others take that away?
FediTips has moved!
@supernovae @ohiorob @sammydee @mastodonmigration @_dmh
No one is stopping you from doing that. The Fediverse protocols let you federate with anyone, it cannot take that away.
But doing so will have consequences, and all I'm doing is reminding you of the consequences.
I'm guessing you're uncomfortable with the reminder, because you're not engaging with it directly.
ohiorob
@sammydee @feditips @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
PEOPLE CAN SIGN UP FOR FACEBOOK AT FACEBOOK.COM
It’s not segregation. It’s choice.
Sammydee
@ohiorob @feditips @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh And yet in my country "separate but equal is inherently unequal" is a basic belief. Excluding a billion users from the Fediverse because you don't like the company that owns their instance is ... absurd.
FediTips has moved!
@sammydee @ohiorob @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
I'm not calling for excluding users. They're free to join Fedi servers or set up their own.
I'm callilng for excluding the corporation Meta/Facebook. They are not needed, and their effect on the world has been terrible.
If people want to join the Fedi they don't have to use Meta to do so. In fact it's better that they DON'T use Meta to do so.
Sammydee
@feditips @supernovae @ohiorob @mastodonmigration @_dmh And so the schism of the Fediverse into two ... the Open Fediverse and the We Only Want To Hear People Who We Like Fediverse ... begins. Sad, this place had a lot of promise.
FediTips has moved!
@sammydee @supernovae @ohiorob @mastodonmigration @_dmh
"We only want people who respect human rights" is actually a pretty good way to run a social network.
Hệ AJ
@feditips @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
Yeah sorry, no, I was pretty crysral clear and I'm not going to waste time arguing with you.
The fact you took maybe a minute to read and don't want to spend time contemplating the words of someone whose family BARELY SURVIVED GENOCIDE IN LIVING MEMORY and finds your usage of "by federating with Meta you are ignoring genocide" as some kind of gotcha argument in a fucking argument about Mastodon servers to be incredibly insulting to ME AND MY DEAD RELATIVES I WILL NEVER KNOW...
Just fuck off.
I really hope you aren't saying "I can't understand you" because I'm Vietnamese, by the way. English is my first language BECAUSE GENOCIDE.
THANKS FOR NOT LISTENING.
FediTips has moved!
@avajarvis @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
No, I wasn't aware of your heritage, apologies if that's what came across.
FediTips has moved!
@sammydee @ohiorob @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
They can come here via servers that are not owned by Meta.
Sammydee
@ohiorob @feditips @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh Um, if they "come here" but can't interact with others "here" how are they "here"? Building walls in the Fediverse is a bad plan.
ohiorob
@sammydee @feditips @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
Oh my God. No one is excluding anyone from the #fediverse.
This is about choosing to proactively associate (federate) or not with them once they arrive. No one is telling them NO, they can’t come here.
FediTips has moved!
@ohiorob @sammydee @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
I'm kind of wondering why all of the people having a go at me in this thread are on universeodon.com. That's the server whose admin was the one praising the meeting with Meta.
Maybe that server has a particular pro-Meta atmosphere or something?
ohiorob
@feditips @sammydee @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
Unfortunately, folks are reading what they want to see in this thread.
FediTips has moved!
@pauliehedron @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
Alright, how about the Rohingya muslims themselves?
Or the Ethiopians and Kenyans?
https://www.dw.com/en/facebook-owner-meta-sued-for-inciting-hatred-in-ethiopia/a-64085804
Pauliehedron ✅ :donor:
@feditips @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
Can we stop using amnesty international as some great organization to reference, given their reports on the genocide happening in Ukraine both sided the invasion and blamed the victim? So much so the UA team resigned in protest????
That would be great, thanks!
FediTips has moved!
@ohiorob @sammydee @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
Anyone can set up their own server, it starts from about 10$ a month including a managed host that does all the technical stuff.
I have a website telling people how to do it at https://growyourown.services
If people are unhappy with how a server is run, they can start their own.
It doesn't get more open than that, and it's something that is impossible on centralised networks like Twitter, Facecbook etc.
Sammydee
@ohiorob @feditips @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh Yep, this is a deeply flawed place, with instance owners acting like entitled HOA board members - enforcing their personal beliefs to the detriment of their users and openness. It's likely what will make the Fediverse irrelevant to the masses forever, and a niche and very fragmented place forever. :(
ohiorob
@sammydee @feditips @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
It’s been that way since its conception. And it has only grown. Meta didn’t give 2 shits about Mastodon until Twitter started to burn and the #twittermigration started.
ohiorob
@sammydee @feditips @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
Have you seen the #Fedi blocklists? Omg you will shit when you see the all the walls.
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@pauliehedron @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
This is a discussion about Meta's reputation, and I'm citing cases which call that reputation into question.
I'm not sure what is unclear here?
Pauliehedron ✅ :donor:
@feditips @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
You're incapable of having a reasoned discussion without the strawmen. That's obvious.
Are you feeling ok? Do you need to hydrate?
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@sammydee @ohiorob @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
I think the Fediverse is far more under threat if it becomes dependent on Meta.
Sammydee
@feditips @ohiorob @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh Yep, and the minute someone does, and you find out it's federated with Meta, you'll defederate it. And the Fediverse dies.
Sammydee
@W6KME @feditips @ohiorob @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh Except for Meta, who some lobby to leave out. :)
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@sammydee @W6KME @ohiorob @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
It is 100% okay to defederate from whoever you want, that is why defederation tools exist.
If you watch the original Mastodon animation it makes this very clear:
W6KME
@feditips @ohiorob @sammydee @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
Hell, it's the entire POINT of the Fediverse. Anyone crying that they're being left out unfairly is an idiot or a liar.
Sammydee
@feditips @ohiorob @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh Nobody - NOBODY - thinks it should, or is, or will - become "dependent" on Meta. Federating with them does not imply dependency.
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@sammydee @ohiorob @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
Lots of people think it will.
The "embrace extend extinguish" concern has been greatly discussed on here, and was exacerbated by the NDA nature of meetings and the rumours of financial support from Meta.
Even ignoring all of that, the entire concept of a massive mega-instance from Meta dominating the Fediverse is concerning, because it would have more power than all other servers put together.
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@pauliehedron @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
Neither of the links I provided here mention Amnesty. They are families of victims suing Meta/Facebook.
Pauliehedron ✅ :donor:
@feditips @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
I asked you to stop referencing a SHIT organization in your argument. It was a minor request, and shouldn't have any impact in your ability to make a cogent argument. So let me be more clear; your appeal to this authority is weak, doesn't help your argument, and makes you, THE BRAND fedi.tips, seem quite unwell. You do you though.
Sammydee
@feditips @ohiorob @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh Read SN's blog post ... the 'NDA' issue is a non-issue. So are unsubstantiated 'rumours'.
Since the Fediverse as it is today is indeed a rounding error on Meta's user count it's true that free and open communication between them will be biased towards them initially. That's hardly a reason to exclude their users.
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@sammydee @ohiorob @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
We have no idea if the NDA is a non-issue because it prevents us knowing what was discussed.
"That's hardly a reason to exclude their users."
I don't know how often I have to say this, but it's not about excluding users. They can join via existing servers or set up their own, as we saw happen last year during new waves of users from Twitter.
It's just about excluding the corporation.
Sammydee
@ohiorob @feditips @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh That's not at all what I meant. I meant that a cascade of snowflake instance owners defederating instances that aren't politically correct enough for their sensibilities would destroy the Fediverse. That would be OUR doing, not Meta's.
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@sammydee @ohiorob @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
"a cascade of snowflake instance owners defederating instances that aren't politically correct enough"
Are you saying human rights are politically correct? That human rights supporters are "snowflakes"?
ohiorob
@sammydee @feditips @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
You literally said 1 post back that if people block Metafedi, and then Meta leaves the #fediverse, it dies. That’s dependency.
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@sammydee @ohiorob @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
It is up to each instance admin to decide how far is too far.
If users don't like their admin's position, they're free to move to another instance or even set up their own.
It doesn't require tech skills or huge amounts of money, it starts from about $10 a month.
Sammydee
@feditips @ohiorob @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh And defederating from instances that don't. :) That's where it goes a step too far, don't you think?
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@sammydee @ohiorob @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
No, it's not just that.
It's an active indifference to such terrible things at the very top of the company:
Sammydee
@feditips @ohiorob @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh I'm saying that those who think "Facebook doesn't support human rights because their moderation tools failed to prevent every single thing that they could have" are taking a very extreme position, yes. Moderation of billions of users isn't as simple as you seem to think it is. :)
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@sammydee @ohiorob @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
"Moderation of billions of users isn't as simple as you seem to think it is"
That's exactly why no server should ever have billions of people on it.
Moderation is much higher quality when networks are spread across massive numbers of smaller instances, as the staff-member ratio is much higher on smaller servers.
Sammydee
@feditips @ohiorob @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh Now we're going in circles. Yes, I can stand up an instance. And if I do, and federate with someone you don't like, you'll defederate me. Resulting in multiple fragmented Fediverses instead of one. That's the sad outcome of this weird position ... a small, fragmented, weak place where some folks can talk and others can't. But we've had this discussion before, and folks are starting to repeat themselves, so it's time to go away and think a bit. :)
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@sammydee @ohiorob @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
"Resulting in multiple fragmented Fediverses instead of one. . a small, fragmented, weak place where some folks can talk and others can't. "
The Fediverse has always had defederation. That's part of why it has worked so well, it gives power to the grassroots level. It's why Gab was excluded for example.
On Meta, the power is all in the hands of the board of directors of a massive corporation.
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@mastodonmigration @pauliehedron @supernovae @_dmh
Could you give some examples of hyperbole? I'm just quoting actual examples.
Mastodon Migration
@pauliehedron @feditips @supernovae @_dmh
It is certainly generally true that when debate on any side of a matter starts to become hyperbolic (and here both sides are getting into hyperbole and adhominem arguements), it tends to drive each side further into their respective corners.
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@sammydee @mastodonmigration @ohiorob @supernovae @_dmh
That's just a blog post saying "nothing to see here".
It doesn't clear anything up because it cannot clear anything up. NDAs by their very name forbid disclosure.
It is simply incompatible with open volunteer projects that depend on goodwill at a grassroots level. Corporations use them because they're not interested in such things.
Mastodon Migration
@sammydee @feditips @ohiorob @supernovae @_dmh Could you link the post?
Sammydee
@mastodonmigration @feditips @ohiorob @supernovae @_dmh Ah, so you HAVEN'T read it.
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@mastodonmigration @ohiorob @sammydee @supernovae @_dmh
I don't think people who meet with Meta under NDAs are "opposing corporate control with every fibre of their being". They are giving Meta a degree of control by signing such documents.
The admin of Fosstodon responded most appropriately to Meta's suggestion:
Mastodon Migration
@ohiorob @sammydee @feditips @supernovae @_dmh Absolutely! We need to remind ourselves that both fedi.tips and supernovae are valuable members of the Fediverse community who have each contributed uncountable hours to building and sustaining this amazing social media platform. Strong feelings go with the territory, but we all have much more that unites us than divides us, and we all oppose corporate control of the Fediverse with ever fiber of our being.
ohiorob
@sammydee @feditips @supernovae @mastodonmigration @_dmh
You are free to give #Meta the benefit of the doubt. Just as others here are free to feel they don’t deserve it.
Sammydee
@feditips @mastodonmigration @ohiorob @supernovae @_dmh Having spent the past 45 years in the software industry, I can tell you that your concern over NDAs is overblown. Rampant fear and paranoia over having a conversation under one is not at all justified. Talking is always good.
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@sammydee @mastodonmigration @ohiorob @supernovae @_dmh
NDAs make sense in a corporate setting where everyone involved is for-profit.
They do not make sense on a volunteer project that depends on massive numbers of grassroots contributors and free open source software.
If you've signed an NDA then you'll know it forbids discussion of a product or service until it has been unveiled in public.
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@sammydee @mastodonmigration @ohiorob @supernovae @_dmh
We have no idea what was discussed in the meeting.
A blog post is not legally bound to discuss everythying, whereas an NDA is.
This is what I meant about power imbalance when signing NDAs, it gives Meta a leverage that the blog's readers do not have.
Sammydee
@feditips @mastodonmigration @ohiorob @supernovae @_dmh It forbids the discussion of THINGS DISCUSSED IN THE MEETING with the public. From the participant's meeting notes it doesn't sound like anything particularly interesting / devious / underhanded was discussed. I'm sure Meta wanted one, just so they could say "hey we're considering how we interact with the Fediverse" or something else equally innocuous. I strongly doubt that in an initial meeting they divulged their plans for world domination or waved around million dollar checks. :) I guess I'll take the word of the person who was actually there over the random fears of those who weren't.
Vint Prox
Are you proposing a whitelist approach or defederate with anything that remotely resembles a bot mob from #Meta (#P92)? It can make #Fediverse look like digging its own hole in defencelessness, to be frank. Isn't this supposed to be an opposite that we do: absorb the #SocialMedia and let people choose what they really want in their feed?
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Fediverse is not supposed to be an "anything goes" place.
It's supposed to be a place where each community can decide what is allowed and not allowed, and where people are free to move communities or start a new community.
Ollie Francis
@nicdex @feditips @supernovae @mastodonmigration @jerry @jarm @kainoa @stux @dansup @jessel @oliphant Meta is not going to be just another (albeit very large) instance. It will have huge influence and sway and will want to shape the fediverse for its own benefit.
Meta is not doing this for the same reasons as the rest of the instances are doing it. They want data. They want profit. They want us to be under their power again.
They're not coming here to be nice.
nicdex 🇨🇦 🇺🇦
@feditips @supernovae @mastodonmigration @jerry @jarm @kainoa @stux @dansup @jessel @oliphant
Well that make no sense.
You say people are "forced" to use FB/Insta because of the network effect. So they are joining because they can reach the people they want to reach.
But somehow, if we federate with P92, which is going to offer a bigger reach/network on the instance that federates, we are encouraging them to stay on Meta. I would argue that it's the inverse, it will show the users on P92 that they have alternatives to Meta where they can also reach the network of people they want to reach.
I think this could be a good thing for the Fediverse, as long as we maintain our principles, which we will do. If they don't behave then we can defederate. Blocking them before hand is just keeping the status quo, which is like you said forcing the user to use Meta because of the network effect.
Erin Nivelet
@ollie_francis @nicdex @feditips @supernovae @mastodonmigration @jerry @jarm @kainoa @stux @dansup @jessel @oliphant and with de-federating P92 you think that will change? even alone, Meta can go to the W3C and say "we are the biggest instance, we need ActivityPub to be change like that". Meta don't need to be federated to rule the fediverse and that lead to the biggest question: instead of de-federating why not finding a solution so biggest instance doesn't mean biggest decision power?
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