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   clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Mar-2023 17:10:55 JST clacke
   I'm listening to Graeber talk about "Debt: The First 5000 Years" (Google Talks).
   
   Apparently the Anglican Bible obscures the connection to debt and in the Lord's Prayer talks about "trespasses". That's interesting.
   
   The Swedish Bible, in all official translations from 1526 to 2000, has something that translates to "forgive us our debt, like we forgive those indebted to us" with minor spelling and grammar changes over the centuries.
   • Embed this notice
     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Mar-2023 17:46:29 JST clacke

     in reply to
     The first Swedish translation commissioned by Gustav I was a straight translation of Martin Luther's German Bible. The ones before 1917 were minor spelling and grammar updates from previous versions, direct translations from older Swedish.
     
     The last two translations by the government's Bible Commission, The Swedish Church Bible of 1917 and Bibel 2000, were based on original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts, but also made effort to minimize changes in style from previous versions, so now I'm curious how Bibel 2000 would have looked in some timeline where an intermediate Swedish Bible would have been based on King James.
     
     Would they have gone back to the phrasing in the original text or would they have said something like "debt and sin are the same word in the original, but in this passage it's clearly more about sin"?
     
     The 1917 version was more cautious, but Bibel 2000 did make some controversial changes in accordance with the originals and updated theological, historical and literary understanding, so maybe they'd have rephrased it to debt. We'll never know. =)
   • Embed this notice
     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Mar-2023 17:56:44 JST clacke

     in reply to

     • Björn Lindström
     @bkhl So we've carried that duality into Swedish, but "som står i skuld till oss" / "oss skyldiga äro" is difficult for me to read as someone having wronged us in some way other than owing us something, at the very least owing us compensation for something they did.
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     Björn Lindström (bkhl@social.sdf.org)'s status on Sunday, 12-Mar-2023 17:56:46 JST Björn Lindström

     in reply to

     @clacke I never interpreted that as relating to debt in Swedish but rather as the other meaning of "skuld" ("guilt").

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     Sebastian Lasse (sl007@digitalcourage.social)'s status on Sunday, 12-Mar-2023 18:08:39 JST Sebastian Lasse

     in reply to

     @clacke

     Now I am finally confused !

     https://digitalcourage.social/@sl007/110009464846812887

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     Björn Lindström (bkhl@social.sdf.org)'s status on Sunday, 12-Mar-2023 22:02:37 JST Björn Lindström

     in reply to

     • Morten Juhl-Johansen

     @mjjzf @clacke I guess that's "skuldenär" in Swedish. Had they used that word in Swedish I'd also been associating it with financial debt, rather than moral debt.

   • Embed this notice
     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Mar-2023 22:02:37 JST clacke

     in reply to

     • Morten Juhl-Johansen
     • Björn Lindström
     @bkhl @mjjzf The Swedish for debtor is "geldenär".
   • Embed this notice
     Morten Juhl-Johansen (mjjzf@mstdn.io)'s status on Sunday, 12-Mar-2023 22:02:38 JST Morten Juhl-Johansen

     in reply to

     • Björn Lindström

     @bkhl @clacke på dansk også "Forgiv os vor skyld, som vi også forgiver vore skyldnere" - men på dansk bruges "skyldnere" juridisk om økonomi

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     valhalla (valhalla@social.gl-como.it)'s status on Sunday, 12-Mar-2023 22:03:20 JST valhalla

     in reply to
     @clacke FWIW the Italian translation also uses “debiti”, whose main meaning is “debts”
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   • Embed this notice
     Ruben (trregeagle@social.mjd.id.au)'s status on Sunday, 12-Mar-2023 22:03:22 JST Ruben

     in reply to
     @clacke Interesting. I had heard both and was never too sure what was going on there. Trespassing may have been more acceptable to the ruling classes than forgiving debts?
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     Morten Juhl-Johansen (mjjzf@mstdn.io)'s status on Sunday, 12-Mar-2023 22:13:55 JST Morten Juhl-Johansen

     in reply to

     @clacke we have a new one in the works here in Denmark, and it has been discussed.
     Interestingly, the people most into the Bible already find the most recent translation too modern - so it is not entirely clear who lobbied for it.
     "A more modern bible" does seem a bit of a paradox

   • Embed this notice
     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Mar-2023 22:13:55 JST clacke

     in reply to

     • Morten Juhl-Johansen
     > "A more modern bible" does seem a bit of a paradox
     Heh, I see what you mean, but we have learned a lot about the times the Bible was written and the people who wrote it since the first translations to Latin and other languages. And the translations we made since those first translations accumulated a lot of cruft that didn't come from the original sources.
     
     That's why the Swedish Bibel 2000 was written based on proper scholarly understanding of the material and a critical eye to where texts were coming from and what they really meant.
     
     That combined with updated language that is better understandable to an audience of today is reasonable to call a "modern Bible".
     
     
     @mjjzf
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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Mar-2023 22:14:32 JST clacke

     in reply to
     I guess with "people most into the Bible" you don't mean nerds of ancient literature, culture and languages, but rather fundamentalist Christians with a literal interpretation of the Bible translation they grew up with.
     
     Those people will of course be devastated to be told that maybe some lines text they have used to justify some part of their doctrine were based on a misunderstanding of the original message.
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     Björn Lindström (bkhl@social.sdf.org)'s status on Sunday, 12-Mar-2023 22:41:16 JST Björn Lindström

     in reply to

     • Morten Juhl-Johansen

     @clacke @mjjzf skuldenär hasn't been that unusual either, even if gäldenär is the current legal jargon.

     https://svenska.se/saob/?id=S_05205-0109.L4C7&pz=7

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   • Embed this notice
     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Mar-2023 22:41:16 JST clacke

     in reply to

     • Morten Juhl-Johansen
     • Björn Lindström
     @bkhl @mjjzf TIL!
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     LinuxWalt (@lnxw48a1) {3EB165E0-5BB1-45D2-9E7D-93B31821F864} (lnxw48a1@nu.federati.net)'s status on Sunday, 12-Mar-2023 23:25:54 JST LinuxWalt (@lnxw48a1) {3EB165E0-5BB1-45D2-9E7D-93B31821F864}

     in reply to
     @clacke There's a widely sung version of the Lord's Prayer that uses 'debts'. I don't think most English speakers understand 'debts' in a purely financial sense, but rather as offenses against someone else.
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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Sunday, 12-Mar-2023 23:48:52 JST clacke

     in reply to
     Hang on, even KJV has "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors". Which version is Graeber talking about that doesn't?
     
     www.biblegateway.com/passage/?…
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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Monday, 13-Mar-2023 00:14:17 JST clacke

     in reply to
     NIV is the one most sold in the US and it has "And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors".
     
     The Common English Bible is published by an alliance of denominations like Methodists, Episcopalians and US Presbyterians. The American Bible Society publishes the Good News Translation and the Common English Version, unclear who reads them and how widespread they are. These three talk about doing wrongs or wronging someone.
     
     He is not referring to any of these.
     
     www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/…
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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Monday, 13-Mar-2023 00:37:30 JST clacke

     in reply to
     Graeber: "Actually the Lord's Prayer, which we always remember through the Anglican translation, which is 'forgive us our trespasses just as we forgive those who trespass against us', sort of translated into these odd private property terms".
     
     The only version that has "trespasses" is the New Matthew Bible, which is so obscure that Wikipedia doesn't know about it. Anglicans use the KJV.
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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Monday, 13-Mar-2023 00:39:54 JST clacke

     in reply to
     So that's weird, but his main point is that Aramaic and, as we've discovered, most English translations and many other translations, see some level of equivalence or connection between sin and debt, as they are used as homonyms.
     
     Also Matthew 18 ( libranet.de/display/0b6b25a8-1… ) confirms in explicit reference that not paying what you owe is an important form of wrongdoing. So even if Graeber is off on his reference, his point seems to hold.
   • Embed this notice
     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Monday, 13-Mar-2023 00:39:54 JST clacke

     in reply to

     • makeworld
     @makeworld Oh! So they use a translation that is not in the Bible version they use?
   • Embed this notice
     makeworld (makeworld@merveilles.town)'s status on Monday, 13-Mar-2023 00:39:56 JST makeworld

     in reply to

     @clacke

     > The Presbyterian and other Reformed churches tend to use the rendering "forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors". Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans and Methodists are more likely to say "trespasses… those who trespass against us".

     Ctrl-F for trespasses, I think it's explained here. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Prayer

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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Monday, 13-Mar-2023 00:53:41 JST clacke

     in reply to

     • makeworld
     Oh! Apparently the en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_… somehow comes from a different tradition (different Greek text even, dating back to the 4th century) than the Bible text, and the BCP uses "trespasses" while the KJV uses "debts".
     
     English-speaking Anglicans, Catholics and various independent denomination like Methodists all use the prayer from the BCP.
     
     I didn't realize this could be the case, as in Sweden when the Bible was updated the prayer would be updated with it.
     
     Thanks @makeworld for finding this!
     
     merveilles.town/@makeworld/110…
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     asm & tamsyn & forth, oh my! (millihertz@oldbytes.space)'s status on Monday, 13-Mar-2023 00:53:46 JST asm & tamsyn & forth, oh my!

     in reply to

     @clacke the Book of Common Prayer seems to be the source of "trespasses"

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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Monday, 13-Mar-2023 00:57:46 JST clacke

     in reply to
     That was certainly a several-hours detour (with a cinema visit and a dinner in the middle, heh) over a single line twelve minutes into a presentation.
     
     Let's see how long I take to hear the whole talk! ?
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     Luis Villa (luis_in_brief@social.coop)'s status on Monday, 13-Mar-2023 01:06:55 JST Luis Villa

     in reply to

     @clacke was going to say… Graeber is not a reliable narrator on a lot of things, but in my very mainstream denomination growing up it was trespasses.

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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Monday, 13-Mar-2023 01:08:49 JST clacke

     in reply to
     > As early as the third century, Origen of Alexandria used the word trespasses (παραπτώματα) in the prayer. Although the Latin form that was traditionally used in Western Europe has debita (debts), most English-speaking Christians (except Scottish Presbyterians and some others of the Dutch Reformed tradition) use trespasses.
     en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s…
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     LinuxWalt (@lnxw48a1) {3EB165E0-5BB1-45D2-9E7D-93B31821F864} (lnxw48a1@nu.federati.net)'s status on Monday, 13-Mar-2023 01:37:03 JST LinuxWalt (@lnxw48a1) {3EB165E0-5BB1-45D2-9E7D-93B31821F864}

     in reply to

     • LinuxWalt (@lnxw48a1) {3EB165E0-5BB1-45D2-9E7D-93B31821F864}
     I should add that whatever translation the Catholic Church used when I was a kid did have 'trespasses', so when we memorized it, that's what we memorized.
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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Monday, 13-Mar-2023 01:40:24 JST clacke

     in reply to

     • Campbell Jones
     @serebit Apparently the difference is that the prayer text comes from a different tradition than the Bible text.
     
     libranet.de/display/0b6b25a8-1…
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     Campbell Jones (serebit@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 13-Mar-2023 01:40:25 JST Campbell Jones

     in reply to

     @clacke When I went to Catholic church services as a kid, the verbage was "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." I believe this was updated to debt/debtors sometime within the last decade to better reflect the accurate translation.