@lxo Now that I read more into your response that does make sense. "…and to relinquish that control when it's beneficial themselves." Yeah, that's certainly what the OSI supporters often do. Sorry for misunderstanding.
This argument is very flawed because it assumes that the presence of GNU software is what makes GNU GNU. Imagine you have GNU+Hurd. And you replace 99% of its components with non-GNU ones. Is it suddenly not GNU? Or is it a "Hurd distribution?"
Let's go deeper. The BSD userland can be combined with Linux. Is it suddenly Linux? No, it does not work like desktop Linux-based systems at all. It works like a BSD. What about GNU+kFreeBSD? Is it suddenly FreeBSD?
As long as a userland is tied to some crucial component, it is a seperate OS. In BSDs and GNU+Linux it is the C library. If you have a C library, everything is tied and locked to it basically. Except filesystems. But you can have these filesystems on Android also. It just needs to load the correct kernel modules.
Android can't run GNU software natively anyway. It needs a compatibility layer. Like Termux.
Again, GNU is an operating system. GNU utilities are utilities. You can port them wherever you want. Doesn't mean that all the software will suddenly get ported with it.
GNU is colloquially all the software that runs on top of Linux and glibc. Because it's an entire string of dependencies. You may argue that all this also works on musl. I'd argpe that it doesn't, the work is still going on, and even if it did, the whole system (musl+Linux) would be more like a GNU clone. The same way GNU is a Unix clone. Stallman wrote the GNU software to replace Unix. Before Linux came along, all this software worked with Unix. So it's complicated.
I'm not going to claim that Linux with musl is necessarily GNU+Linux but it's at least GNU-compatible. Again. Windows worked with DOS software. It still does, the cmd is a remnant of DOS. The main question is the border between an original and a clone.
If Windows was libre, it would be Windows' Alpine. The only reason Alpine is binary-compatible with GNU+Linux is that GNU+Linux is libre. Otherwise it would be in an eternal alpha like ReactOS is.
Very well, it is not. But my point about it being a GNU clone still stands.
Again, unlike in the world of proprietary jails, in the world of libre software you can just recompile the software for specific dependencies. That's how GNU was ported to Linux. Again, before that it worked on Unix. It had to be rewritten for Linux specifically because Linux is not the same as, say, a FreeBSD kernel. In fact, if Linux did not exist, GNU software would probably have been ported to the FreeBSD kernel. Is it a better universe? Maybe. Maybe… BUT IT'S TOO LATE.
Well, even if it's not a 1:1 clone, it still is GNU-like (nobody uses this word but eh). Again, the reason why it works with GNU+Linux software is because it has ported the dependencies of said software. Including OpenRC. OpenRC was already used on Gentoo before that.
Alpine's userland is replacing the dependencies of GNU packages, the same way Stallman was replacing the dependencies of Unix packages. Simple as that. Sure, you can do the same with Android. And perhaps one can make a complete Unix-like Bionic+Linux system with Wayland and all that. But I haven't seen one, all of this usually runs on top of Android packages. It runs natively. Very well, that's fair. But these utilities are not what Android depends on. If I ported the coreutils to BSD, would that make it GNU? No, not really. I still won't be able to run software made for GNU+Linux.
@lanodan To be clear, I would. If I ported just about everything else, including the init system or what have you. Same with Termux, it adds all this software on top of Android to even run software written for GNU+Linux. The APT package manager is not Android's package manager. It's Debian's package manager. It's like you make a sandwitch by putting an operating system on top of another operating system.
@lanodan You must understand that I say "GNU+Linux" because there is no better alternative. Core utilities, init systems, that's all replaceable. Saying that it's all Unix-like includes BSDs and misses the intricacies of GNU+Linux like, again, the init systems written for it. Linux-based Unix-likes? That's better. But then it includes stuff like Chimera Linux. So what are we gonna do about it? All this stuff was clearly written with GNU in mind (or whatever it mutated into over the years with SystemD and Wayland and all other things).
@lanodan I think it kinda goes into that BSD territory. Unless its overall infrastructure is made for GNU. Like the init systems and Wayland (when will they port it to OpenBSD?).
The freedom to run the program as you wish means that you are not forbidden or stopped from making it run. This has nothing to do with what functionality the program has, whether it is technically capable of functioning in any given environment, or whether it is useful for any particular computing activity.
I’m thinking about how other proprietary programs (like DRM) can effectively refuse you such a freedom. Does that mean that the libre software in question actually provides you Freedom 0? Due to its dependence on a proprietary program that denies you this freedom, it does not. That’s the reason why GPLv3 exists in the first place.
And that’s why an open-source DRM is an absurdity. It’s a libre software that ironically makes all the other software non-libre (but the other software is probably closed-source so you can’t just “untie” it).
“I use GNU+Linux as my operating system,” I state proudly to the well-dressed, clean-shaven woman. She swivels around in her desk chair with a devilish gleam in her eyes, ready to womansplain with extreme precision. “Actually”, she says with a grin, “I use Alpine, a distro that doesn’t include the GNU Coreutils, or any other GNU code. It’s Linux, but it’s not GNU+Linux.’ I don’t miss a beat and reply with a smirk, “There are complete systems that contain Linux and not GNU; Android is an example. But it is a mistake to call them ‘Linux’ systems, just as it is a mistake to call GNU a ‘Linux’ system.“
The smile quickly drops from the woman’s face. Her body begins convulsing and she foams at the mouth and drops to the floor with a sickly thud. As she writhes around she screams “I-IT WORKS WITH SYSTEMD! THAT MEANS IT’S STILL LINUX!” Coolly, I reply “If Windows worked with SystemD, would that make it Linux?” I interrupt her response with “-and work is being made on the software to make it more init-agnostic. Even if you were correct, you won’t be for long.”
With a sickly wheeze, the last of the woman’s life is ejected from her body. She lies on the floor, cold and limp. I’ve mansplained her to death.
@lanodan You call systems like GNU+Linux "*/Linux." But that technically includes Android and embedded systems. Isn't it better to write "GNU+Linux" instead, perhaps mentioning Alpine seperately? Android would be something like Android+Linux or whatever.
I do wonder if someone has ever tried porting Android to Hurd or a BSD kernel.
Man, the article do be kinda salty in the beginning. Especially with the author calling Stallman’s fans “fossbros.” Anyway, to the actual arguments.
…non-Systemd distributions must patch them to run without Systemd.
Well, there are many other things to patch in Linux-based systems:
Wayland support
Package manager support (KHE-KHEM, NixOS, KHE-KHEM)
C library support
audio support (other than PulseAudio there are also sndio and PipeWire)
backports
and other things
Anyway, all of this is irrelevant because the argument is not for calling it systemd+Linux but for calling it Linux. Which is flawed by default. At minimum what would make sense is calling it a “Linux-based Unix-like.” Which isn’t exactly a name. More like a vague discription.
So I guess you’re using Linux as your desktop. Sorry!
That sounded so arrogant. As if in your mind whoever uses GNU+Linux as a desktop instead of a server is a fool or has some kind of a perversion. @Suiseiseki
@Suiseiseki Yeah, yeah, I get it, cars are all locked down nowadays. That's also an issue, and certainly a concern for the Right-to-Repair movement. @curiousthinker
Штирнерист-трансгуманист, GNU/джихадист, мета-анархист, бывший анкап. Не люблю фемок, альтрайтов, неонацистов и мастододиков. Имею непопулярные взгляды, в том числе частично согласен с теорией великого замещения, но крайне несогласен с её выводами. Хайль Штирнер.Stirnerite transhumanist, GNU/Jihadist, meta-anarchist, ex-ancap. Dislike libfems, the alt-right, neo-Nazis and Mastodorks. Have some unpopular opinions, including partly agreeing with the Great Replacement Theory but strongly disagreeing with its conclusions. Heil Stirner.#anarchism #egoism #PostLeft #AcidCommunism #UserFreedom #nobot