@Dagnar @Dicey @BattleDwarfGimli @MadrePappagallo @grizzlywhisker @zeke @Amalek_Respector @MantisMD @MeBigbrain @MelGibsonafter4Beers @Thusnelda @Turkleton @WhiteApe @Witch_Hunter_Siegfired @db Don't look elsewhere, our forefathers had figured it out. It's just the hybris of modern humans, who think we must now be so much smarter than our ancestors.
I got cured of that idea, when i was learning for my Infinitesimal calculation / Analysis Abitur exam. I am class of 2001, so we were allowed to use non programmable scientific calculators. On one day i thought aah common, easy going lets try one of the exams from the 50s...
I couldn't answer one single question using the calculator that those guys back then didn't have.
It's complete lunacy that contemporary humans think they were smarter than all our forefathers combined, who agreed on certain stuff, like keeping women out of politics, and not letting uncounted numbers of jungle creatures roam freely in your society... but you know contemporary humans read the summary of 1 book and think they can now solve all the problems no one before them could solve with amazing solutions like "Wooooooah, if we stop being assholes and are more accepting to wankers and outcasts, the world is gonna be totally silky smooth and sparkly" or the classic "If we take away all guns, people would totally stop killing each other and withing weeks we would have world peace and then we finally can have all the butt sex possible!"
Anyway, don't look for answers from the guys who couldn't keep their dystopia alive, and just because they look very vintage it doesn't mean they are trad, it just means there was no spot for new clothes in the 5 year plan.

Sorry for the many words, today and yesterday i needed to kill time at work. i won't terrorize the fedi with my word barrages for much longer and return to my usual habits here ;-)!