マリオ (Mario Menti)
Another new Japanese word I picked up tonight, watching First Love on Netflix (which is quite addictive ?) is 彼は誰時 (かはたれどき) , meaning "twilight".
I think I know every kanji in this word - 彼 (he), 誰 (who), 時 (time), but I have no idea how they combine to make up "twilight". Japanese speakers please help ??
とねぢ ＠Minoh-don（piano.piano）
@mario @kojinmanus kojinnanus is right.
Who is he?
たそかれ
is a word that originated from "who is he? It is also called "Tasokare. It is a beautiful Japanese word.
Nowadays, the kanji for "黄昏" is more commonly used.
マリオ (Mario Menti)
@kojinmanus thank you! Yeah, that makes some sense, even if it is quite strange... A funny word indeed ?
Jan Manus Leupert (マヌス)
@mario It’s literally the time where one can’t really tell who’s coming one’s way (because it’s too dark). 彼は誰 (かはたれ) is archaic for “who is that?”
Quite a funny word, isn’t it ?
YuriL 🕊️🤺
@toneji @mario @kojinmanus Allow me to put my 2 cents in here. If I’m not mistaken, “たそかれ（tasokare) “ suggested by Toneji should be more accurate for twilight, when the Sun is setting (in the evening). Which is nowadays spelled “黄昏” and read “たそがれ(tasogare)”. As for “かはたれ (kahatare)”, it should be more about dawn, when the day is breaking (in the morning).
YuriL 🕊️🤺
@toneji @mario @kojinmanus Oh, by the way, there is also a word “おうまがどき（逢魔が刻 / oumagadoki）” referring to twilight when the Sun is setting. It literally means “the time you encounter demons”; the day becomes night and demons start walking around our world. Interesting, isn’t it? ?
マリオ (Mario Menti)
@yuril @toneji @kojinmanus interesting! This particular scene was actually set at dawn, even though the English subtitles translated it as twilight (but I think twilight in English could mean both dawn or dusk)
YuriL 🕊️🤺
@toneji @kojinmanus @mario In that case, the use of the word かはたれ is correct ✅ Anyway, かはたれ and たそかれ were initially used interchangeably, too (until they were more or less assigned to morning and evening respectively later time).
とねぢ ＠Minoh-don（piano.piano）
@yuril @mario @kojinmanus That's right.
The point is just to reverse the word order. That's an interesting idea. But if you translate it into English, it would be the same?
YuriL 🕊️🤺
@kojinmanus @toneji @mario Oh yes, dusk! That was the word I was searching for. I’ve always thought that twilight is about dusk rather than dawn. It’s kinda new to me that it refers to both. It’s #TIL ! https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/twilight
Jan Manus Leupert (マヌス)
@yuril @toneji @mario AFAIK both 彼は誰時 and 黄昏時 originally referred to both dusk and dawn, but you’re right, from some point onwards the former was used for dawn and the latter for dusk.
YuriL 🕊️🤺
@toneji @mario @kojinmanus I know right? While “たそかれ（誰そ彼）” is “Who is he?”, “かはたれ（彼は誰）” is “He is who?” ? No wonder why they used to use these words interchangeably whether dusk or dawn.
とねぢ ＠Minoh-don（piano.piano）
@yuril @mario @kojinmanus YuriL is right, "かはたそ" is the original Japanese word order. However, few Japanese know this word.
In Japanese, the time of day was subdivided in detail in the old days. In English, 朝 is morning, but in old Japanese, it is divided into the following phrases.
あかつき
しののめ
あけぼの
あさぼらけ
あした
The Sunrise is just around dawn. This has something to do with Japanese culture.
とねぢ ＠Minoh-don（piano.piano）
@kojinmanus @yuril @mario The English word twilight also has a mysterious atmosphere.
Jan Manus Leupert (マヌス)
@yuril @toneji @mario I think you’re right about twilight referring to dusk only.
YuriL 🕊️🤺
@kojinmanus @toneji @mario According to Cambridge Dictionary (UK), yes. But not so according to Merrimack-Webster (US). Interesting!
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/twilight
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/twilight
YuriL 🕊️🤺
@toneji @mario @kojinmanus Just found these images illustrating the timing of each word. We have at least 3 different words just for “dawn”. Wow.
マリオ (Mario Menti)
@yuril @kojinmanus @toneji sooo interesting (I'm not a native English speaker either, and to sloppy me it could mean both). FWIW in the scene I was watching, 彼は誰時 definitely referred to dawn, so that seems to agree with what everyone said (it's just the English subtitles that suggested twilight).
とねぢ ＠Minoh-don（piano.piano）
@yuril @mario @kojinmanus Oh, good image!
I forgot つとめて. It's early morning.
マリオ (Mario Menti)
@yuril @toneji @kojinmanus nice! I love Mastodon for these kinds of conversations! Anyway, it's late here and 彼は誰時を見たくない！?
マリオ (Mario Menti)
@IllBringYouFlow @kojinmanus ah yes, that's a great expression, and I remember coming across it before, but didn't think of it. You're right, it's the same idea
Flowers 🌻
@mario @kojinmanus we have an expression in french "entre chien et loup" (between dog and wolf) that, I feel, get the same idea of twilight as 彼は誰時. It's a time where you do not know really who is who
マリオ (Mario Menti)
@tattsunsora どうもありがとう！?
Tachi_the_was_at_sea
Hi
In old Japanese, 彼（か）means 'over there'.
In twilight, it gets dark, you can't know who is over there.
So, 彼(over there)誰(who)時(time)(かはたれどき) means 'twilight time' in Japanese.
To be precise, 彼は誰時 means dawn, 誰そ彼時(たそがれどき) means twilight.
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