HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
Still using #Telegram and not the much securer #Threema?
Maybe this might help you 2 reconsider:
#Telegram owner and former #Russian #Tech Oligarch,
#PavelDurov "... was arrested at the Le Bourget airport outside of Paris in August 2024 and faces numerous charges related to his social network, including allowing terrorism, drug trafficking, fraud, money laundering, and child abuse content on Telegram. The founder of the messaging app 👉faces up to 20 years in prison👈."
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
#SurveillanceState #Surveillance #Technology #Meta
(1/n)
👉Which #Messenger To Replace the #DataKraken #WhatsApp with? 👈
(1/n)
True, however the most important criterion is that a replacement messenger app for #WhatsApp must have any chance at replacing #WhatsApp.
As a friend of mine phrased it here on Mastodon: "I have a hard time convincing my friend and family even to switch to [the known services,] #Signal or #Threema.
As...
the vril
@HistoPol better a decentralized system not in company hands
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
👉Which #Messenger To Replace the #DataKraken #WhatsApp with? 👈
(2/n)
... I've pointed out in an older thread 🧵 here and Cory @pluralistic in a now famous speech about #Enshittification, there's the severe lock-in effect, the negative aspects of the #NetworkEffect.
There are #XMPP and #Matrix, the "ancient" and "obvious" #FOSS choices. I've never used them but from what I've read, they were never able to gain much market share and are...
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
👉Which #Messenger To Replace the #DataKraken #WhatsApp with? 👈
(3/n)
... still relegated to the "nerd niche," maybe unjustly so by now, IDK. (?)
https://mstdn.social/@distopico/111007271703326651
As @kino put it succintly in that convo,
"👉At this point I'm not taking the open source == good (just coz) argument at face...
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
👉Which #Messenger To Replace the #DataKraken #WhatsApp with? 👈
(4/n)
....value anymore.👈 The future of #Matrix always seems somehow, em.. unconfirmed? An interesting project. I wonder where it will go. There's been a LOT of #VC [#VentureCapital] funding up to now, one might assume some return is expected at some point. Maybe not though. I've run #Jabber servers in the past,...
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
👉Which #Messenger To Replace the #DataKraken #WhatsApp with? 👈
(5/n)
... I still have one, but 👉federated #XMPP just somehow can't seem to take hold outside of its own niche" 👈.
If you wanted to dig down even further, you'd get to the point where you'd have to deal with #Protocols:
https://eattherich.club/@jmhorner/110991346559623491
A French 🇫🇷 librarian association made an...
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
👉Which #Messenger To Replace the #DataKraken #WhatsApp with? 👈
(6/n)
... extensive analysis of alternatives about 2 years ago, most of which I had never heard of, despite the extensive discussions we've had here several times here in the #Fediverse (of which I can only still find one convo:
https://mastodon.social/@HistoPol/110989244048659250
There are but 2 alternatives of that French market research, #Olvid and #DataBag, that still made it...
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
👉Which #Messenger To Replace the #DataKraken #WhatsApp with? 👈
(7/n)
... 👉our international discussion: 👈
https://pleroma.iselfhost.com/objects/ea0bf992-d6f0-41c8-b71a-3129fa725f72
In conclusion, as all services using #US servers like signal have been compromised since the #CloudAct went into force,
"Since #Signal's entire traffic runs over the clouds of #Amazon [#AWS,] #Google, #Microsoft & #Cloudflare.
👉All US services...
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
👉Which #Messenger To Replace the #DataKraken #WhatsApp with? 👈
(9/n)
... can pick up your meta data directly from there, thanks to the [#US] #CloudACT👈:... "
... my conclusion has been that, 👉despite some concerning political utterings by a #Threema board member and the fact that, for years, it's encryption technology had been outdated...
https://schnaeppchenfuchs.com/news/threema-kritik-verschluesselung
... we should *still* rally around...
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
👉Which #Messenger To Replace the #DataKraken #WhatsApp with? 👈
(9/n)
... pushing #Threema for the general public, as it is the "least of all evil." This, in particular, as #WhatsApp owner #Meta is the worst/most leaky offender of them all. 👈
The danger is not only immemt, but has been very real for many for some years, as the #ProjectAnalyticaSummit showed years after #Meta's #ProjectAnalyticaScandal in the wake...
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
👉Which #Messenger To Replace the #DataKraken #WhatsApp with? 👈
(10/n)
... of #Facebook's #CambridgeAnalyticaScandal:
https://mastodon.social/@HistoPol/110536835544913854
No-one is safe from the FBI and the NSA anymore, as even during the #Biden Administration, illegal warrantless searches were frequent:
https://mastodon.social/@HistoPol/114024972369241754.
Even the #FourthEstate, not only in #LatinAmerica, but also the #US has been targeted;
https://mastodon.social/@HistoPol/113925430001498982:
...
Alexander Goeres
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
I don't doubt your statement, as Dubrov apparently survived 60 trips to bis mirher country after becoming a persona non grata officially. So, he didnt get any tea of the Kremlin brand. 😉
Still, for me that is just circumstancial evidence and no proof that #Dubrov is a #KremlinOperative or asset.
Any proof for your claim?
Magical Cat
@HistoPol I would add to "Telegram" details the aspect of being controlled by a Kremlin operative. It is something similar to CloudAct effect, but worse. This is why I do not trust to Telegram as product no matter what it declares about its data collection practices.
Magical Cat
@HistoPol I have access only to open sources, so all evidence I have is of that kind "he is allowed to be a billionaire in putin's ruzzia". In Ukraine both SBU and activists investigated Telegram and collected various technical evidence. I seen here in the Fediverse links to related articles and blogs by activists.
Example of related news: https://unn.ua/en/news/telegram-cooperates-with-roskomnadzor-and-the-fsb-and-stores-user-data-indefinitely-spravdi
Ulli
@HistoPol @thevril
It's optional to store an mobile number or/and email in #Threema
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
👉Which #Messenger To Replace the #DataKraken #WhatsApp with? 👈
(11/n)
...via@TheGuardian:
"👉#WhatsApp says journalists and civil society members were targets of #Israeli spyware,... #ParagonSolutions...1)
👉Nearly 100 journalists and other members of civil society👈 using WhatsApp, the popular messaging app owned by #Meta,...
👉It is way past midnight to stop using #Meta products 2). 👈
2)
Or other #BigTech apps.
//
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
👉Which #Messenger To Replace the #DataKraken #WhatsApp with? 👈
(12/12)
Founded with American VC, #Israeli spyware firm #ParagonSolution seems to be coming full circle: the #US VC company AE Industrial Ventures seems to have acquired it recently:
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
👉Which #Messenger To Replace the #DataKraken #WhatsApp with? 👈
(12/12)
Founded with American VC, #Israeli spyware firm #ParagonSolution seems to be coming full circle: the #US VC company AE Industrial Partners seems to have acquired it recently:
https://mastodon.social/@HistoPol/113925441768326458
...shortly after signing a $2m contract with the infamous #ICE:
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
@URH1
Thanks.
That's true, "optional."
For the people who "need" to be found that might be an option. I think that is rather unwise, though.
A phone number is stored in so many webshops, etc., there's hardly a better primary key for aggregating information about a person.
So, hands off the phone number option.
Selling each bit of information there is of users is a multi-bn $ global industry.
Debacle
@HistoPol @thevril @pluralistic
#XMPP is used by billions of people in the closed, non-free manifestation of Whatsapp, Google FCM, and applications like Zoom, Fortnite, Grindr, and many more. At least, that shows us, that the techology works.
XMPP or #Jabber in the sense of an open and free #federation is a niche, indeed. Network effect, lack of marketing and very often lack of appealing client design are to blame. Jabber just does not have multi million VC funding.
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
#XMPP #Messenger #SocialMedia ownership
(1/n)
Thank you for the clarification. I did state (at least in the convo mentioned) that #XMPP is (but) a protocol.
The FOSS messenger(s) based on it, however, to my knowledge, are but niche apps for the technologically savvy.--No-one of my RL contacts has ever mentioned it (nor represantive sample, OFC.)
#Jabber, w/o having any further knowledge other than the superficial one...
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
@debacle @thevril @pluralistic
#XMPP #Messenger #SocialMedia ownership
(2/n)
...described, would, strategically speaking, be an excellent solution for society to re-own its #DigitalMarketSquare, or as US film maker and storyteller #MatthewCooke, phrased it:
👉 "Should Society Own its Social Media"?
IMHO: OFC!!!👈
IMO, it is the chief requisite of maintaining its individual freedom!
https://mastodon.social/@HistoPol/110281325520572275
//
PositivDenken 🤯
@HistoPol @debacle @thevril @pluralistic we need to own our means of communication. So we can guarantee it’s not being tampered with. And as such it can only be built on free and open standards.
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
#FreedomOfSpeech #FreedomOfThought
#PreventThoughtCrime ideology
Agree 100%. IMO, we've already lost our freedom in the digital sphere and need to reclaim it.
#MathewCooke takes a similar stance:
https://americanoriginstories.buzzsprout.com/577525/12292745-should-society-own-its-social-media
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
Thx. I like the privacy strategy:
"Other apps have user IDs: Signal, Matrix, Session, Briar, Jami, Cwtch, etc.
SimpleX does not, not even random numbers.
This radically improves your privacy. "
However:
"SimpleX Chat Ltd is a 👉 seed stage startup👈 with a lot of user growth in 2022-2023, and a lot of exciting technical and product problems to solve to grow faster.
We currently have 6 full-time people in the team.
We want to add 2 people ..."
Adrian Wüthrich 🛡️
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
#SurveillanceState #Surveillance #Technology #Meta
👉Which #Messenger To Replace the #DataKraken #WhatsApp with? 👈
(1/2)
Wie schon immer das Häschen wusste: "Haddu Netzwerk, haddu Probleme."
Nein, das meinte ich nicht.
Was ich meinte, ist dass die Software für einen Massenrollout einfach zu neu ist und für den Einsatz in Organisationen fehlt einfach der Track Reckord.
Innovation ist bei der Software-...
Adrian Wüthrich 🛡️
@HistoPol @URH1 @thevril ja simplex hat ein paar „baustellen“ u. „probleme“ die es asap zu lösen gibt
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
#Simplex
(2/3)
...(Lösungs-)Auswahl nur ein Kriterium.
Bei derart "systemkritischen" Anwendungen ist das "Lieferantenrisiko" m.E. mindestens genauso wichtig. Der #Startup hat es bislang "einfach nicht im Kreuz".
Außerdem ist natürlich der bisherige "Netzwerkeffekt" negativ zu bewerten (zu wenige Installationen).
Hinzu kommt, dass ich ein großes Länderrisiko sehe: seit dem #Brexit ging es mit dem #Datenschutz im #UK...
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
@wuethrich @URH1 @thevril
#Simplex
(3/3)
...gewaltig bergab. Gerichtliche Durchgriffsrechte hat man über die #GDPDR /#DSGVO nicht mehr.
Das alleine schon wäre, bei aller technischen Innovation, für mich schon ein k.o.-Kriterium.
Und warum sollte ich das für eine weitere nicht-FOSS-Lösung risikieren?
Außer der etwas zu Trump-freundlichen Einstellung eines Verwaltungsratsmitglieds & dem nicht-FOSS-Ansatz sehe ich bislang beim schon ziemlich verbreiteten #Threema keine gravierenden Nachteile.
contrapunctus ✊🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️
@HistoPol @debacle @thevril @pluralistic Quicksy is a great #XMPP service (with Android and iOS clients), which is trivially easy to join. Uses phone numbers for registration.
https://quicksy.im/
Prav is a fork of Quicksy with only an Android client for now, but with a #cooperative structure and better customer support.
https://prav.app/
Why Prav is Important
https://contrapunctus.codeberg.page/blog/why-prav-is-important.html
1/
the vril
@debacle @HistoPol @pluralistic I'm using XMPP with quite all my friends. Now there are a lot of good software and guide.
I like also Delta Chat
contrapunctus ✊🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️
@HistoPol @debacle @thevril @pluralistic Both Prav and Quicksy accounts can be used with any XMPP client, and can talk to any XMPP server - no lock-in.
And those who don't like using phone numbers for registration can use other services like https://conversations.im and still talk to Quicksy and Prav users.
2/
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
@contrapunctus
Thanks for sharing this!
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
Niche: This, you'd have to ask @kino, as the quote is from him/her:
https://mastodon.social/@HistoPol/114184106658296015 ;)
However, from a marketing perspective, a products with its pros and cons fulfills the needs of certain people, who may be grouped in "target markets." If that market segment is very small, it is called a "niche."
In thus case, I assume that niche is the one for IT geeks. ;)
Schlüssellochkind 👁️
@HistoPol
Was meinst du mit "eigener Nische"? Du vergleichst schließlich mit whatsapp, das, vom mangelden Interconnect betrachtet, noch weniger aus seiner viel engeren Nische bricht.
Einzig die angeblich geringen Nutzerzahlen, wenn man die diversen Ingamechats ignoriert die auf Basis xmpp laufen und daß auch whatsapp im Grunde nur kapitalisiertes xmpp ist, verorten es so nischig wie das fediverse wenn es um soso-Netzwerke geht. 🙃
@thevril @pluralistic @kino
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
(1/2)
Gegenüber #WhatDepp und #Meta-Produkten sind faktisch alle Zwerge oder gar Ameisen (gewesen), siehe meine Untere Grafik:
https://mastodon.social/@HistoPol/110661216855577004
Es ist schon schwierig Leute dazu zu bewegen, #Signal oder gar #Threema zu benutzen, über die wenigstens in Nicht-IT-Publikationen geschrieben wird.
Ich kenne z. B. nach wie vor niemand persönlich, der #XMPP mit entsprechenden "Geek-Apps" benutzt.
#Mastodon...
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
@stubenhocker @thevril @pluralistic @kino
... ist vom Bekanntheitsgrad nach meiner Einschätzung etwas unter #Signal, jedoch vor #Threema.
//
Schlüssellochkind 👁️
@HistoPol
Well, just like similar to the #fediverse.. 🤷♂️
@thevril @pluralistic
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
@stubenhocker
Nicht so ganz vom Bekanntheitsgrad her, sh. restliche Antwort.
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
Nicht so ganz vom Bekanntheitsgrad her, sh. restliche Antwort.
Außerdem scheint es für die #CMPP-basierten Apps zu viele Alternativen zu geben, +ähnlich+ dem Fedoversum, nur dass es da um eindeutige Nutzungsunterschiede und nicht nur um Instant Messaging geht, vgl. Grafik:
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
Ähnlich ging es mir moöit #Threema.
Der #Netzwekeffekt von #WhatsDepp über Schulen, Arbeit, Vereine, usw. ist fürchterlich.
Schlüssellochkind 👁️
@HistoPol
Geek-Apps?
Naja, so 5-7 Leute konnte ich bewegen Forks von conversations parallel zu installieren, nur weil mit mir kein anderer Kompromiß in Fernkontakt zu bleiben möglich war. Ja das war nicht leicht und fällt null ins Gewicht, zeigte mir aber auch ohne radikale Konsequenz mich zu keinem der Platzhirsche breitschlagen zu lassen wäre nicht mal das gegangen..
@thevril @pluralistic @kino
Schlüssellochkind 👁️
@HistoPol
Xmpp ist wohl das am meisten unwissentlich genutzte System, also unbekannt, obwohl "meine" App / Game es nutzt. 😁
@thevril @pluralistic @kino
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
#Messenger Apps mit #XMPP-Protokoll
Na ja, es ist ja nur ein Protokoll, genau wie das #ActivityPub protocol fürs Fediversum.
Das war mal überfällig--Übersicht über mögliche Apps:
https://eversten.net/blog/tabelle/
Ich vermute mal, die können auch alle miteinander komunizieren.
Mich würden die aktiven Nutzerzahlen interessieren, aber nachdem 95% der Apps nach dem 3. Monat nicht mehr genutzt werden...
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
#Messenger Apps mit #XMPP-Protokoll
Na ja, es ist ja nur ein Protokoll, genau wie das #ActivityPub protocol fürs Fediversum.
Das war mal überfällig--Übersicht über mögliche Apps:
https://eversten.net/blog/tabelle/
Ich vermute mal, die können auch alle miteinander komunizieren.
Mich würden die aktiven Nutzerzahlen interessieren, aber nachdem 95% der Apps nach dem 3. Monat nicht mehr genutzt werden...
"Messenger, die den offenen Standard xmpp.org verwenden."
@thevril @pluralistic @kino
Schlüssellochkind 👁️
@HistoPol Naja, ähnlich wie es dein Hinweis aufs fediverse schon macht, geht es wohl eher darum eine Barriere im Kopf aufzulösem, die vielleicht dazu beiträgt xmpp in die Nerdecke zu schieben.
Es sind ja nicht die Apps die miteinander kommunizieren, nur weil whatsapp, facebook & co beschlossen haben xmpp proprietär zu nutzen und ihre Server von der Föderation auszuschließen.
Bei Email fragt eigentlich auch niemand: "Welche App issn das?" 🤷♂️
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