saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
I say there is one true god.
And the true anti-god is whatever you are currently worshipping.
The true god will punish you in the afterlife for you did devil workship.
Show me wrong.
Proof me wrong.
my true god who considers your god to be the anti-god has the same evidence as whatever you are currently worshipping.
djsumdog
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@boghan Billons of currently living humans are explicitly NOT believing in the abrahamic god (not really convincing I am just saying this due to your "everyone agrees" mention).
In the past I spoke about evidence.
I said there's no evidence for god without knowing that.
Without any ulterior motive: the idea with the most evidence wins. I don't really want to fight about "no evidence" versus "little evidence".
We have strong reasons to believe deities are not existing.
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@boghan Yes I said there's no evidence. Perhaps everyone else things there is a chance of a non-zero amount of evidence. Ok. Perhaps a technicality but I am willing to update my stance on this: I'm not denying there's evidence. I'm saying there's not strong enough evidencs to be relevant in any legitimate discussion of the topic.
The evidence needs to be enough to be more evidence than alternative ideas. That's not unfair that's how reasoning works ("epistemiology" more or less)
boghana
@saxnot you're not representing what i said honestly: i said that almost everyone (on the planet, but also in philosophical circles) agrees that there is at least some evidence. which is true prima facie because most people believe in some kind of god, and even in atheist spaces agnostics tend not to think that there's absolutely no evidence
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@boghan i'm not sure who "almost everyone agrees" refers to.
Billons of currently living humans are explicitly NOT believing in the abrahamic god.
Who's "almost everyone"?
Your peer group?
Theologicans?
I certainly don't believe in any abrahamic god as decribed by bible / koran / thora.
Almost everyone (in east germany) agrees there's no god.
East germany is pretty atheistic that's why I mention it. I could just have said "my peer group" or any other group
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@boghan ... why should "god" be the creator of the design?
why not a sentient rock? why not zeus?
Why should "god" be the creator and not "zeus" or my made-up "anti-god"?
I'm not aware of evidence why it should be your god and not a yet to be discovered sentient rock.
Millions of people believe(d) in sentient rocks and rock trolls to borrow your call from authority from earlier.
Thanks for naming an argument & source.
What makes this idea 2 more complling(=evidence) than the other ideas?
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@boghan i've researched Alex O'Connors fine tuning argument and it appears to be identical to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmaker_analogy or "intelligent design".
We have lots of evidence of evolution creating complex organs and species with unsuited organs dying off.
That argument is old as hell and the argument is not sound.
We observe something (complex beings).
We have idea 1 in the race (evolution) and idea 2 of an intelligent design created by an god.
We have a bunch of evidence for idea 1 but why…
boghana
@saxnot almost everyone agrees that there is some evidence for God as purely an intentional creator of all things; i.e fine tuning (for example Alex O'Connor counts fine tuning as a point for God on the evidence front), various cosmological arguments; the difference in opinion between rational people usually comes down to weighing up that evidence and deliberating based on prior principles of reasoning. for most atheists, it's that they think there's *insufficient* evidence, not no evidence.
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@boghan your (not-anti) god has no evidence so there's no reason to believe in it.
The god has no evidence for it, therefore it's prudent to believe in either one of the imaginary spirits.
But you say there's evidence and I'm willing to believe you. What evidence? You can link to it, send a photo, whatever is easiest.
It can be a burning bush, a prophecy a ray of light or whatever else suffices to show the existence of god. No need to show me an old man on a cloud. I'm happy with anything
boghana
@saxnot in that case, where the anti-god is different from God in having no evidence for it, it's pretty easy to just say "your anti-god has no evidence so there's no reason to believe in it"
the anti-god has no evidence for it, God has evidence for Him, therefore it's prudent to believe in God and not the anti-god
and as for your last point, it's pretty easy to establish that if God exists, there are no other gods when you already believe in God, so it's moot
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@boghan i claim these to be two different entities.
My evidence is nothing (that's my point). It's best to not believe in any of them since both are creations of my mind I made them up and it's probably good to give noone this power over ones mind.
You say that the entities are equivalences of each other. Even if so the riddle still works. It doesn't rely on the gods being separate entities. The current worshippers will be punished from the "true god" simply for not guessing correctly
boghana
@saxnot
so, if your god has all of the same properties, which ultimately are analogies for the singular essence of God, then it must also be God, and if it is God it will not punish me for worshipping it. easy peasy
(pt. 2)
boghana
@saxnot
if there is a god which has the same evidence for it as mine, it also has exactly the same evidence of its properties, because of the doctrine of divine simplicity, in which the divine essence is simple: all properties which are in God are one, identical to His existence. if two things have exactly the same properties, they are not two things, they are one (consider two squares with the exact same side lengths, rotation, location, colour; they are just one square).
(pt. 1)
djsumdog
asbestosenjoyer666
boghana
@djsumdog @saxnot @melonhusk i don't like calling science faith because it makes internet atheists uncomfortable 👉 👈
but i will certainly point out that there are certain dogmas (i.e empiricism) inherent to the practice
djsumdog
And yet people who believe in "science" will detrimentally defend vaccines. But this term itself is incredibly complex, and encompasses a huge variety of things.
You claim science is about skepticism, to the point of saying the idea of science being a faith isn't true. So you're not really testing this idea.
There is always a limit to what you can personally know, in your head and by your own experiments. You have faith others have done the work whenever you get in an airplane and trust it. You can claim you know the science about how lift is generated, but few have really done those experiment themselves, in detail.
You are always depended on believing what others have told you, verifying it sometimes through observation, but often entirely by faith.
Do you believe viruses exist? Do you have an electron microscope lying around, or the other tools needed to visualize them? You're believing what many witnesses have told you based on faith, or the renderings they've made, not so different from people saying x rose from the dead.
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@boghan @melonhusk @djsumdog yeah I'm on her side once
science is practicing being sceptic
faith is practicing... not being so sceptic
boghana
@melonhusk @saxnot @djsumdog totally agree, that's why i don't argue with faith as my reason
djsumdog
boghana
@djsumdog @saxnot @melonhusk aha, i see why your profile had a warning on it now. don't interact with me please
boghana
@saxnot @djsumdog @melonhusk lol
faith doesn't mean worshipping something at a shrine or whatever
it's just, as Hebrews puts it:
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@boghan @djsumdog @melonhusk "uncomfortable" might be the wrong word.
"side eyeing your annoying small brother" describes it better.
call it a faith all you want.
Believe I have a shrine of Descartes and I light a candle at it.
you can believe it. It won't make it real but at least it's amusing for the rest of us
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@boghan @melonhusk @djsumdog science develops and re-invents itself.
religion develops and re-invents itself
both changed in the past millenia
heck they even changed in the last decade.
This doesn't make their identity wane.
boghana
@saxnot @melonhusk @djsumdog i have to doubt this one
inductive experiment is very old
science as we know it today only really got off the ground in the 16th century during the renaissance, as there was a surge of opposition to the traditional aristotelian view. the first video https://podcasts.ox.ac.uk/series/general-philosophy here explains it pretty well
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@melonhusk @boghan @djsumdog yeah science is not a faith at all and what we call science is older than christianity
djsumdog
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@djsumdog @boghan @melonhusk why are we mutual followers?
You're willingly blind to the effects of vaccines? Of the millions saved against covid, polio, tetanus and all that stuff?
I don't see a warning but if it's true you believe what you just said in regards to science and vaccines then ooof just unfollow me wtf
djsumdog
djsumdog
Science doesn't ask for your belief but just for your eyes.
I just said you can't observe everything yourself. It's not your eyes. It is your faith in information dissemination.
The reality itself is not affected by whatever religion you pick (as you said).
I never said that. I never said your faith affects reality. Reality stays the same. Your faith (in God and or Science affects your perception of the world).
e. g. the effectiveness of vaccines which you mentioned are extremely easy to see.
No they're not. Did you obverse them? Tremendous amounts of data about side effects and deaths have been censored. YouTube and Facebook literally banned any and all videos with dissent. Just look at this list. Look at this list and tell me you have an accurate view of the world:
https://battlepenguin.com/tech/the-disappearing-videos-of-youtube/
Millions in my country did not die and I can see that.
I know people personally who died within days after their first shots. One only needs to look at the total all cause mortality and see the introduce of vaccines to see the positive correlation. Must of this research is censored on Google, YouTube and the big Internet in general, making it easy for science people to dismiss.
Read the books they want to burn.
the words you chose are not arranging into a coherent argument ...how expensive microscopes are
I think I made a pretty valid points. You've made obvious strawmans, and argue things I never said.
to me personally science is not a faith.
But IT IS. It so clearly is! Everything your saying is literally a statement of faith! The fact that you can't even see it is hilarious and tragic. A Christian says they don't have a religion but a relationship with the true God.
You can change the words around, but faith is still faith. I think you may not understand what faith is.
I do not wish to continue talking to you
The frontal cortex of the brain is a powerful thing. It is what pushed back when someone challenges our core beliefs. It is how the man or woman of God pushed back against heresy. It's an evolutionary defense mechanism for conformity to strengthen one tribe against another. It does not matter if the believes are "right" or "true," only that you village survives.
Well thank you for engaging. I've learned a lot. It's sad your reaction is "I don't want to talk to the person who challenged my ideas." .. In fact you just insult that person, call their arguments bad, and desire to get in the last word while you plug your ears and go "la la la" .. such people can never really challenge their view on the nature of our reality.
But I've been nothing but nice to you. Maybe someone else will learn something from this. Maybe one day you will. 🌱
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@djsumdog @melonhusk i hope I answeres all questions.
I do not wish to continue talking to you
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@djsumdog @melonhusk you made the mistake to assume I am not testing thr relationship of science and skepticism.
In fact I made no mention about my previous journey before communicating that sentence to you. I have good reason to believe that. Perhaps you should asked "Why?" instead of assuming I never asked why myself.
But you showed enough bad faith that I'm not willing to make this to a topic. Perhaps with others, sure but not with you here.
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@djsumdog @melonhusk to me personally science is not a faith. This believe is shared by a lot of people so I guess this makes you the odd one out in regards to this ontology question.
Yes I am depending on what others figured out every source of information has an inherent epistemological quality and lots of science works based on the authority of results. I did not say authority of people but authority of "whatever works best". Very very different from faith. Reality requires no faith
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@djsumdog @melonhusk and my conclusion is that the press e. g. Tagesschau is pretty accurante.
I did not say infallible but it's pretty ok. And that's a lot better than the extreme you proposed of being unsure about anything or the other extreme of blind faith.
Perhaps it's a mystery to you how I can have all these beliefs some of which with evidence I have never witnessed and some of which superficially incompatible with each other but it's no matter of faith.
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@djsumdog @(…)boghan @melonhusk … unclear why religion should provide this instead. Even if I am being generous and assume you were talking about the feeling of assurance even then the words you chose are not arranging into a coherent argument. You picked a goal noone talked about before and then failed to make a point with it. Bravo.
Yes I could spiral down and doubt the press about corona and look up how expensive microscopes are or I could not do it. A lot of things I verified independently…
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@djsumdog @boghan @melonhusk a small bit of this is true but your conclusion is garbage sorry.
Science doesn't ask for your belief but just for your eyes.
The reality itself is not affected by whatever religion you pick (as you said).
e. g. the effectiveness of vaccines which you mentioned are extremely easy to see. Millions in my country did not die and I can see that.
There's a limit to what I know. I won't reproduce lift mechanics at home. Noone except you said this is a goal and it's…
djsumdog
Are you a licensed doctor?
Appeal to authority. Does only the Priest know God? You know licensed doctors commit malpractice. Licensed doctors prescribed fenn-fenn, Vioxx and Thalidomide.
You know a doctor once told me, going into the career, you will screw up an kill someone. Even as a GP, it's something everyone will do and you have to live with it.
On your blog you write about Ivermectin which is not effective against Covid. Only people of low epistemological quality fall for what you fell for …
Well that's insulting. I list all my sources and the papers I've read and people I trust. I did my research and came to a different conclusion. No reason to insult me. I did the work. Where's your blog post with your work? If you did the work and came to the opposite conclusion, that's fine. No one is forcing you to take a drug ....oh wait .. every world government tried to get people to take a drug (a vaccine is just a drug, an no one should ever be forced to take government mandated medication).
I feel like you can't just address any argument. You always have to turn condescending. I have not done the same to you sir.
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@djsumdog @(…)boghan @melonhusk i've already made a judgement and I am quite happy with it.
Ask yourself:
Are you a licensed doctor?
The medical expert around you do they consider you competent?
From what I've seen those who are most likely to have expertise on this topic can't vouch for you. I've spoken about epistemological quality before.
On your blog you write about Ivermectin which is not effective against Covid. Only people of low epistemological quality fall for what you fell for …
djsumdog
You appear to lack any qualification.
Appeal to authority
You parrot widely dismissed misconceptions.
Propaganda is very powerful. Nero burned Rome and blamed the Christians, or did he? A woman sued McDonalds for spilling coffee on herself in a frivolous lawsuit .. oh no wait, that was McDonalds paid for propaganda. Leaded gasoline was perfectly safe, oh no wait .. it literally lowers IQ in children and is banned all over the world.
You made a very bad first impression by fumbling through an attack towards me.
Are you projecting? The only person attacking is you sir.
We others in this thread don't need any faith for we have reality on our side.
That's literally a statement of faith.
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@djsumdog @melonhusk my aforementioned judgement is: I won't trust you on this.
You contradict solid effectiveness studies which can be seen publicly in every country of the world.
You appear to lack any qualification.
You parrot widely dismissed misconceptions.
You made a very bad first impression by fumbling through an attack towards me.
Perhaps you need faith to believe in all of these.
We others in this thread don't need any faith for we have reality on our side.
djsumdog
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@djsumdog @melonhusk for now I will not block you, not defollow you, etc.
be warned I know lots of crazy people and I have a very specific area where I interact with said people and mastodon ain't it. It's very healthy for me to block crazy anti-vax losers on this account for the people I preach to are more local and more relevant to me. Plus noone needs to give a reason to keep their timeline clean.
Just… take it down a notch when interacting with me.
djsumdog
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@djsumdog @melonhusk > Appeal to authority.
It's a qualification not an authority.
All the things you mentioned a medical expert will be leagues better than a non-medical expert.
I already said it's a gauge in epistemological quality and for this specific conversation regarding this topic you already squandered the chance to be taken seriously
djsumdog
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@djsumdog @melonhusk > I have not done the same to you sir.
untrue
see: your previous messages
djsumdog
If everything I say about cars is wrong would you let me repair yours? No.
I mean, I do my own car work. So I can tell if someone knows about cars. I have to have faith in others about things I don't do work in.
If you can't open your eyes keep at least your mouth shut about it
The freedom to speak and put out challenging ideas is the chief way to avoid group think. I mentioned earlier how Leaded Gasoline was used for DECADES and the EXPERTS considered it safe. Now we know it caused irreversible damage. Those experts were very wrong.
Just recently, we see the Biden administration worked hard to prevent releasing Fluoride studies on IQ. It literally lowers the IQ of children and we're seeing it removed slowing around America.
Let me ask you something ... what have you believed in the past that you realize you are wrong about now?
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@djsumdog @melonhusk > Well that's insulting
no it's my impression. You published it and sent it to me so live with me considering this misinformed slander.
If everything I say about cars is wrong would you let me repair yours? No. Everything you write in regards to medicine is misinformation of yesteryear.
Vaccines are incredible effective and saved millions during corona and even before that. If you can't open your eyes keep at least your mouth shut about it
skylar :confederateflag:??? :z:
skylar :confederateflag:??? :z:
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@skylar @djsumdog @melonhusk i think i am going to disassociate myself from these "random online shizos".
I'm not likely to answer again
djsumdog
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@melonhusk @boghan @djsumdog I want to make it clear that me favouriting your toots is currently used as a read receipt and does not imply me (dis)liking a specific toot.
Here's the announcement of that https://chaos.social/@saxnot/113976425057529436
Usually I favourite what I like but then you would have seen it sparingly in this convo. Speaking to all three of you
djsumdog
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@djsumdog @melonhusk you said nobody cares
you cared enough to write me
Put together: you say you are a nobody.
I don't know why you said that but I will include you in my thoughts and prayers. I will mention you by name in my communication with our lord and savior satan. Perhaps the morning star will see you and reach out to you and help you with your struggles
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@djsumdog @melonhusk great rational argument from the person who injected himself into an already ongoing conversation and claimed I was having trouble of faith.
djsumdog
saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN
@djsumdog @melonhusk ngl while shitposting it did make some sense:
you wrote about vaccines and this dewormer stuff
= lost contact to reality / medical wisdom
The morning star (lucifer) is the bringer of light, the embodiment of enlightenment.
Thus despite me writing it as a shitpost it makes sense to hope that you get to your senses and accept the effectiveness of vaccines among other things you are lost on
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