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   Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 03:32:11 JST Paul Cantrell

   • wet forest moon folklorist

   Some important reminders of history and the reality of our society’s power structures in this thread from @seachanger:

   1/
   https://alaskan.social/@seachanger/113006609429933337

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 03:39:55 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     There’s also a reminder here, if we take a moment, about what it is to be a politician.

     Bruce Schneier made a remark to me long ago that really stuck with me. I was rambling about the nonsensical structure of copyright law or somesuch, and said something along the lines of “can’t lawmakers see how factually •wrong• they are?”

     He said, “Politicians don’t care about correctness. They care about consensus.”

     What really struck me was his lack of malice. Not a dig, just a fact: it’s the job.

     2/

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 03:44:17 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     Contrast the job of •activist• with the job of •politician•.

     An activist’s job is to change people, to change society — starting with people’s worldview, with what they see and what they believe and how they inhabit their lives.

     A politician’s job is also to change the world — but to use existing structures to reify worldviews that largely •already exist•. And yes, the bully pulpit matters! Oratory matters! But fundamentally, the job is about achieve •concrete, near-term• gains.

     3/

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 03:47:21 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     It thus follows that politicians and political parties are •lagging• indicators of change.

     There’s an old saying that “politics is the art of the possible.” So is activism! But:

     Activists look to the •hypothetically• possible. Politicians look to the •currently• possible.

     These roles are complementary. Both are crucially necessary. And when they overlap, look out world! But they are fundamentally different jobs.

     4/

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 03:51:46 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     It’s easy to make category errors about these different roles.

     It’s a category to expect activists to be politicians. Lecturing protestors about how, oh, say, “Black lives matter” is impolitic because it makes white people uncomfortable?? My dude, making white people uncomfortable is their •job•! (And yes, for those who’ve forgotten or were born yesterday, that exact lecture ran rampant when the slogan first appeared.)

     5/

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 03:54:10 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     It’s a category error to expect politicians to be activists. Honestly expecting politicians to say out loud the idealistic and just and good and just fundamentally •true• thing, even if saying it plainly loses key voters? loses the election? loses the election and ushers a fascist into power and ends democracy? My dude, you are asking the politicians not to do their job!

     6/

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 03:58:24 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     Those protestors outside the DNC making a stand for Palestine, making this crushing collective suffering heard where hearing it is uncomfortable? I see them as doing their job.

     And the DNC organizers carefully calibrating who is on stage and what the message is, what lines and what framing and what elisions will win this election? I see them as doing their job too.

     And the activists naming those elisions? And the politicians eliding anyway? All doing their jobs.

     7/

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 04:00:31 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     • Paul_IPv6

     @paul_ipv6
     I wouldn’t be •quite• that harsh about them “not caring about actual solutions.” I do think that many politicians, far more than we generally, truly want things to be better and truly believe they are helping with that.

     It’s more like they want to adopt one of the possible consensus opinions as their own, the one that moves in the direction of a desired outcome.

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     Paul_IPv6 (paul_ipv6@infosec.exchange)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 04:00:33 JST Paul_IPv6

     in reply to

     @inthehands

     yup. most don't care about actual solutions. they just want to be seen as doing something about the problem. they want to figure out the status quo/consensus opinion, then adopt that as their opinion du jour.

     we, as technologists, can't just educate them, explain the risks, explore potential solutions. we also have to spoon feed them the "spin", the message they can use to show that they "did something" and are "on the right side of the argument". without that spin, they'll never care.

     when we can both give unbiased, real info and also help them spin it, we will get what we want more often.

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     vashbear (vashbear@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 04:02:07 JST vashbear

     in reply to

     @inthehands

     Overall, I have been impressed with the DNC. But disappointed in the lack of acknowledgement of the suffering and loss of life of innocent Palestinians -- especially children.

     I hope Harris can at least acknowledge that, even if she avoids pointing out US funding of it for political calculations.

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 04:04:37 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     Activists are looking at the map, watching the route. Politicians are looking at the ground, watching their step.

     Without the former, we’re lost. Without the latter, we fall flat on our face in the mud.

     8/

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 04:07:33 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     When it works — and it’s a big “when” — the two roles of activist and politician work in concert, a two-stroke engine of change.

     Consider post 5 upthread: less than 10 years ago, the phrase “Black Lives Matter” was radioactive. Now we white people put it on lawn signs to show we’re the Good Ones. That shift has brought things into the realm of possibility for politicians that simply were not before — like, say, Keith Ellison getting convictions for the officers who murdered George Floyd.

     9/

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 04:10:40 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     My request — of you, of myself, of activists, of politicians, of everyone who cares about the world getting better — is to recognize the existence of these different roles,

     to recognize the necessity of both,

     to recognize which situations call for one versus the other,

     and to nurture both in the places where they’re doing good, however much they may vex and enrage us at times.

     /end

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 04:49:26 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     • Paul_IPv6

     @paul_ipv6
     I still think you’re giving politicians far, far too little credit. It’s this:

     partial solutions for which there is consensus > better solutions that don’t have consensus

     Your fixation on giving politicians a “story” isn’t about convincing •them•. It’s about helping them convince others. And for some actual solutions, no story is going to create the consensus in the current moment. That’s where activism comes in.

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     Paul_IPv6 (paul_ipv6@infosec.exchange)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 04:49:27 JST Paul_IPv6

     in reply to

     @inthehands

     yeah. probably more "actual solutions are pretty low in the priority queue". it's not that they are against fixing things. it's just not what they put as a top goal.

     that's why if we can give them a "story" they think they can run with to go with actual solutions, we'll get more actual solutions.

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 04:53:15 JST Paul Cantrell

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     • vashbear

     @vashbear
     I share this frustrations. Harris’s job is to find an avenue for speaking as much of the truth of the genocide as she can while not costing herself the chance to do something about it. She had spoken quite forcefully about the situation in the past (https://hachyderm.io/@inthehands/112855326366406933) and I hope she finds a way at the DNC. But I also understand the tradeoffs she faces trying to embed that in what is fundamentally a giant infomercial.

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 04:56:37 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     • Donald Ball

     @donaldball
     Part of what leftists like about folks like Bernie and AOC and Omar (my rep!) is their solidly left-leaning constituencies mean that they can simultaneously be politicians at home while being activists on the House/Senate floor. And I do really appreciate them speaking my truths into the congressional record! But we need to recognize that being national activists the way they are is simply not a choice available with every congressional constituency.

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     Donald Ball (donaldball@triangletoot.party)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 04:56:38 JST Donald Ball

     in reply to

     @inthehands Some years back, I recall Sanders getting some guff online from some leftists about being friendly with McCain at some event or another and it’s like, my dudes, literally that is part of his job. It’s awful and exhausting and probably mostly pointless and he has to try anyway — in democratic politics, you win when you get a voting majority for your thing. Of course you have to lobby folks you don’t like, find common ground with them!

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 05:00:03 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     • Paul_IPv6

     @paul_ipv6
     Yeah, I often compare activism to R&D.

     A mistake we often make speaking to politicians is imagining we understand where consensus lies better than they do. Occasionally we do, but rarely. This is their job. If they’ve survived in it long, they’re probably good at it. We live in bubbles; they hear the whole cross-section.

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     Paul_IPv6 (paul_ipv6@infosec.exchange)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 05:00:04 JST Paul_IPv6

     in reply to

     @inthehands

     "It thus follows that politicians and political parties are •lagging• indicators of change."

     i think that's a crucial part of understanding where politicians are in the process of substantive, systemic change.

     they are the original "no one ever got fired for buying X" folks.

     you're right that politicians don't build consensus. they don't even lobby hard for it. they concede to consensus when they believe it's consensus.

     the reason they need a story is to understand how what they're trying to do matches that consensus opinion.

     politicians are sales folks as much as they are legislators.

     what you call activists are the startups, the market disruptors, the visionaries.

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 05:01:19 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     • Jessamyn

     @jessamyn
     I don’t think I truly understood all of what I wrote above until I’d had a taste of being in both roles (not in electoral politics, but within companies / orgs). Another crucial one I didn’t work into the thread is “diplomat.”

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     Jessamyn (jessamyn@glammr.us)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 05:01:20 JST Jessamyn

     in reply to

     @inthehands This is a really important distinction that it would be helpful if more people understood and you've done a great job outlining it. I am someone who is sometimes activist and sometimes politician and am slightly disappointed that more people don't seem to understand the jobs and wind up indignant about whatever it is that I am doing.

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 05:13:30 JST Paul Cantrell

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     • Jessamyn

     @jessamyn
     Uff da, as the Minnesotans say. What a miserable situation.

     That seems like a situation where the lawyer is exercising power at the expense of diplomacy: to the extent that she can threaten you or the town with real harm, the threats are effective; to the extent that she needs city gov’s consensus and understanding, she’s self-sabotaging.

     Here’s hoping you and the town make it through that process intact.

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     Jessamyn (jessamyn@glammr.us)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 05:13:31 JST Jessamyn

     in reply to

     @inthehands I've been considering this a lot more recently b/c we're doing tax appeal hearings after a town wide reappraisal. I chair a board that oversees these. The biggest taxpayer (community health center) grieved their appraisal (which is their right) & brought a lawyer. She showed up, acted all lawyerly and was downright rude. She was getting paid, I was a civic volunteer. People need to understand the power dynamics of the people they are interacting with in order to understand the system

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 05:18:15 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     • mneme

     @mneme
     Yes, a continuum. One thing that’s important to appreciate is that when somebody occupies both roles or slides between them, when a politician can also be an activist, that is •situational• and not solely a matter of personal integrity, e.g.: https://hachyderm.io/@inthehands/113007433707353356

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     mneme (mneme@dice.camp)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 05:18:16 JST mneme

     in reply to

     @inthehands Great stuff! It quantitizes what's technically much more fuzzy--a politician can and will engage in activisim; the best activism takes political realities to some degree into account (and in fact the DNC protests do hit that somewhat given that many of the protestors are also deligates--a political role), so much of this is technically on a continuum.

     But the heart of it is that wielding real democratic power constrains your actions and not doing so to an extent leaves you freer.

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 05:22:13 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     • jz.tusk

     Here's a great example of the activist-politician handoff in action, from @jztusk:
     https://mastodon.social/@jztusk/113007506440716149

     (Yes, Obama didn’t directly enact marriage equality, but his executive choices such as extending federal employee benefits to same-sex partners in 2010, plus his public change to supporting same-sex marriage, all helped set up Obergefell.)

     Was Obama lying before? or after? Or did he truly change his mind? …Does it make a difference? Not to the result!

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     JackieM (jackiemauro@fosstodon.org)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 05:53:27 JST JackieM

     in reply to

     @inthehands I listened to a really interesting interview with sen. Butler who went from activist to politician in a really sudden way. And she spoke about how more close relationships between the two would be more efficient, pointing to MLK and LBJ.

     Def worth a listen.

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 23-Aug-2024 05:53:27 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     • JackieM

     @Jackiemauro
     Sounds really interesting. The MLK/LBJ relationship is an extreme and classic example!

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     jonathanpeterson (jonathanpeterson@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 24-Aug-2024 02:48:39 JST jonathanpeterson

     in reply to

     • Donald Ball

     @inthehands @donaldball I couldn't have been more proud of John Lewis as my congressman. He was a loud and persuasive voice against war - from his application as a conscientious objector to Vietnam in 1961 (it took 3 years for him to become the first black CO in the state of Alabama) through the end of his life. But it was his base in Atlanta that made that activism possible.

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 24-Aug-2024 03:11:04 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     • jonathanpeterson
     • Donald Ball

     @jonathanpeterson @donaldball
     John Lewis really was something else.

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     Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 12-Sep-2024 09:31:17 JST Paul Cantrell

     in reply to

     • Jessamyn

     @jessamyn
     Nice. Sounds like you made it through in one piece, and maybe even some learning occurred on her part! Maybe.

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     Jessamyn (jessamyn@glammr.us)'s status on Thursday, 12-Sep-2024 09:31:19 JST Jessamyn

     in reply to

     @inthehands We finished this hearing today and I was very proud of me that when she said "I don't mean to be disrespectful but..." and then said something disrespectful I interrupted to say "Yeah that was really kind of disrespectful" and she walked it back.

     (also we wound up not agreeing with "her side's" appraisal but not because they were rude!)

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     Jessamyn (jessamyn@glammr.us)'s status on Thursday, 12-Sep-2024 09:31:20 JST Jessamyn

     in reply to

     @inthehands Thank you, I think we will, but the next hearing we're all in I will take more care to remind her that we're all working on the same result (a fair price) and she is paid while we are not and she should be mindful of that. The worst possible outcome is that they grieve it to the state and then I *think* it's out of our hands and not actually worse for the town. We're just all trying, cooperatively, to keep the state's lawyers out of it because it costs the state money.