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   Eugen Rochko (gargron@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 16-Dec-2023 08:57:01 JST Eugen Rochko

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   @tay This is already answered in the post. Server-level and personal domain blocks behave the exactly same way when it comes to fetching and delivering content.

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 01:21:19 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay That's always possible as soon as you post on a public social network. No user or instance blocing can prevent this.

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 01:34:37 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay

     According to https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/moderating/#block your content is hidden from other users, but only if you are on the same server. If this is the case this seems to be a major weekness to me.

     Nevertheless, while directly sharing is easier, others can always post screenshots, so you can never avoid others talking about you without your knowledge.

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 01:41:44 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay

     Well, either @Gargron is correct, then instance level blocking by the admin for all users aka defederation has no benefit over personal instance based blocking aka domain blocking.

     If @Gargron is wrong then this seems to be a bug which should be fixed.

     Personally I have no experience with blocking, since I didn't block anyone.

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 01:48:07 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay

     His explanation was no judgement about merits, just technical facts.

     (Of course he may err or there may be bugs which should be fixed.)

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 01:55:38 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay

     I didn't test it myself, but my understanding is that content is never shared indirectly, but always fetched from the original instance. And therefore I understand @Gargron in that way that any user on an instance you have blocked personally cannot see or interact with any content of you, it never gets to that server, even if it was shared indirectly (and of course as long as it's not a screenshot).

     If this is not the case, it seems a bug to me which should be reported.

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 01:58:12 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay

     Well, if a momentum is caused because people have formed their opinions based on misinformation, then the problem is how that momentum could built up, not the person pointing out technical facts.

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 02:11:44 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay

     I'm quite sure that he is very well aware of the significance of his words. But I don't see how pointing out technical facts can be wrong. In contrary, I think it's very important, especially in a charged atmosphere which is mainly driven by emotions (and sadly often technical misunderstandings).

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 02:22:10 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay

     In any case, I think that if I personally block a domain this should have the same result for me as admin based instance blocking. Either this is already the case (and this is my understanding of @Gargron), or not, and then it should be fixed.

     All this #fedipact and #defederation seems more an emotional and idiological discussion to me. Absolutely fine, and I see where people are coming from. As long as it's based on technical facts, not misinformation.

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 02:33:48 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay

     Yes, some comments of some people sound like it's not the case. But is it only a second hand rumor, or is there solid evidence for that? Did somebody really look into that?

     Especially because the situation seems to be so charged, solid information would be much preferable.

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 02:40:35 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay Do you have a specific primary source at hand?

     Tokyo Outsider (337ppm) repeated this.
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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 02:58:48 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay

     Looking around in https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues a little bit:

     It seems that there has been a bug that blocked domain appeared from account feed, but which was fixed three month ago. https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/pull/26823

     I also found https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/28397 that user domain blocks do not prevent viewing updated profile information, which is not fixed yet.

     I didn't look deep, but didn't notice any known issues suggesting fundamental flaws in blocking.

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 03:18:13 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay

     Hm, my understanding of #activitypub is that the user on the blocked instance should not have been able to see that boosted post, because the blocked server would have gotten the post not from the boosting on the non-blocked instance, but is always trying to fetch each post from the original instance without need of propagating blocks.

     But I don't know details of #activitypub, I may be wrong.

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 03:22:13 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay

     Well, if posts are always fetched from the original source which can check blocking, then network level blocking would have no advantage over a user blocking a domain.

     If however servers spread posts without checking the original server, then network level blocking would not help either, because a non-#threads-server could spread anything to anywhere.

     In summary, @Gargron explanation that these kinds of blocks are equivalent seems plausible to me.

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 03:29:21 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay

     Maybe cached from a time before the block?
     This would mean that content you created before your block could be still in the wild, but your new content not.

     But also here, there would be no difference between admin blocks versus users blocking a domain.

     In any case, it seems both of us have no solid information, and @Gargron for sure knows better, ar least than me. So as long as I don't have other information I trust that his infos are correct.

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 12:09:08 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay

     Doesn't authorized fetch affect personal server blocks in the same way as admin server blocks?

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     Pieselpriemel (pieselpriemel@mastodon.de)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 12:13:52 JST Pieselpriemel

     in reply to

     • Folker
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     @folkerschamel @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay
     https://hub.sunny.garden/2023/06/28/what-does-authorized_fetch-actually-do/

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 17:24:06 JST Folker

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     • Pieselpriemel

     @tokyo_0 @pieselpriemel @Gargron @tay

     This seems to support @Gargron explanation that admin level domain blocks and user level domain blocks are equivalent, right?
     The section about "User Level Domain Blocks" says that "Blocks placed this way are affected by Authorized Fetch in the same way as server level suspensions described above."

     It seems to me that there is an active hunt for finding a reason to justify admin level domain blocks.

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 17:25:09 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay
     Of course not, but an admin can enable authorized fetch without blocking an instance.

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 17:38:16 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @pieselpriemel @Gargron @tay

     So far I have only heard about rumors without first hand information.

     And I saw more solid arguments about post which you would expect to be not visible ending up being visible because of caching, but I don't see how this would be different for admin versus user level domain blocks, or in conjuction with authorized fetch network level blocks.

     I have seen many claims that @Gargron isn't accurate, but I don't remember supporting explanations yet.

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 17:38:38 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay Which earlier writing are you referring to?

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 17:43:10 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay

     What do you mean? In this post I don't say that regular users can enable authorized fetch.

     It seems we are moving away from a serious technical discussion ...

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 17:49:17 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay

     That's a direct untruth. He says that server-level and personal domain blocks behave the exactly same way when it comes to fetching and delivering content.

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 18:18:44 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay

     You have to ask him, but I think because many people erroneously think that admin level domain blocks can do something user level domain block cannot do, and he wanted to clarify technical facts.

     My impression is that this technical misconception is mainly spreading in the #fedipact crowd for justifying an ideologically motivated defederation.

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 18:28:24 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay

     Yea, but these "significant considerations" should be based on solid technical information and not just rumors or even misinformation about how things work.

     I am full with @Gargron on clarifying technical misconceptions.

     That was the reason for @Gargron follow-up in the first place.

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 18:50:20 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay

     Well, the post @Gargron was responding to was a perfect example of a #threads related fear based on a technical misconception. @Gargron cleared that up.

     Overall, watching these discussions, my impression is that a more solid technical foundation would be very useful.

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 19:34:34 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay

     https://mastodon.social/@Gargron/111587138177854666

     was a direct response to

     https://mastodon.social/@tay@tech.lgbt/111587119614469394

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 19:49:40 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay

     Well, this post https://tech.lgbt/@tay/111587118907388940 was literally worried specifically about #threads "which is the problem most have with the whole situation. we don't want our data fed into the Meta hellscape machinery".

     And @Gargron was answering with a technical clarification that this is not the case with user level domain blocks.

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     Folker (folkerschamel@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 17-Dec-2023 21:00:05 JST Folker

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     @tokyo_0 @Gargron @tay

     No, in contrary, @Gargron clarified that also using user level domain blocks "stops your posts from being delivered to or fetched by Threads", which obviously prevents "#threads users to see and interact with your content".

     (Of course not protecting against screenshots, data cached before you blocked, or not using authorized fetch.)

     That's exactly a perfect sample for the importance of basing all these #threads, #meta, and #fediblock discussion on technical reality.