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   Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 07:27:21 JST Sexy Moon
   what would a "good" browser tech stack look like?
   
   replace JavaScript with Scheme, for sure. Separation of presentation and content is kind of pointless since the Web is an application delivery platform now. What would replace styling? What kind of markup?
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     on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ (lain@lain.com)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 07:30:12 JST on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

     in reply to
     @Moon honestly its alright as it is
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 07:31:33 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ
     @lain I am ever so slightly sensitive to the argument that it does so much stuff that it no longer can be independently implemented by any but a few megacorporations
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     ロミンちゃん (romin@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 07:37:58 JST ロミンちゃん

     in reply to

     • on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ
     @Moon @lain
     >it no longer can be independently implemented by any but a few megacorporations
     Well, are they wrong? The spec is unmanageable.
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     Jezza™@threads.com (Official) (jeremiah@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 07:38:11 JST Jezza™@threads.com (Official)

     in reply to

     @Moon What should it be? What do you imagine it will be doing?

     i don't think separating data and style are wrong, but the purpose was never properly achieved. The idea was to make the web somewhat easily machine / device readable independent of style (consider Reader Mode in FF, or a braille reader.)

     This didn't really end up coming to pass because most people building the web either don't care, but also, the web isn't "documents" as much as varying types of applications and "content" in DBs.

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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 07:38:11 JST Sexy Moon

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     • Jezza™@threads.com (Official)
     @jeremiah my assumption is that the "new" thing is explicitly a fat client application delivery system
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 07:38:51 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ
     • ロミンちゃん
     @romin @lain I think it's true
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     narcolepsy and alcoholism :flag: (hj@shigusegubu.club)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 07:42:32 JST narcolepsy and alcoholism :flag:

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     • on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ
     @Moon @lain browsers can do a lot but it's not like everything needs WebUSB or WebGPU, plus Linux exists, same could happen to browser space.
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 07:43:46 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ
     • narcolepsy and alcoholism :flag:
     @hj @lain yeah I am thinking mainly application delivery not full desktop replacement.
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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 07:44:05 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     @Moon@shitposter.club According to some people the perfect browser already exists and it is called Emacs.

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     Jezza™@threads.com (Official) (jeremiah@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 07:45:54 JST Jezza™@threads.com (Official)

     in reply to

     @Moon then we have drafts of that in Java, or something like Squeak or image-container management?

     The "web" part, from my perspective, is everything between the purpose (presentation) and provision (servers.)

     Distributing fat clients: what becomes of the document thing? Is a word processor / old school browser a tool distributed with the document content in your scheme?

     The problem we keep hitting is that a neutral platform is built on the lowest common denominators.

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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 07:45:54 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • Jezza™@threads.com (Official)
     @jeremiah "pure" document delivery should be a defined subset of the new platform, so that each don't have to compromise the other.
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 07:47:46 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • Jezza™@threads.com (Official)
     @jeremiah you can embed documents in delivered applications but not vice-versa. documents must be pure documents. they can have device-specific styling but it cannot be turing-complete.
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     Jezza™@threads.com (Official) (jeremiah@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 07:47:47 JST Jezza™@threads.com (Official)

     in reply to

     @Moon what about recursive embedding? Can I embed containers/presentations in documents? Can I do the reverse without writing a browser or throwing one in?

     What does this scheme expect from the host system -- min specs?

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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 07:49:10 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • Terry Hendrix II 🏹
     • Jezza™@threads.com (Official)
     @thendrix @jeremiah PS is probably too difficult but I am open to argumentation on it.
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     Terry Hendrix II 🏹 (thendrix@social.hendrixgames.com)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 07:49:12 JST Terry Hendrix II 🏹

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     • Jezza™@threads.com (Official)

     What about RTF and PS?

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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 07:53:58 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • Terry Hendrix II 🏹
     • Jezza™@threads.com (Official)
     @jeremiah @thendrix well like NeXT used Postscript as its render engine so you could use it for the application rendering, I just think it might be too difficult for the average programmer for adoption. I could be completely wrong.
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     Jezza™@threads.com (Official) (jeremiah@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 07:53:59 JST Jezza™@threads.com (Official)

     in reply to

     • Terry Hendrix II 🏹

     @Moon @thendrix PS as a plugin component, or hand-off by MIME types as presently done ./?

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     Jezza™@threads.com (Official) (jeremiah@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 07:56:33 JST Jezza™@threads.com (Official)

     in reply to

     • Terry Hendrix II 🏹

     @Moon @thendrix or maybe by making it just a little bit harder than The Web, you eliminate a lot of retards and improve the code ecosystem by raising the bar.

     At least until NeoWIX or whatever is invented.

     Sexy Moon likes this.
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 08:05:52 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • Nyatalily
     @nyatalily there is some. benefit to having just one language to learn but this is an interesting idea and I don't reject it.
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     Nyatalily (nyatalily@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 08:06:03 JST Nyatalily

     in reply to
     @Moon Just on the scripting side, can we just not lock it down to one language? It sucks, has sucked and will continue to suck. Something like WebASM but first-class (instead of requiring JS interop) is ideal.
     Sexy Moon likes this.
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 08:08:16 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • Nyatalily
     @nyatalily I am warming up to this idea.
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 08:11:32 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to
     this thread is super fun to explore.
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     Alex Gleason (alex@gleasonator.com)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 08:15:38 JST Alex Gleason

     in reply to

     • on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ
     • ロミンちゃん
     @Moon @romin @lain Deno did it. Bun also to a lesser extent.
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     rheaplex (rheaplex@social.xenofem.me)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 08:35:00 JST rheaplex

     in reply to

     • Terry Hendrix II 🏹
     • Jezza™@threads.com (Official)
     @Moon @jeremiah @thendrix counterpoint: ps is awesome.
     Sexy Moon likes this.
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     rheaplex (rheaplex@social.xenofem.me)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 08:35:04 JST rheaplex

     in reply to

     • Terry Hendrix II 🏹
     • Jezza™@threads.com (Official)
     @Moon @jeremiah @thendrix it’s astonishing what the average developer will find easy if there’s a market for it.
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     :gnu:+bonifartius 𒂼𒄄 (bonifartius@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 08:35:17 JST :gnu:+bonifartius 𒂼𒄄

     in reply to

     @Moon i think it would be interesting to keep the http distribution mechanism. for applications just do away with all the html/css/js legacy. just provide a sandboxed VM with "devices". like already with WASM but without the legacy stuff. then just compile things with this VM as target.

     ideally rendering classic pages should be a program for this VM.

     one might say that it's too opaque, but the minified JS and crazy generated HTML&CSS of today is also not readable anymore.

     guess this idea is a bit like envisioned by inferno or java, only using webshit ;)

     Sexy Moon likes this.
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 08:38:27 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • on-lain ✔ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ
     • Alex Gleason
     • ロミンちゃん
     @alex @lain @romin usually they mean like CSS and DOM stuff in addition to JS I think.
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 08:40:05 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • Account: Computers
     • Jezza™@threads.com (Official)
     @pro @jeremiah I think implicit in the idea is that it should be some kind of higher-level framework that adapts to different display dimensions and keyboard/touchscreen etc.
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     Account: Computers (pro@mu.zaitcev.nu)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 08:40:09 JST Account: Computers

     in reply to

     • Jezza™@threads.com (Official)
     @Moon @jeremiah In that case you don't need a browser at all. Just make Java good or something, and download apps outright. The OS should provide windows or other UI, security, sandbox. Why even bother with presentation?
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     Jezza™@threads.com (Official) (jeremiah@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 08:41:51 JST Jezza™@threads.com (Official)

     in reply to

     • Account: Computers

     @pro @Moon that's probably part of the discussion: where does this system begin or end?

     At the point of "download apps outright" we're basically talking about the app stores we already have now packaging containerized apps.

     QT is already a cross-platform graphical standard that runs on everything you might realistically use -- so container-image manager, cross-platform standards for interaction/output...

     But what about shared data? Intertask comms? All the security fun stuff? Fake UX stuff?

     Sexy Moon likes this.
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 08:43:11 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • Account: Computers
     • Jezza™@threads.com (Official)
     @jeremiah @pro I am really digging the idea of a scheme language and the markup is in sexps but the markup isn't html tags and has a strict formal definition that can be validated
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     rheaplex (rheaplex@social.xenofem.me)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 08:45:16 JST rheaplex

     in reply to

     • Account: Computers
     • Jezza™@threads.com (Official)
     @Moon @pro @jeremiah at a housemeer in the mid-90s a very excited hacker bemoaned to me the fact that the web hadn’t used LaTeX…
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      (mint@ryona.agency)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 12:00:35 JST 

     in reply to

     • teknomunk
     • Nyatalily
     @teknomunk @nyatalily @Moon I believe WASM still can't do DOM manipulation or XHR by itself.
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     teknomunk (teknomunk@apogee.polaris-1.work)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 12:00:36 JST teknomunk

     in reply to

     • Nyatalily
     @nyatalily @Moon
     
     I've had this thought as well, and with a well-designed WASM-browser API I think it would be possible to jettison the majority of the browser bloat, all of html, javascript and css and have the site just render things directly.
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 12:01:05 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • 
     • teknomunk
     • Nyatalily
     @mint @teknomunk @nyatalily it cannot
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     Sir Nedwood - Sydney 🇦🇺 (ned@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 12:28:52 JST Sir Nedwood - Sydney 🇦🇺

     in reply to

     • Jezza™@threads.com (Official)

     @Moon @jeremiah browsing around this thread as a layman, it sounds like what you are describing is similar to the Android development environment.

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     Sir Nedwood - Sydney 🇦🇺 (ned@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 12:43:22 JST Sir Nedwood - Sydney 🇦🇺

     • Jezza™@threads.com (Official)

     @jeremiah @Moon You can just copy the syntax and write it in C.

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     Sir Funk ?? (sophistifunk@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 12:45:45 JST Sir Funk ??

     • Jezza™@threads.com (Official)
     • Sir Nedwood - Sydney 🇦🇺

     @jeremiah @ned @Moon ugh. Code vegans.