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1. Embed this notice
   Charlie Stross (cstross@wandering.shop)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 20:22:17 JST Charlie Stross

   in reply to

   • danjac

   @danjac Containerization cut the cost of international freight shipping by 98-99% in the 1970s-80s. Hence it made global economies of scale possible in many centralized industries. Shipping the raw materials to lots of local factories is going to end up more expensive. You can in principle run container ships by burning synthetic fuels manufactured using renewable energy inputs, but those cost a lot more than the fossil stuff.

   • Embed this notice
     danjac (danjac@masto.ai)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 20:22:18 JST danjac

     in reply to

     @cstross fusion is the only way big container ships make any economic and environmental sense in a post-fossil economy. Otherwise why not just make more stuff locally and just ship the raw materials you absolutely need?

   • Embed this notice
     Charlie Stross (cstross@wandering.shop)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 20:22:19 JST Charlie Stross

     Why we [might] need fusion power:

     a) Shipping. Big container ships *can't* be sail-powered (the largest sailing ships ever are about 1% of the size we'd need). But existing marine nuclear power is a proliferation and/or meltdown risk. If we can make a small fusion reactor, we could make our existing global supply chains carbon-neutral.

     b) Continuous industrial processes that can't survive a power glitch, much less nighttime on a windless night (no renewables). There are a lot of those.

     /1

   • Embed this notice
     Alisdair Calder McGregor (a_c_mcgregor@topspicy.social)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 20:26:20 JST Alisdair Calder McGregor

     • goatsarah
     • danjac

     @goatsarah @cstross @danjac Container tops are just standardised fittings, so you'd just bolt a prefab solar panel to the top of each stack

   • Embed this notice
     Richard Gadsden (po8crg@wandering.shop)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 20:29:59 JST Richard Gadsden

     • goatsarah
     • danjac

     @goatsarah @cstross @danjac If you can fix some political issues (you have to go through either Russia or Iran), you could roughly halve the need for large container ships by building a high-capacity highly-automated electric freight line across Eurasia.

     The back of my envelope says that five tracks in each direction between China (and the rest of East/SE Asia) and Europe would replace the entire container shipping traffic between the two, which is approx half of the world's container shipping.

   • Embed this notice
     Colman Reilly (colman@mastodon.ie)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 20:38:06 JST Colman Reilly

     • goatsarah
     • danjac

     @goatsarah @cstross @danjac I suspect you’ll find you’re several orders of magnitude short. They might be the rare case where hydrogen makes some sort of sense.

   • Embed this notice
     Charlie Stross (cstross@wandering.shop)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 21:07:14 JST Charlie Stross

     • goatsarah
     • danjac

     @goatsarah @danjac Just noting that a current max-size container ship is typically driven by a 70MW diesel plant.

     A domestic PV panel maxes out around 350W and covers 1.5 m^2. So you'd need an absolute minimum of 300,000 m^2 to drive the ship.

     A Suezmax tanker maxes out at 77 metres wide and 400 metres long, so is just large enough (deadweight: 160,000 tons).

     But that's at ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM sunlight.

     Verdict: stem-to-stern PV panels would help but they're not a solution on their own.

   • Embed this notice
     Wilfried Klaebe (wonka@chaos.social)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 21:19:04 JST Wilfried Klaebe

     in reply to

     • goatsarah
     • danjac

     @cstross Also, they would need to slide aside in port to facilitate access to the containers.
     @goatsarah @danjac

   • Embed this notice
     Charlie Stross (cstross@wandering.shop)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 21:24:41 JST Charlie Stross

     in reply to

     • SuperMoosie
     • Sinner BOFH

     @Sinner @SuperMoosie There are virtually no heat pumps where I live (central Edinburgh): the commonest housing style is multi-dwelling buildings, so they’d need air-source heat pumps. Add being a UNESCO World Heritage Site where we aren't even allowed to fit double-glazing or satellite TV dishes because they’d spoil the exterior appearance of the building, and, well, heat pumps are a non-starter (without significant legislative changes).

   • Embed this notice
     Sinner BOFH (sinner@mastodon.bofhers.es)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 21:24:51 JST Sinner BOFH

     in reply to

     • SuperMoosie

     @cstross @SuperMoosie are there many Heat Pumps that far north? Does any of your neighbors have a heat pump? Are they happy with it? Are they saving energy/money?

   • Embed this notice
     Charlie Stross (cstross@wandering.shop)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 21:24:52 JST Charlie Stross

     in reply to

     • SuperMoosie

     @SuperMoosie Solar PV is *not* more efficient when you're 55 degrees north and get less than 6 hours of daylight out of 24 hours in winter (and the sun never gets more than 12 degrees above the horizon). Hint: that's where I live.

   • Embed this notice
     Charlie Stross (cstross@wandering.shop)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 21:24:53 JST Charlie Stross

     in reply to

     c) Cold winter nights in the far north. Most folks think solar power is great—it peaks during daytime in summer, when you want air conditioning! But that's less useful if you need heat to avoid freezing on a winter night.

     d) Space travel beyond roughly Jupiter orbit (not much sunlight that far out).

     e) Speculatively: fusion reactors as a controlled source of neutrons for destroying existing radioactive waste stockpiles through transmutation.

     Of these, (a) and (b) are critical.

     /end

   • Embed this notice
     SuperMoosie (supermoosie@mastodon.au)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 21:24:53 JST SuperMoosie

     in reply to

     @cstross

     Solar pv is more efficient when cold.

   • Embed this notice
     Nicovel0 (nicovel0@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 21:33:26 JST Nicovel0

     • goatsarah
     • danjac

     @goatsarah @cstross @danjac also electric motors are much more efficient than diesel, so you might not need the full 70MW either.

   • Embed this notice
     Charlie Stross (cstross@wandering.shop)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 21:47:39 JST Charlie Stross

     • goatsarah
     • Wilfried Klaebe
     • danjac

     @goatsarah @wonka @danjac Look at the new thin-film PV panels on the ISS; they're about as thin and light as printer paper per unit area and come on a roll. Price is dropping rapidly, too. (The space-rated ones came first and were specced years before they were launched. It's now getting cheap enough that PV sails on sailing boats are looking plausible.)

   • Embed this notice
     Wilfried Klaebe (wonka@chaos.social)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 21:51:38 JST Wilfried Klaebe

     in reply to

     • goatsarah
     • danjac
     • Alisdair Calder McGregor

     @A_C_McGregor So those would need to be removed in port from every single stack first, which takes extra time. Safely disconnecting them electrically takes even more time. Time is at a premium...
     I think time will tell if switching to ICEs burning NH3 instead of hydrocarbons is cheaper.
     @cstross @goatsarah @danjac

   • Embed this notice
     Alisdair Calder McGregor (a_c_mcgregor@topspicy.social)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 21:51:39 JST Alisdair Calder McGregor

     in reply to

     • goatsarah
     • Wilfried Klaebe
     • danjac

     @wonka @cstross @goatsarah @danjac you'd just bolt individual units to the top of each container stack; containers are *designed* to have shit bolted atop like that

   • Embed this notice
     Wilfried Klaebe (wonka@chaos.social)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 21:55:48 JST Wilfried Klaebe

     in reply to

     • goatsarah
     • danjac

     @cstross How's their efficiency? How will they be wired up, on top of that stack of containers? What happens with them during strong winds on the open sea?
     @goatsarah @danjac

   • Embed this notice
     Charlie Stross (cstross@wandering.shop)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 21:59:38 JST Charlie Stross

     • goatsarah
     • SuperMoosie
     • Sinner BOFH

     @goatsarah @SuperMoosie @Sinner AIUI the heat pump needs an external box on the side of the building. That would not get planning permission here.

   • Embed this notice
     Sinner BOFH (sinner@mastodon.bofhers.es)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 22:04:04 JST Sinner BOFH

     • goatsarah
     • SuperMoosie

     @cstross @SuperMoosie @goatsarah oh nice! Is it cost effective? How good is it in extreme cold/extreme heat?

   • Embed this notice
     Alisdair Calder McGregor (a_c_mcgregor@topspicy.social)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 22:07:36 JST Alisdair Calder McGregor

     in reply to

     • goatsarah
     • Wilfried Klaebe
     • danjac

     @cstross @goatsarah @wonka @danjac Your issue at sea is salt corrosion resistance though. You're probably going to want something more like a sealed unit

   • Embed this notice
     Wilfried Klaebe (wonka@chaos.social)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 22:11:08 JST Wilfried Klaebe

     • goatsarah
     • danjac

     @goatsarah Container batteries are already reality, 50MWh per 20 foot container: https://maritime-executive.com/article/china-launches-first-700-teu-electric-containership-for-yangtze-service @cstross @danjac

   • Embed this notice
     Charlie Stross (cstross@wandering.shop)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 22:15:18 JST Charlie Stross

     • goatsarah
     • danjac
     • Nicovel0

     @goatsarah @Nicovel0 @danjac As long as the cargo isn't perishable or time-critical, that's good. (I'm mainly worried about food distribution once we begin experiencing routine crop failures in different places at the same time. Cars and concrete can take their time, but you don't want the emergency food aid to be a month late!)

   • Embed this notice
     InsertUser (insertuser@en.osm.town)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 22:19:02 JST InsertUser

     in reply to

     • goatsarah
     • SuperMoosie
     • Sinner BOFH

     @cstross @goatsarah @SuperMoosie @Sinner I've seen houses with very long refrigerant lines for air conditioning. If it's a terraced house you might be able to disguise the cold side in a louvered shed down the garden. The actual visible change to the house would only be one or two small holes possibly below grade. Could that get approval?

   • Embed this notice
     Charlie Stross (cstross@wandering.shop)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 22:22:58 JST Charlie Stross

     • goatsarah
     • SuperMoosie
     • Sinner BOFH

     @goatsarah @SuperMoosie @Sinner I'll look into it. Not for this year, though.

   • Embed this notice
     Wilfried Klaebe (wonka@chaos.social)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 22:27:06 JST Wilfried Klaebe

     • goatsarah
     • danjac
     • Alisdair Calder McGregor

     @goatsarah Time at sea is cheap, yes, but time in port, blocking a berth? HHLA Quay Tariff says 1€/GT for the first 24h, and 0.65€/GT for every further 12h. How long would it take to uninstall and reinstall the panels?
     @cstross @A_C_McGregor @danjac

   • Embed this notice
     Eddie Cochrane (cobrabay@mstdn.social)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 22:30:35 JST Eddie Cochrane

     • goatsarah
     • SuperMoosie
     • Sinner BOFH

     @goatsarah @cstross @SuperMoosie @Sinner that integrated heat pump cylinder looks really interesting. We're buying a new home and that looks like a possible option for us.

   • Embed this notice
     Wilfried Klaebe (wonka@chaos.social)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 22:34:33 JST Wilfried Klaebe

     • goatsarah
     • danjac

     @goatsarah Should there be cables dangling down from the top of a stack of containers, possibly in strong wind conditions? Does "marine grade" include that?
     Also, we're not talking about providing power to a cooler container, but a little more juice, which should take thicker cables, ... We're getting into new extremes in several fields there.
     @cstross @danjac

   • Embed this notice
     Charlie Stross (cstross@wandering.shop)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 22:46:55 JST Charlie Stross

     in reply to

     • goatsarah
     • InsertUser
     • SuperMoosie
     • Sinner BOFH

     @InsertUser @goatsarah @SuperMoosie @Sinner It's not a terrace house. It's on the fifth floor of a Georgian tenement built in 1820. There is no available garden.

   • Embed this notice
     InsertUser (insertuser@en.osm.town)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 22:46:55 JST InsertUser

     in reply to

     • goatsarah
     • SuperMoosie
     • Sinner BOFH

     @cstross @goatsarah @SuperMoosie @Sinner OK that's way harder. I doubt you can get the required airflow through disused chimneys.

   • Embed this notice
     Charlie Stross (cstross@wandering.shop)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 22:50:19 JST Charlie Stross

     • goatsarah
     • SuperMoosie
     • Sinner BOFH

     @goatsarah @SuperMoosie @Sinner Yes, I have a water cylinder in a location that'd be suitable. Problem is, I see no sign that this can run a central heating system as well as a hot water tank …?

   • Embed this notice
     InsertUser (insertuser@en.osm.town)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 22:53:59 JST InsertUser

     • goatsarah
     • SuperMoosie
     • Sinner BOFH

     @goatsarah @cstross @SuperMoosie @Sinner hear pump water heaters work by cooling the air of the room they're in. That's no good for heating a building.

   • Embed this notice
     Simon Waldman (swaldman@mendeddrum.org)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 23:07:29 JST Simon Waldman

     • goatsarah
     • danjac
     • Nicovel0

     @goatsarah @cstross @Nicovel0 @danjac

     It's not about the scale, but about the usage: long-distance shipping works v differently to smaller craft on shorter trips because they need constant power output for days or weeks. That means a hybrid system is mostly pointless (unlike eg ferries, which maneouvre a lot).

     Personally I suspect that this will be all the things mentioned in thread - slow steaming, wind assist, maybe PV, plus also renewables-based liquid fuel.

   • Embed this notice
     Wilfried Klaebe (wonka@chaos.social)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 23:08:58 JST Wilfried Klaebe

     • goatsarah
     • danjac

     @goatsarah Up to what height atop a stack of containers? (I seriously don't know.)
     @cstross @danjac

   • Embed this notice
     Sinner BOFH (sinner@mastodon.bofhers.es)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 23:13:03 JST Sinner BOFH

     • goatsarah
     • SuperMoosie

     @goatsarah @cstross @SuperMoosie Celsius or Fahrenheit? Numbers without units mean nothing

   • Embed this notice
     Wilfried Klaebe (wonka@chaos.social)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 23:23:31 JST Wilfried Klaebe

     • goatsarah
     • danjac

     @goatsarah Yes, one panel atop each stack of containers. The power collected there needs to go to the power bus, which will not be at the top of the stack of connectors, because there is nothing but containers, and containers do not universally have electric cabling.
     @cstross @danjac

   • Embed this notice
     Charlie Stross (cstross@wandering.shop)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 23:27:32 JST Charlie Stross

     in reply to

     • goatsarah
     • Wilfried Klaebe
     • danjac

     @wonka @goatsarah @danjac Think thin film PV roller shutters to cover the top level of containers. Permanently built into the superstructure. Roll up when in port to permit loading/unloading. Providing added weather protection for the cargo if they're done properly.

   • Embed this notice
     Wilfried Klaebe (wonka@chaos.social)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 23:27:33 JST Wilfried Klaebe

     in reply to

     • goatsarah
     • danjac

     @cstross The solar panel needs to go on the top, *and* connect to the power bus. That will likely need a cable hanging down from the panel to some socket it can plug into, the power bus will not go to the top of the container stacks.
     @goatsarah @danjac

   • Embed this notice
     Charlie Stross (cstross@wandering.shop)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 23:27:34 JST Charlie Stross

     in reply to

     • goatsarah
     • Wilfried Klaebe
     • danjac

     @wonka @goatsarah @danjac Logical solution: you try to layer the battery containers on the bottom. First in, last out.

   • Embed this notice
     Sinner BOFH (sinner@mastodon.bofhers.es)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 23:31:57 JST Sinner BOFH

     • goatsarah
     • SuperMoosie

     @cstross @SuperMoosie @goatsarah no need to use harsh language. I was truly and really confused by your answer. It’s easy and not confusing to write “35C” / “35° C” or “35F” / “35° F”, as unfortunately not everyone uses Celsius.

   • Embed this notice
     Nemo (iinavpov@mastodon.online)'s status on Monday, 07-Aug-2023 23:34:12 JST Nemo

     in reply to

     • goatsarah
     • SuperMoosie
     • Sinner BOFH

     @cstross
     In town, though, District heating using heat from incinerators is typically even better than heat pumps.
     @goatsarah @SuperMoosie @Sinner

   • Embed this notice
     InsertUser (insertuser@en.osm.town)'s status on Tuesday, 08-Aug-2023 01:58:46 JST InsertUser

     • goatsarah
     • SuperMoosie
     • Sinner BOFH

     @goatsarah @cstross @SuperMoosie @Sinner the hot water bill is insignificant compared to the heating of the building in winter.