Shiina
I don't know whether this has to do with the fact that I'm a learner of #English as a second #language, but for what it's worth:
English phrase/expression I like the best is probably:
"Live and let live."
I cannot find any nifty JP translation. It's not impossible to translate it but it has to come with lots of explanations.
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Shiina
This is because, I think, the #philosophical backing exists in the EN-speaking cultural/societal framework (namely, methinks, this direct relationship between an individual and god/higher being).
The worldview that form the backbone of JP-speaking world is more societally multi-contextual. (I'm not a sociologist so I'm winging this as I go along.) This is to say, one's existence is defined by where one sits in the societal (feudal) hierarchy.
Obviously this is simplifying a lot, but
/2
Shiina
Let's just say:
In order to translate "Live, and let live," I'd have to decide who is giving this command (this will not necessarily expressed in words, but JP is highly contextual and it lurks behind explicit words); need to explain who is being "let live" (humans in general? animals? someone you know? someone you encounter?); and after all that is done the translation is already too hefty and awkward and...totally loses the beauty of simplicity and efficiency in the original phrase.
/3
Shiina
The other phrase I like in English, btw, is "it comes with the territory" ?
For whatever reason I had never seen/heard this phrase until I came to New York. It's another phrase that I would have super hard time translating into Japanese and it won't be easy/smart/pretty. But the phrase makes intuitive or at least street-smarty sense. It took me a while to be able to use it, but I like it (and secretly chuckle when I do).
4/4
Yukari 丼Peerless☑️
@YoWatShiinaEsq see yeah… I dunno how to translate “it comes with the territory “ ?
Shiina
@carrideen ohh, interesting & fascinating!!
Someone I used to know once posited: "ppl say think before you speak, but sometimes you want to speak before you think (he quoted some philosopher I think??)"
I just blurted out what was on my mind & didn't expect traveling salesmen. And now I'm thinking: "oh I never read/seen Arthur Miller's play."
Conversation is like an improv dance. Love it (& I'm so glad I met you here? ?
Carrie Shanafelt
@YoWatShiinaEsq
It's derived from traveling salesmen, right? I don't know for sure but it sounds like it. Will see if I can find out... Edit: yes! Traveling salesmen would be limited to an area that presented unique challenges, so a good salesman had to figure out how to work with the limitations rather than complain about them.
Shiina
@carrideen ohh ok, noted re: B'way production. I should give it a read anyway b/c I don't always catch all of spoken words (this happens in JP too). Come to think of it, I never read Arthur Miller. (Not sure if I told you but I was an actor in the first 6 yrs of my existence in NYC. I loved campy comedy & mask work.)
Carrie Shanafelt
@YoWatShiinaEsq
Same! My favorite part of learning languages is when you find out there's some much more complicated reason than you imagined for why a phrase means what it does. If you get a chance, Death of a Salesman is on Broadway right now with Wendell Pierce in the lead! I don't love that play, but this is the best imaginable production of it.
Shiina
@carrideen I haven't been to these kinds of theater for a long time! And lmk the next time you are performing!
Carrie Shanafelt
@YoWatShiinaEsq Oh how cool! What a great way to get to know the city! I used to act, but I wasn't very good at it. I loved singing in front of people though--have fronted three bands. Before the pandemic we went to a lot of off-Broadway stuff but Death of a Salesman was our first play back in theater. Our last before lockdown was María Irene Fornés's Drowning, as a mini-opera by Philip Glass--the "masks" in that are disturbing! https://www.maboumines.org/production/mud-drowning/
Shiina
@edcasabar Hi Ed, That's a very good point. Yes on that level -- i.e., a bit of liberal translation -- there may be a phrase related to #Zen koan type of thing. I can't really think of anything that really fits though.
It's interesting you mention #kintsugi. I do kintsugi--love it. I learned from Kunio Nakamura, who is also active in exploring new forms--e.g., matching mismatched pieces to create a new life.
Ed Casabar
Interesting thread. Rather than a direct translation to #japanese is there perhaps a Japanese phrase from #Zen Buddhism, Japanese haiku, or maybe even kintsugi cracked pottery that conveys a similar meaning? I'm thinking about the acceptance of imperfection; or the Buddhist concept of detachment since all things are impermanent.
I've been following Kanho Yakushiji, the Zen Buddhist monk who sings, and remembered his video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JdjqV5uSWY&list=PLP5yhOwwlcDsLM-z5lEZ9-kalkGPlzVFR&index=12
?? Bewickwren ??
@YoWatShiinaEsq
Is this because the concept is not well known or is there another reason?
Shiina
@Bewickwren Mainly because of the societal/cultural "backbone," so to speak (explained in my /2 toot). The concept of "live/living" does exist in JP of course & also that of "let" as in "allow." So you can do verbatim translation, but the connotation (i.e., you can have your own view/way and so can other ppl) gets lost. Unlike EN vis-a-vis other European languages, EN-JP difference is much wider, so conceptual spheres diverge more widely.
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