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1. Embed this notice
   ari :prideified: (ar@is-a.cat)'s status on Thursday, 10-Apr-2025 01:42:47 JST ari :prideified:

   • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:

   @49016 @sophie sadly, there's kinda no good/clearly superior alternatives.
   1) XMPP has too many e2ee methods, and no client supports all of the recent ones even;
   2) MUCs in XMPPs require keeping a connection active, which makes it not-better than irc;
   3) there are some IMs with good e2ee, like signal, but they require a phone number to use them, which is Not Great for some
   4) discord is borderline spyware, and i'd expect things to get worse as they're nearing IPO/after it
   5) IRC - to be usable at all - requires having an always-on computer somewhere, to act as a bouncer/proxy. And there's no e2ee standard that's actually adopted by a significant portion of clients.
   6) some of the IMs requiring a phone number like to tout how private/secure they are, when in reality they're not

   :blobcatshrug: the state of IMs is - generally - sad

   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Thursday, 10-Apr-2025 01:42:45 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     @ar @49016 @sophie :blobcatbongogoogly: delta chat
     
     because email is eternal
   • Embed this notice
     djsumdog (djsumdog@djsumdog.com)'s status on Thursday, 10-Apr-2025 01:45:24 JST djsumdog

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     There's also Matrix with its eternal protocol bloat, slow as crap reference server implementation (open source) and their fear advertising tactics to get governments and companies to buy their proprietary Rust server (while abandoning their Go implementation entirely)
   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Thursday, 10-Apr-2025 01:47:07 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     @ar @49016 @sophie they encrypt and scrub as much of that as they can iirc. you could layer on i2p between the servers if you wanted though.
   • Embed this notice
     ari :prideified: (ar@is-a.cat)'s status on Thursday, 10-Apr-2025 01:47:08 JST ari :prideified:

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:

     @icedquinn @49016 @sophie only reasonable if all of your contacts are on the same trusted mailserver. otherwise, email by itself leaves a lot of metadata.

   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Thursday, 10-Apr-2025 02:01:23 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     • 👺防空識別區👹
     @adiz @ar @49016 @sophie i dunno what the persistent connection for mucs means because stuff like MAM exists and xmpp servers have held on to message caches for years.
     
     this is probably me not understanding the assignment
   • Embed this notice
     👺防空識別區👹 (adiz@mtl.jinxian.casa)'s status on Thursday, 10-Apr-2025 02:01:25 JST 👺防空識別區👹

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:

     @icedquinn Tried Delta Chat. Interesting, but kinda clunky and too much latency to make group chats viable in my opinion. Also, seems like you'd need a dedicated email address solely for Delta Chat because otherwise every email you receive gets interpreted as a message (and every response gets sent as an email, of course).

     I very much like XMPP. It's my favorite of them all---and, I've used them all. Persistent connections for MUCs isn't a really big deal, and can become a non-issue with the right client/settings and server/MUC: https://intkos.link/pages/xmpp_muc_disappear_restart/

     Synapse was painful for me, all in terms of setup, maintenance, and performance. I had high hopes for Dendrite, but gave up on Matrix when they gave up on that reference deployment. Went all-in with XMPP. @ar @49016 @sophie

     pwm likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     pwm (pwm@darkdork.dev)'s status on Thursday, 10-Apr-2025 02:03:27 JST pwm

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     • 👺防空識別區👹
     @adiz @icedquinn @ar @49016 @sophie DC has no latency if your mail host is their chatmail distribution and not a regular IMAP/SMTP server. I use my regular IMAP/SMTP server for it because idgaf about latencies less than the imap poll interval when I'm not looking at my phone. So yeah you can use it with e.g. gmail but it's kinda a hack
   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Thursday, 10-Apr-2025 02:13:18 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     • Pawslut420
     • 👺防空識別區👹
     @sendpaws @ar @49016 @sophie @adiz i blame the poor state of xmpp on the death of the desktop programmer.
     
     the wire protocol is goofy at times, somewhat just the nature of extensible things, but the lack of desktop programmers really hurts computing hard.
     pwm likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Pawslut420 (sendpaws@mitra.pawslut.party)'s status on Thursday, 10-Apr-2025 02:13:20 JST Pawslut420

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     • 👺防空識別區👹

     @adiz @icedquinn @ar @49016 @sophie Just remember the moderation tip I mentioned when you get some schizophrenic spammer who keeps joining with new accounts every DAY to scream at you.

   • Embed this notice
     👺防空識別區👹 (adiz@mtl.jinxian.casa)'s status on Thursday, 10-Apr-2025 02:13:21 JST 👺防空識別區👹

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     • Pawslut420

     @sendpaws Well, Gajim works okay for me and I love the performance and light weight of XMPP, I'm just going to keep sticking with it. 🤷 @icedquinn @ar @49016 @sophie

   • Embed this notice
     Pawslut420 (sendpaws@mitra.pawslut.party)'s status on Thursday, 10-Apr-2025 02:13:22 JST Pawslut420

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     • 👺防空識別區👹

     @adiz @icedquinn @ar @49016 @sophie Like seriously, none of these options have help and if you click help you get sent to a developer wiki or something. Accidentally click members only and boom, you just kicked EVERYONE you didn't set as member in your MUC. Fun, right?

     So you go to the documentation for gajim only to find out gee, where's the docs? How was I supposed to know this? Meanwhile the spyware app that has the most obnoxious community has in depth rich documentation for every bit and piece of managing a "server".

     This is then followed by asking why everyone uses the spyware app? It's gotta be the Microsoft Industrial Complex powered by Steve Ballmer's WOOOOOOOs.

   • Embed this notice
     Pawslut420 (sendpaws@mitra.pawslut.party)'s status on Thursday, 10-Apr-2025 02:13:23 JST Pawslut420

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     • 👺防空識別區👹

     @adiz @icedquinn @ar @49016 @sophie my issue with xmpp is the clients are shit, and the documentation is a total joke.

     Especially with the weird terms used for gajim. Being in the chat isn't the same as being a member, in the xmpp land it's the same as getting a +v

   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Thursday, 10-Apr-2025 02:15:58 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     • Pawslut420
     • 👺防空識別區👹
     @sendpaws @ar @49016 @sophie @adiz i think zulip has a better idea with how threading and chat works but it almost certainly doesn't tick boxes related to the thread (zulip is more internal corpo chat)
   • Embed this notice
     Pawslut420 (sendpaws@mitra.pawslut.party)'s status on Thursday, 10-Apr-2025 02:15:59 JST Pawslut420

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     • 👺防空識別區👹

     @icedquinn @ar @49016 @sophie @adiz Conversations.im is even worse
     You can't do the most basic of basic moderation on there, what a mess.

     >i blame the poor state of xmpp on the death of the desktop programmer.

     That's because there's entire generations and countries getting into computers from fucking mobile devices.

   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Thursday, 10-Apr-2025 02:17:01 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     • Pawslut420
     • 👺防空識別區👹
     @sendpaws @49016 @adiz @ar @sophie i've only spoken to a few people who deployed it, but none of them regret it, and generally have very positive things to say about topic streams and moderation options (esp since moderators can change the subject field of stuff, so off-topicness kind of drifts to its own short lived sub-rooms, its not the 'room shutdown' ethos of irc/discord/et all)
   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Thursday, 10-Apr-2025 02:30:21 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     • Pawslut420
     • 👺防空識別區👹
     @sendpaws @ar @49016 @sophie @adiz its not discord its just the way rooms work. a room can't carry simultaneous discussions.
     
     slack and discord tried to solve this with "threads" but those are kind of stupidly done
     
     zulip does it by putting a subject tag on every message. messages belong to a room but they have a subject. if you click reply like a thread you inherit the subject. you can change the subject with new messages or with an edit.
     
     so conversations can topic drift organically and you can see that its there in the stream, but you can also opt out of that subject, so something dipping between uspol and parameter optimization just sort of slides around as-needed.
     
     i've never had the privilege of using it but people i spoke to says it works very wlel
   • Embed this notice
     Pawslut420 (sendpaws@mitra.pawslut.party)'s status on Thursday, 10-Apr-2025 02:30:22 JST Pawslut420

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     • 👺防空識別區👹

     @icedquinn @ar @49016 @sophie @adiz Yeah, Discord is a fucking shitshow for moderation.

     I've seen servers that died because of a moderator who shut down every discussion.

   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Thursday, 10-Apr-2025 02:31:28 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     • Pawslut420
     • 👺防空識別區👹
     @sendpaws @49016 @adiz @ar @sophie i saw xmpp has a subject field already in the specs so its possible to graft this idea on to a MUC as well. which would be really neat but would take some doing :blobcatgoogly:
   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Thursday, 10-Apr-2025 02:36:43 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     • Pawslut420
     • 👺防空識別區👹
     @sendpaws @ar @49016 @sophie @adiz zulip topics are more organic. you just set the subject field of a message to something else, and its done. you don't need permission to create a channel and various people can just edit subjects as a moderator action
     
     so you don't need server privs to create a room for a topic. and you can just move OT stuff to the correct topic, instead of screaming that everyone shut up (room shutdown.)
   • Embed this notice
     Pawslut420 (sendpaws@mitra.pawslut.party)'s status on Thursday, 10-Apr-2025 02:36:44 JST Pawslut420

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     • 👺防空識別區👹

     @icedquinn @ar @49016 @sophie @adiz no see Discord has "topics" (threads are some bullshit they added that really doesn't work) and you could have rooms within the main group/server.

     The problem is it either ends up congregating in the main chat or you get some chat mod screaming for not using the specific channel.

   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Friday, 11-Apr-2025 02:36:42 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Koi
     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     • Pawslut420
     • 👺防空識別區👹
     @adiz @koimoa @ar @49016 @sophie @sendpaws they pivoted to fulfilling corporate interests :ablobcatderpy:
   • Embed this notice
     👺防空識別區👹 (adiz@mtl.jinxian.casa)'s status on Friday, 11-Apr-2025 02:36:44 JST 👺防空識別區👹

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Koi
     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     • Pawslut420

     @koimoa They did abandon Dendrite. Which is hugely unfortunate because Synapse is so trash and so many issues performance-wise could have been solved if they'd gone "all in" on Dendrite. @icedquinn @ar @sophie @sendpaws @49016

   • Embed this notice
     👺防空識別區👹 (adiz@mtl.jinxian.casa)'s status on Friday, 11-Apr-2025 02:36:45 JST 👺防空識別區👹

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     • Pawslut420

     Would have been cool to see Dendrite shine, though. We use Matrix-Synapse in my company. @sendpaws @icedquinn @ar @49016 @sophie

   • Embed this notice
     Koi (koimoa@binky.fish)'s status on Friday, 11-Apr-2025 02:36:45 JST Koi

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     • Pawslut420
     • 👺防空識別區👹

     @adiz@mtl.jinxian.casa @sendpaws@mitra.pawslut.party @icedquinn@blob.cat @ar@is-a.cat @49016@mastodon.catgirl.cloud @sophie@mastodon.catgirl.cloud
     
     Didn't they abandon Dendrite? Also my favorite thing about Matrix is updating rooms, you lose all the history just to make a new one
     
     At this point maybe a fediverse chat app would be easier to implement

   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Friday, 11-Apr-2025 02:39:43 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     • 👺防空識別區👹
     • pwm
     @adiz @pwm @ar @49016 @sophie i use it on some casual postfix+dovecot install its really just fine.
     
     i do use a separate alias and mailbox for it though. its supposed to be capable of coexisting but i haven't tried to.
     
     gmail intentionally implements email wrong so i don't really care about criticisms involving that. for example using a standards compliant IMAP client, and moving mail to a folder, gmail will instead tag the mail and lie to the client that it was moved. this leads to an interesting acid test about how clients handle servers that overtly lie to them, as some will treat mail as moved when it isn't (and get confused by the next sync attempt) and others just trust what the server says always and don't make attempts to assume the correct behavior happened (which can itself be confusing as you 'move' mail and it doesn't move.)
   • Embed this notice
     👺防空識別區👹 (adiz@mtl.jinxian.casa)'s status on Friday, 11-Apr-2025 02:39:45 JST 👺防空識別區👹

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Sophie :nixos: :ferris:
     • pwm

     @pwm
     > DC has no latency if your mail host is their chatmail distribution and not a regular IMAP/SMTP server

     That may be so, but then that sort of defeats one of the biggest benefits of Delta Chat, namely, that if you already have email then you already have Delta Chat, and one only need login to one's email address to begin using it. So, now, it's under the caveat that, "well, actually, best practices is you should have a dedicated Delta Chat account that doesn't conflict with your actual email and for real performance you should spin up this special, dedicated email server that's tuned for Delta Chat". In that case, why not just use XMPP? Which is objectively better, with more features, and a more "complete" product? XMPP has been suggested as a viable and superior replacement protocol for email vs. SMTP, even! @sophie @49016 @ar @icedquinn