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   Adam Beer (adambyte@dragonscave.space)'s status on Thursday, 30-Jan-2025 12:51:26 JST Adam Beer

   This is probably my most controversial opinion. It's been percolating in my mind for a year or three, and I've finally figured out how to express it clearly and concisely.

   The fundamental problem with Israel, the ADL, etc. is that Zionism (or at least Jewish Zionism) is the result of learning the wrong lesson from the Holocaust.

   The Holocaust was the logical conclusion of an "Aryan" ethnostate. The definition of, "Aryan," was vague and it changed over time, but for the purposes of this post all we need to know is that it included, "not Jewish."

   The Zionists are the people who looked at that and thought, "This is evidence that we need a Jewish ethnostate," when what they should've thought is, "This is evidence that ethnostates are bad."

   Many are baffled by how Israel could "fall into" committing genocide when the entire reason it exists is supposedly to protect and empower a people who themselves had just suffered the quintessential genocide. But the tragic truth is that both genocides have the same cause: the mere fact that the perpetrator is an ethnostate.

   This is why a "two-state solution" isn't a solution. Separating ethnicities into their own ethnostates isn't the solution because those different ethnicities living together in the same state isn't the problem. The problem is that that state is an ethnostate. And so, the only real solution to the Israel-Palestine situation is for the whole place to become one pluralistic democracy with equal rights for all.

   #ADL #antiDefamationLeague #antisemitism #democracy #ethnonationalism #ethnostate #Gaza #Holocaust #Israel #Palestine #pluralism #Zionism

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     :mima_rule: Mima-sama (mima@makai.chaotic.ninja)'s status on Thursday, 30-Jan-2025 12:51:25 JST :mima_rule: Mima-sama

     in reply to

     @adambyte@dragonscave.space Your opinion is not really "most controversial" (it's pretty normalized now no thanks to the Soviet antisemites), but it is probably one of the most ignorant.
     
     A quick and careful look at the history would show you that Zionism has never been a homogeneous movement as you'd like to portray it as (that's your first mistake). Many (especially the Labor Zionists, which actually governed the Israeli state in most of its history and fought the Arab states trying to destroy Israel while it was in power) actually believed in integrating the Arabs into Israeli society and giving them equal rights. The recent aliyahs of Mizrahi Jews from the Middle East & North Africa (MENA) made Israel far from an ethnostate, as they brought with them cultures that clashed with the then-vast majority Ashkenazim (who you'd probably call "white"). Today the demographics are pretty much 50-50 between the Ashkenazim and Mizrahim, so the argument "go back to Europe" doesn't even work anymore. And ironically, it is mostly the Ashkenazim who are left-leaning and want a just peace between Israelis and Palestinians. The Likud's mass base is Mizrahim.
     
     It wasn't even necessarily the Shoah that pushed the Zionists to accelerate the reestablishment of Israel. I'd argue it's the refusal of Western countries to accept Jewish refugees (and the UK even blocked further Jewish immigation into Mandatory Palestine, they just don't want Jews to go anywhere!) and the continued pogroms in post-WW2 Poland which tipped the scales. What else could they have done to save the millions of surviving Jews, now refugees, trapped in a still-hostile Europe? People really just love Jews when they die helplessly; god forbid them actually live and determine their own destiny!

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     fri ⓥ 🐘 (fri@veganism.social)'s status on Friday, 31-Jan-2025 11:36:55 JST fri ⓥ 🐘

     in reply to

     • :mima_rule: Mima-sama
     • Jackie

     @burnoutqueen @mima @adambyte but madagascar was a nazi project and Israel had a strong history and a self determination resolution by the then-youngest UN. Not comparable at all

     :mima_rule: Mima-sama likes this.
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     Jackie (burnoutqueen@todon.nl)'s status on Friday, 31-Jan-2025 11:36:56 JST Jackie

     in reply to

     • :mima_rule: Mima-sama

     @mima @adambyte

     What I will say is that the answer to antisemitism is not making a bubble of ethnonationalism for the Jews. Carving out your own Madagascar pre-emptively is a poorly thought out idea in my opinion.

     The answer is making the world unsafe for fascism.

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     :mima_rule: Mima-sama (mima@makai.chaotic.ninja)'s status on Friday, 31-Jan-2025 12:07:21 JST :mima_rule: Mima-sama

     in reply to

     @adambyte@dragonscave.spaceI'm taking about the mindset of, "We need a state specifically for this group of people," which is the same as what motivates ethnostates.So all national liberation movements wanted ethnostates? Damn, I guess the Algerians shouldn't have fought for their independence from France and kicked the French out to establish their own independent state then.But that's the only perspective I've ever seen it refer to, so I still think it's fair.So if someone, like an Israeli who has lost family to past suicide attacks by Palestinian militants only ever see Palestinian liberation from that perspective, it's fair?
     
     Ignorance, once you learn of it, should not be intentional.I don't know where you got the idea that I think Jewish people shouldn't be allowed to determine their own destiny.Because it seemed like you adamantly refuse to even question the narrative you've come to believe in. Which is effectively a willful distortion of history and therefore willful denial to the Jewish people in Israel that they have exercised their right to self-determination like every other national liberation movement.There are, of course, many Jewish people who also publicly take this position, but again, I've only ever seen them referred to—by both themselves and others—as, "Jewish anti-Zionists."Breaking the Silence is anti-Zionist? Gush Shalom (which is founded by Uri Avnery, who fought for Irgun, and preferred to be called a "post-Zionist" instead of anti)? Standing Together?
     
     Have you actually tried looking at the human rights and peace organizations in Israel and Palestine instead of just limiting yourself to the anti-Zionist orgs in North America?

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     Adam Beer (adambyte@dragonscave.space)'s status on Friday, 31-Jan-2025 12:07:22 JST Adam Beer

     in reply to

     • :mima_rule: Mima-sama

     @mima Your discussion of the different Jewish ethnicities/lineages is quibbling over definitions while missing the actual point. When I call Israel a "Jewish ethnostate," I'm taking about the mindset of, "We need a state specifically for this group of people," which is the same as what motivates ethnostates. It doesn't matter whether or not Jewishness is technically an ethnicity.

     Overall, you seem to be accusing me of painting with too broad a brush, saying that the word, "Zionism," has historically referred to a variety of perspectives, of which I'm only criticising one. But that's the only perspective I've ever seen it refer to, so I still think it's fair. Actually, wait: this is also just quibbling over definitions!

     I don't know where you got the idea that I think Jewish people shouldn't be allowed to determine their own destiny. I thought I made it very clear that I was saying that their historical inability to determine their own destiny does not give them the right to impose that same dreadful condition upon others, most notably Palestinians. There are, of course, many Jewish people who also publicly take this position, but again, I've only ever seen them referred to—by both themselves and others—as, "Jewish anti-Zionists."