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  1. Embed this notice
    Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 10:52:16 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
    • Veronica Explains

    Speaking as a Fancy Computer Science Professor at a Fancy Institution of Higher Education who teaches the course on Programming Languages:

    I endorse @vkc’s position here 100%. https://linuxmom.net/@vkc/113669972894622255

    In conversation about 5 months ago from hachyderm.io permalink

    Attachments

    1. No result found on File_thumbnail lookup.
      Veronica Explains (@vkc@linuxmom.net)
      from Veronica Explains
      Blocking the ever loving crap out of dudebros who say HTML isn't programming today. Defederated from a few instances over it. If you're so petty as to dismiss HTML from your little elite club, I'm petty enough to nuke your ability to see my posts. HTML is programming, nana nana boo boo.
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 10:52:45 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Veronica Explains

      @vkc (To be clear, the position I endorse is both “HTML is programming” •and• the heckler blocking.)

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 10:55:11 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to

      Beyond the reasons of “don't heckle, don't be an asshole” and “this boundary-drawing is elitist” — reasons which, to be clear, are •entirely sufficient• to justify the OP on their own — I am willing to defend the assertions that writing HTML is programming and that HTML is a programming language on the merits:

      1/?

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
      alcinnz repeated this.
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 11:01:20 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to

      HTML is a way for humans to express their ideas and their intentions in a form that is unambiguously interpreted by a machine. We express our ideas, then turn them loose. The machine's interpretation may diverge from our human understanding; when it does, our ideas talk back to us and they •surprise• us.

      If that’s not programming, I don’t know what is.

      2/

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
      alcinnz repeated this.
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 11:04:19 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Keith Dawson

      @kdawson OP may have deleted? or locked account due to harassment? Edited with screenshot of text; may remove username if needed.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Keith Dawson (kdawson@tldr.nettime.org)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 11:04:20 JST Keith Dawson Keith Dawson
      in reply to
      • Veronica Explains

      @inthehands @vkc That link is 404 for me.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 11:10:34 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to

      We might draw a line about Turing completeness or intended purpose. Both completely miss the point.

      It is fun to try to find Turing tarpits in HTML and/or CSS! But that’s not what makes programming programming.

      The previous post is it. The problems of programming — the things that make it difficult, the things that make it rewarding — all come from that collision of human intent with unambiguous machine interpretation. That’s the game right there.

      /end

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink

      Attachments

      1. Domain not in remote thumbnail source whitelist: www.point.it
        Agenzia di Marketing e Comunicazione | POINT Studio Prato
        Soluzioni personalizzate in linea con le esigenze di aziende e professionisti, progetti di marketing integrato dall'offline al digitale.
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 11:16:36 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Greg Whitehead

      @grwster
      I mean, making the mistake of taking your cute remark seriously: the dog isn’t unless it’s a robot dog; that's teaching! One of the things that makes programming programming is the machine and its unambiguous interpretation. Teaching, however…that’s a whole other kettle of fish of a different color!

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Greg Whitehead (grwster@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 11:16:37 JST Greg Whitehead Greg Whitehead
      in reply to

      @inthehands 100%! LaTeX is programming, HTML is programming, Markdown is programming, teaching your dog to do tricks is programming. Not all programming is writing kernel drivers

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 11:18:22 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Krzysztof Sakrejda

      @wronglang
      I mean, yeah, there’s something to the idea that LLMs are not so different as we think from previous attempts to get machiens to follow human instructions!

      The actual definition of AI is “thing that humans can be good at that computers were recently bad at,” so anything is at most •temporarily• AI once a computer gets good at it!

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Krzysztof Sakrejda (wronglang@bayes.club)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 11:18:23 JST Krzysztof Sakrejda Krzysztof Sakrejda
      in reply to

      @inthehands

      no one in particular: ...
      me: I could argue HTML is also #AI, we just ask it to lay out documents using simple phrases and through the magic of parameters learned from decades of design experience the HTML interpreter presents a nicely optimized presentation. It's basically magic!

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 11:24:14 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Krzysztof Sakrejda

      @wronglang
      I stand by mine. It’s the only one that’s held up over my years in the biz.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Krzysztof Sakrejda (wronglang@bayes.club)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 11:24:16 JST Krzysztof Sakrejda Krzysztof Sakrejda
      in reply to

      @inthehands the definition of AI is disappointingly thin these days

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Greg Whitehead (grwster@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 11:31:47 JST Greg Whitehead Greg Whitehead
      in reply to

      @inthehands fair enough, though teaching a dog a trick is about capturing behaviors and putting them on command, and then chaining those commands, which is more like programming than teaching in my book

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 11:31:47 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Greg Whitehead

      @grwster
      I mean, maybe could one say that this kind of training — dogs, horses, soldiers, orchestral musicians, surgical assistants*, anything where you’re trying to teach a living creature to follow instructions with near-mechanical consistency — is teaching the student to be a machine, so that they can be “programmed” for the day’s task?

      * (no disrespect to any of these roles / jobs, all demanding!)

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 11:36:27 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Krzysztof Sakrejda

      @wronglang
      ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If you’re looking for output that hews to norms, then it’s no surprise that pattern-matched plagiarism from a broad database of human inputs can provide it! And since that’s something that computers were recently bad at doing, then it does quality as AI. For now.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Krzysztof Sakrejda (wronglang@bayes.club)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 11:36:28 JST Krzysztof Sakrejda Krzysztof Sakrejda
      in reply to

      @inthehands I have gone through the exercise of trying to talk the chatgpt instance the university of Michigan makes available to its staff into terrible ethical positions and I gotta say it performed better (on, e.g.-Palestine) than a lot of the discourse in the mainstream news media so maybe there's some value to having a machine that produces average text... at least in the context of.. whatever we're experiencing right now...

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 11:53:14 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Greg Whitehead

      @grwster
      We're wandering now, but heck with it:

      I have a whole soapbox about how we sometimes misinterpret musical scores as being programming when they’re not. There’s a whole spectrum of •how a score carries meaning• that depends on the types and degree of interpretive liberty the score affords within its musical-cultural context. Some scores are basically MIDI by other means; some are only the loosest framework for improvisation.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Greg Whitehead (grwster@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 11:53:15 JST Greg Whitehead Greg Whitehead
      in reply to

      @inthehands orchestral scores / sheet music / guitar tabs, definitely programming… I’m a flawed machine when running those programs, but that’s not the programmer / composer’s fault ;-)

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 11:54:58 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Greg Whitehead

      @grwster The classical world I come from has IMO erred since the mid 20th century much to far toward seeing scores toward the “MIDI by other means” end of the spectrum, particularly with pre-20C music. I’m pretty sure that if we could hear a recording of, say, Chopin or Bach playing their own music, a modern classical musician’s immediate reaction would be “No! That's wrong!!”

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Oliver Jensen (ojensen@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 12:02:14 JST Oliver Jensen Oliver Jensen
      in reply to

      @inthehands people like to think programming is while loops and if conditionals. I like to remind people of their programmable TV remotes.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 12:03:34 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Greg Whitehead

      @grwster
      If so, then C is not a programming language!

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Greg Whitehead (grwster@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 12:03:35 JST Greg Whitehead Greg Whitehead
      in reply to

      @inthehands point taken, but circling back to HTML, a certain amount of interpretation by the rendering engine is allowed… so, are programming languages by definition always tightly specified?

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 13:01:07 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • padraigd
      • Krzysztof Sakrejda

      @padraigd @wronglang
      Yeah, the “don't use abstractions” people really crack me up. Like…do you push electrons around by hand with a little pin?

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      padraigd (padraigd@norcal.social)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Dec-2024 13:01:08 JST padraigd padraigd
      in reply to
      • Krzysztof Sakrejda

      @wronglang @inthehands How your computer works under the hood is pretty wild. Branch prediction blew my mind, makes determinism an interesting notion.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 01:21:00 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to

      An addendum, a useful word:

      An ••ostensive definition•• is a definition by example. No bright line that distinguishes “is” from “isn’t;” instead, we have a set of examples we agree clearly fit the word, then ask, “How does this other thing resemble the examples?”

      Some words are best defined ostensively. “Sandwich” is a great example. You can have silly fun playing with the boundary conditions — A quesadilla is a sandwich!! A hot dog is a taco!! — but to get pendantic about that fun is foolish.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
      alcinnz repeated this.
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 01:24:39 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to

      With a word like sandwich that’s defined ostensively, instead of asking “Is it a sandwich or not? Binary yes or no!!,” it’s better to ask, “•How• is it a sandwich?”

      Similarly: “How is ____ a programming language?”

      How does it resemble the pattern? How does it depart from it? What lesson we’ve learned about programming apply here? What don’t? Will it need…technical learning? precision? testing? debugging? version control? docs? knowledge sharing? curiosity? resilience to frustration? etc.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
      alcinnz repeated this.
    • Embed this notice
      Jesse Morris (aubilenon@peoplemaking.games)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 03:06:12 JST Jesse Morris Jesse Morris
      in reply to

      @inthehands My take is that this fits into the same category of whether something is art, or music, or a game, or a sport, or drug paraphernalia, or a toy, or a tool, or a vacation. None of these are intrinsic properties of the object or activity, they're ways of engaging with it.

      The reason this is even a topic to talk about arises because one can totally use a WSIWYG editor and treat HTML as "text with some parts in italics” which is _not_ a programming type interaction, but you can also do more complex stuff that has to account for a bunch of different situations both today and tomorrow, which is not materially different from the sorts of things what someone writing C++ has to do.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 04:01:18 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Larry Garfield

      Thanks, @Crell, I'm glad you asked!

      Nontrivial Excel usage is quite obviously programming. Come on. But beyond that:

      We’d have a much better understanding of usability failures if we understood tiny UI actions as itty bitty moments of programming. We’re asking people to momentarily span the bridge between human understanding and machine execution. Pretending that bridge doesn't exist is a perennial footgun.

      “What, even clicking a button, Paul?!?” Well…

      https://phpc.social/@Crell/113680660849631952

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
      alcinnz repeated this.
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 04:05:12 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to

      …try looking at it that way:

      A button is a machine abstraction designed to accommodate human expression. It has a syntax whose underlying fabric is clicks/taps and mouse/finger motion. It assigns semantics to that syntax. Humans click the button with human intentions, and the machine executes the instructions.

      It is a ~3-state DFA, afew teeny tiny itty bitty atoms of programming.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink

      Attachments

      1. No result found on File_thumbnail lookup.
        instructions.it
        This domain may be for sale!
      alcinnz repeated this.
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 04:09:17 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to

      If a UI button is a programming language, it's a tiny, trivial one. But that lens of “In what ways is this user interface a form of programming?” does open the door to insights about what experiences humans are going to have trying to use it.

      We programmers understand the difficulties and the dangers of:

      - compounding complexity
      - mismatch between mental model and machine implementation
      - error states
      - unintended consequences
      - solving the problem at hand using the building blocks available

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
      alcinnz repeated this.
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 04:11:31 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to

      - not losing sight of the problem in the middle of fighting the machine
      - the way social / human problems can come to ahead when codified in commands given to a machine
      - the way a better abstraction can make change whether something is easy, flexible, error-prone, adaptable, correct
      - etc

      Viewing computer interaction as a series of increasingly programming-like steps goes a long way toward explaining why your dad can’t figure out how to change the wifi password.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 04:14:41 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Nik

      Looking at things that way, @nikclayton’s snarky reply is unironically correct:
      https://mastodon.social/@nikclayton/113680873868692643

      I mean, seriously, formatting things with a word processor can feel a hell of a lot like getting some developer API to do this one damned thing that it just…won’t…do.

      And it feels the same because •it has the same set of problems•.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink

      Attachments

      1. No result found on File_thumbnail lookup.
        Nik (@nikclayton@mastodon.social)
        from Nik
        @inthehands@hachyderm.io "Trying to wrap text around an image in Microsoft Word is programming"
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 04:16:03 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to

      I know, I know, the Reply Guy Armada is coming to tell me “If •everything* is programming, then •nothing• is!” Cool your jets, my friends.

      Some things a very much programming, some things only slightly so. The useful question here is not “Where is the precise boundary?” but rather “How much does it belong to this family of problems, and how can we learn about it by bringing the knowledge and experience of that discipline to bear?”

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 04:22:16 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Jesse Morris

      Here @aubilenon gets at something really important, and per the above, all the comparisons to “is it art / music / a game” etc etc are on point:
      https://peoplemaking.games/@aubilenon/113680577564840603

      Context matters. Intent matters. Patterns of usage matter •a lot•.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink

      Attachments

      1. No result found on File_thumbnail lookup.
        Jesse Morris (@aubilenon@peoplemaking.games)
        from Jesse Morris
        @inthehands@hachyderm.io My take is that this fits into the same category of whether something is art, or music, or a game, or a sport, or drug paraphernalia, or a toy, or a tool, or a vacation. None of these are intrinsic properties of the object or activity, they're ways of engaging with it. The reason this is even a topic to talk about arises because one can totally use a WSIWYG editor and treat HTML as "text with some parts in italics” which is _not_ a programming type interaction, but you can also do more complex stuff that has to account for a bunch of different situations both today and tomorrow, which is not materially different from the sorts of things what someone writing C++ has to do.
    • Embed this notice
      Marsh Gardiner 💡🐝🔧 (earth2marsh@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 04:25:46 JST Marsh Gardiner 💡🐝🔧 Marsh Gardiner 💡🐝🔧
      in reply to

      @inthehands scoped problems, their meta-problems, and their ancestors' and descendants' problems…

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Sophie Schmieg (sophieschmieg@infosec.exchange)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 04:26:33 JST Sophie Schmieg Sophie Schmieg
      in reply to
      • Larry Garfield

      @inthehands @Crell the fun thing about ostensibly defined concepts is that you get edge cases that still very much can claim to be the thing, but which have mutually empty intersection. In this case: implementing NAND gates, wires, and delay lines using Venus fly traps is programming (it's creating a Turing complete device, after all), and writing a markdown document is programming (it's telling a computer how to do stuff, after all), but their intersection is empty (unless, of course, you use a lot of Venus fly traps and implement x86).

      I feel like the world is more fun that way, compared to excluding random things.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
      Paul Cantrell repeated this.
    • Embed this notice
      Three LLMs in a Trenchcoat (me@mastodon.seahousen.eu)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 04:26:33 JST Three LLMs in a Trenchcoat Three LLMs in a Trenchcoat
      in reply to
      • Sophie Schmieg
      • Larry Garfield

      @sophieschmieg @inthehands @Crell 'for any reasonable all-or-none definition of chicken, it has happened at least once in history that a chicken has hatched from an egg laid by a non-chicken, something that can obviously never have happened'

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Marsh Gardiner 💡🐝🔧 (earth2marsh@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 04:26:43 JST Marsh Gardiner 💡🐝🔧 Marsh Gardiner 💡🐝🔧
      in reply to
      • Nik

      @inthehands @nikclayton PREACH!

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 04:27:12 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      • datarama

      @datarama
      Agreed, right up to the end: at that point, you're making Roller Coaster Tycoon / Minecraft into a programming language.

      People who build working machines out of the Game of Life quickly start building up design patterns and abstractions. Programming is a kind of problem and/or a way of using something, not just an intrinsic attribute of the object itself.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
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      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 04:31:15 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Bill Seitz

      @billseitz
      Heh, I’m game as long as we don’t forget that the purpose of the Cube Rule is to be silly

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Bill Seitz (billseitz@toolsforthought.social)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 04:31:16 JST Bill Seitz Bill Seitz
      in reply to

      @inthehands we need a Cube Rule for languages
      https://cuberule.com/

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink

      Attachments

      1. Domain not in remote thumbnail source whitelist: cuberule.com
        The Cube Rule
        Identify your food based on the location of structural starch. Is a hot dog a sandwich? No, it's clearly a taco.
    • Embed this notice
      jorendorff (jorendorff@kfogel.org)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 04:46:43 JST jorendorff jorendorff
      in reply to
      • Bill Seitz
      @inthehands @billseitz If it has a frontend and a backend, it's a compiler. if backend only, it's a database. if it doesn't end, it's called a daemon. if it also has a leftend and a rightend it's ravioli
      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
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      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 04:47:13 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Bill Seitz
      • jorendorff

      @jorendorff @billseitz
      “Our fully relational ravioli offers the dual benefits of both persistence and delicience”

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      David Nash (dpnash@c.im)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 04:47:44 JST David Nash David Nash
      in reply to
      • Nik

      @inthehands @nikclayton This all reminds me of one of the first actual "debugging" tools I ever used (this was before I had done enough "what-people-who-think-HTML-isn't-programming" programming to use or need a traditional debugger for it).

      "Reveal Codes."

      This was the magic WordPerfect command from the 80s/90s that showed you why, for example, the fricking italics weren't working or that one section on that one page was just a little bit off. "Reveal Codes" popped up a little text area (not even a window, this was DOS, after all) showing a section of your text and all the associated "codes", which were tags indicating the structure or appearance of whatever they contained.

      A *lot* like HTML.

      And using Reveal Codes to figure out where your document was going wrong, and why, and how to fix it, was a lot like wrangling HTML to get your web page to have the right structure and appearance...and, as noted, also like trying to figure out how to get a cranky API to get the kind of output that you need it to deliver.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
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      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 04:48:19 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      • datarama

      @datarama
      I mean, we’re dancing around two sides of the same coin: yes, and at some point, you’ve got to admit that it’s become a musical instrument.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 04:49:17 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Bill Seitz
      • jorendorff

      @jorendorff @billseitz
      * slow clap *

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      jorendorff (jorendorff@kfogel.org)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 04:49:20 JST jorendorff jorendorff
      in reply to
      • Bill Seitz
      @inthehands @billseitz idunno sounds like it could lead to spaghetti code
      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 04:56:14 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Nik
      • David Nash

      @dpnash @nikclayton
      All that. I really appreciate all these historical on-ramps — Applesoft BASIC was mine! — that allow a random curious human’s machine interactions to progressively become more and more programming-shaped.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      David Nash (dpnash@c.im)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 04:56:15 JST David Nash David Nash
      in reply to
      • Nik

      @inthehands @nikclayton I'd actually go so far as to say that Reveal Codes back in the 80s made HTML almost instantly comprehensible, even with emerging complexities like (then-larval) style sheets, in the 90s. And *that* in turn made it possible for me to make the jump to web development as a career when a previous one started to head south -- more so in many ways than having a reasonably decent background in "what the annoying pedants call programming" programming as well.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Nik (nikclayton@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 05:13:53 JST Nik Nik
      in reply to

      @inthehands Not sure why you thought that was sarcastic. Trying to form a mental model of how Word interprets formatting instructions ("Why does the formatting change when I collapsed two paragraphs into one?") and then giving instructions to Word based on that mental model meets the definition.

      Contrast that with pounding on the keyboard trying to get it to do what you want without understanding what's going on.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 05:13:53 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Nik

      @nikclayton
      I misinferred the sarcasm. Apologies! We seem to be on the same page here, very much so.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 06:13:50 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Larry Garfield

      @Crell
      Please study the thread’s invitation to think of this term as a continuum, a quality that some activity may possess in greater or lesser quantity, rather than a boundary with an inside and an outside

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Larry Garfield (crell@phpc.social)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 06:13:52 JST Larry Garfield Larry Garfield
      in reply to

      @inthehands I am still partially agreeing with you. :-) I've referred to spreadsheet gurus as the largest stealth group of functional programmers in the world.

      But conversely, if you're defining virtually any interaction with a microprocessor as programming, then the word means everything, and thus nothing. There is a qualitative difference between writing C++ or CSS and playing win-solitaire. How to capture that if not the word "programming"?

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 06:14:30 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Larry Garfield
      • Dion Moult

      @thinkMoult @Crell
      This video never gets old.

      Also in the same general spirit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP5-iIeKXE8

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink

      Attachments

      1. Life in life
        from Phillip Bradbury
        A video of Conway's Game of Life, emulated in Conway's Game of Life.The Life pattern is the OTCA Metapixel: http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/OTCA_metapixel - f...
    • Embed this notice
      Dion Moult (thinkmoult@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 20-Dec-2024 06:14:31 JST Dion Moult Dion Moult
      in reply to
      • Larry Garfield

      @inthehands @Crell probably worththile at this point to resurrect https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNjxe8ShM-8

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink

      Attachments

      1. On The Turing Completeness of PowerPoint (SIGBOVIK)
        from Tom Wildenhain
        Video highlighting my research on PowerPoint Turing Machines for CMU's SIGBOVIK 2017Read the paper:http://tomwildenhain.com/PowerPointTM/Paper.pdfDownload th...
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 21-Dec-2024 03:55:11 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • qsx 🛡️

      @qsx
      (Java is compiled too — JIT-compiled, yes, but it does run as native machine code — unless you disable the JIT compiler and force the JVM to interpret it. But I like the larger spirit of your heckle!)

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      qsx 🛡️ (qsx@chaos.social)'s status on Saturday, 21-Dec-2024 03:55:12 JST qsx 🛡️ qsx 🛡️
      in reply to
      • Veronica Explains

      @inthehands @vkc additionally: Java is interpreted by the JVM and therefore a scripting language, while Perl is compiled and thus a """real""" programming language. Tell that the next person who tries to belittle "scripting languages".

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      qsx 🛡️ (qsx@chaos.social)'s status on Saturday, 21-Dec-2024 03:55:13 JST qsx 🛡️ qsx 🛡️
      in reply to
      • Veronica Explains

      @inthehands @vkc personally, I'd consider "programming" the intention to formulate an algorithm (yes I study CS at a uni with a strong focus on theory how could you tell?)
      However, in this context, it's hardly relevant: when you take away an asshole's argument, they're just gonna find a new one. And if someone says "HTML isn't programming" with the intent to belittle someone, they're just an asshole and need to be told so.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 21-Dec-2024 11:41:30 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • jn: &'a RISCAssessor
      • qsx 🛡️

      @jn @qsx
      Those were the days!

      Are there any widely used modern processors that directly support JVM bytecode like Jazelle did? or offer alt instruction decode like that at all? Or has JIT compilation won the day completely at this point?

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      jn: &'a RISCAssessor (jn@boopsnoot.de)'s status on Saturday, 21-Dec-2024 11:41:38 JST jn: &'a RISCAssessor jn: &'a RISCAssessor
      in reply to
      • qsx 🛡️

      @qsx @inthehands Java is compiled to an instruction stream designed for the abstract Java Virtual Machine and interpreted by the alternate instruction decode frontend of ARM926EJ-S and ARM1176JZ-S CPUs

      weird* machines all the way up and down

      (* in the colloquial sense of "weird", and sometimes in the academic sense of "weird machine")

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      qsx 🛡️ (qsx@chaos.social)'s status on Saturday, 21-Dec-2024 11:41:40 JST qsx 🛡️ qsx 🛡️
      in reply to
      • jn: &'a RISCAssessor

      @inthehands I feel like this is the perfect moment to summon @jn for some Jazelle :>

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 09:12:35 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Tim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPE

      @TimWardCam
      Jesus fucking christ, man, it's OK if you fail to read/understand the thread’s argument, but you don't have to reply to •tell• me that you failed to understand it

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Tim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPE (timwardcam@c.im)'s status on Sunday, 05-Jan-2025 09:12:36 JST Tim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶  #FBPE Tim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPE
      in reply to

      @inthehands Go on, then, let's see a noughts and crosses game coded purely in HTML - if it can't be done it's not a programming language.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 08:17:17 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to

      An anecdatum for the thread above:

      I’m in the process of reworking my personal web site. (It’s better now! It will be betterer soon!) To do this, because I am a fool, I wrote my own static site generator. The new site has thus involved:

      - implementing what’s effectively an in-memory nosql database
      - that supports and merges multiple data file formats
      - with a flexible data transformation layer
      - and an interactive data explorer
      - and a data-driven presentation layer that that supports multiple template languages
      - with scripting support
      - and partials support
      - that keeps related script, template, and style fragments together using a custom syntax
      - and assembles them dynamically
      - and scopes CSS fragments to their related component
      - and provides good stack traces that give template line numbers
      - with a comprehensive regression test suite
      - with a custom test harness
      - and RSS feeds
      - that gather items from heterogeneous data sources
      - and support audio attachments (podcasts)
      - all of the above basically done more or less FROM SCRATCH
      - with a dev web server
      - with live updates on change
      - and dynamic metadata retrival for audio files
      - and dynamic generation of raster previews of PDFs

      …and do you know what the hardest part of the web site project has been, •by far•?

      Writing the CSS.

      https://hachyderm.io/@inthehands/113680321770743062

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 08:22:03 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to

      To be clear, it is •not• the case that being hard is what makes something programming.

      I mean, if this is some kind of social hierarchy pissing contest about who’s “technical” and who’s doing “real work” and whatever, then yes it matters. But being hard isn’t what makes it programming.

      The question is: what’s made the CSS hard?

      - achieving design goals with the available building blocks
      - dealing with unexpected semantics
      - balancing reuse with abstraction overload
      - testing across devices and contexts
      - adjusting scope and goals based on implementation difficulty
      - preventing and detecting breaking changes, esp in distant code
      - taming complexity
      - maintaing clarity about larger goals while in the technical weeds

      I could go on.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 08:24:35 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to
      • Jesse Morris

      Per @aubilenon’s excellent post above, a key factor for “Is it programming?” or “Is it art?” or “Is it a game?” is •how• the human(s) are engaging with it.

      Well, the previous post tells you how I’m engaging with this thing. If I gave you that list but didn’t tell you the language, would you say it sounds like programming? I sure would.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Paul Cantrell (inthehands@hachyderm.io)'s status on Sunday, 12-Jan-2025 08:28:33 JST Paul Cantrell Paul Cantrell
      in reply to

      The point of all my table-thumping is that when machines are involved, lots of things turn into programming — complete with all the challenges and pitfalls that entails.

      We have strategies for dealing with those challenges and pitfalls. Recognizing programming wherever it emerges can help us meet those challenges, or change the problem to avoid them.

      Drawing bright lines about what is and is not programming is actively harmful in those situations. We’d damn well better recognize programming when it comes up and bites us.

      In conversation about 5 months ago permalink

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