mekka okereke :verified:
Screenshot of BlueSky post showing the power of composable moderation.
This post illustrates what I tried to tell folks here about how even though there are nazis on Twitter, and have always been nazis on Twitter, the lack of hidden replies, combined with a large community to file reports, meant that most Black women didn't see most of the abuse.👍🏿
Contrast that with Mastodon, where people fight against TheBadSpace, hidden replies are a thing, and folks don't believe Black users about abuse.
mekka okereke :verified:
Here's what I tried to say.
Mastodon Migration
So to be very clear. You are saying a big part of the problem is 'Followers only' replies.
Bam
Just so you know @mekkaokereke has posted about the abuse of followers only replies many times in the past. Tbh, I had no idea people did this until he posted about it. Since then I’ve been the target of it as a minority as well, although not to the same extent (likely due to my own preventative actions).
mekka okereke :verified:
Fair question!
White folk generally don't listen to Black people about their experiences. And when they do listen, they often don't believe. And when they do listen and believe, they often assume that them thinking about it for 5 or 10 minutes will yield a better solution than proposals from people that have been thinking about it for 5 or 10 years.
And in terms of queer... Mastodon never worked great for queer people in general. Because it never worked great for Black queer people.🤷🏿♂️
lj·rk
@mekkaokereke I still don't get it honestly. I know that my situation is different, I'm white. But I had very similar experiences with Mastodon... on servers that promptly moderate/filter/block transphobes. I would expect similar things from servers which have a focus in racism. Catch-all servers are a problem for the Fediverse because they combine the hard problem of moderating a platform with the lacking cross-federation moderation.
What is different here/makes the situation uniqe? I've been reading a lot of your posts over the last months but I honestly don't get why the solution the queer community did (lots of queer aligned servers) don't work for Black people :/
mekka okereke :verified:
Queer people on Mastodon don't even notice the severe lack of Black queer people. It's very weird.
Mastodon Migration
Yes, very aware of the issue. Just wanted to highlight the specific vector of abuse.
Not really sure what other purpose this reply mode serves. Do many (any) people use 'Followers only' for anything other than this kind of harrassment?
Eugen Rochko
@mastodonmigration @Bam @mekkaokereke Some people prefer to keep their posts to a closed group of people instead of publishing everything for the world to see. This could be because they don't want their employer to see what they write online, or because they're from a vulnerable group that's at risk of receiving harassment online, or because they don't want their thoughts to be recorded on the internet forever. It's a fairly popular method of posting on Mastodon.
Rich Felker
@mastodonmigration @mekkaokereke Followers-only replies are a nasty misfeature, roughly equivalent to PQRT.
Jan Helms
@mastodonmigration @Bam @mekkaokereke I became aware of this problem through Mekka's posts, and then noticed a few very polemic dudes using it on me in political "discussions". Had to screenshot their replies and post them myself. They claimed they didn't know what they were doing. I can't imagine how it must feel when people use this frequently on you with clear abusive goals. I completely understand that this renders mastodon an unfriendly place.
carl marks
@ljrk @mekkaokereke look at mekka's response to you again, and apply what he said about white people to white moderators. Almost every moderator on the fediverse is white. That's why it doesn't work.
lj·rk
@mekkaokereke I do notice it, and I understand somewhat of the why – I just don't understand why the solution that worked for me doesn't work for them because the problems superficially resemble mine, a white queer person.
On mastodon.social I had similar problems w.r.t. moderation etc., other people getting shit moderated away which left me alone reading transphobic comments. On my new instance not anymore.
Stefan Bohacek
"Some people prefer to keep their posts to a closed group of people"
The use case discussed here is a bit different.
You can tag a non-follower in your post, then set the post to followers-only, making it so that the person you mentioned can see your post, your followers can pile on, and nobody else gets to witness this.
There really is no reason for this functionality, a followers-only post should not be shown to people who are not followers.
Mastodon Migration
This makes sense, and several replies in this thread are from people who clarify that they use this mode for the purposes you describe. As others note this mode is also used as a means to harass people while remaining hidden from public view. So, both things seem true. A lot of the discussion centers around how to preserve the positive uses, while addressing the potential for abusive uses of the mode.
Eugen Rochko
@stefan @mastodonmigration @Bam @mekkaokereke So this was built out in accordance with early feedback around 2016/2017 and meant to address two things: One, the major downside of "protected mode" on Twitter cutting you off from being to talk to non-mutuals; and two, making sure that you could see if someone was trying to dogpile you in secret. I'm not dead set on this behaviour but it needs to be evaluated in full context. I'll bring it up to the team on Monday.
carl marks
@ljrk I'll keep it simple. We tried that. We are trying that. Look at my instance name. Look at the about page. We have robust moderation. It's not enough. Black folks do come here, but they rarely stay. More often, they get harassed until they leave. I've seen it happen many times.
I'm a Black queer person standing in front of you telling you the same solution doesn't work. If you want to know why, take it up with your fellow white people and their racism. All we can give you is the truth.
lj·rk
@tillshadeisgone @mekkaokereke I understand that, but I don't understand how that's a reason why the solution wouldn't work.
Specifically, this was the same for non-queer-aligned servers in the fedi as well. While the fedi is generally more queer than maybe some other platforms, many mods used to be cis-het and the policies often didn't recognize queerphobia much. That's why "we" did our own servers. This has both provided us with a safe-space as well as pushed the entire fedi slightly more queer because it provided reason for influx of (white) queer people.
And I just don't understand why this approach does not work for the BIPoC community as well :(
lj·rk
@tillshadeisgone Thank you for taking the time to answer! I know it's very much emotionally taxing and I appreciate your effort.
Foremost, I believe you. However I'd love to do more than believe. Because in the end, if I don't understand the problem space, I'm just gonna perpetuate solutions that don't work. Of course I can parrot that this is what Black folx say, but this doesn't help with building something better. And whilst, of course, the root issue is that white racism exists – we can't change that soon. And also that's not what BlueSky did.
Their moderation system is working better for you. And I want to understand why this is. Or: Why the Fedi moderation system doesn't work for you. Because if we want to build better we need to understand the points of failure.
And it baffles me that people get harrassed til they leave. I mean: Not that this harassing is something that exists, but how it passes the layers of moderation. How does this happen when it doesn't for white queer folx? There's a lot that's unique to racism, but what property of it is it, that makes it bypass moderation instantiated by Black folx themselves?
Or w.r.t. BlueSky: What is it about their system that gets the job done better. Again, I totally believe you that it does, but I want to understand why :/
Tony 🐯
@Gargron When are proper DMs coming?
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