Conversation

Notices

1. Embed this notice
   Quinn Norton (quinn@social.circl.lu)'s status on Friday, 22-Nov-2024 22:31:41 JST Quinn Norton

   Europeans, and Brussels especially, need to start thinking about how they handle it when Americans start showing up with credible asylum claims.

   • Embed this notice
     maswan (maswan@mastodon.acc.sunet.se)'s status on Saturday, 23-Nov-2024 01:06:29 JST maswan

     in reply to

     @quinn Unfortunately, the political direction the last decade or so has lead to an extremely harsh asylum environment. If we're sending gay men back to Afghanistan, I would not hold much hope that any Americans would be considered having "credible" claims by the people doing the deportations.

   • Embed this notice
     webhat (webhat@infosec.exchange)'s status on Saturday, 23-Nov-2024 01:11:48 JST webhat

     in reply to

     • maswan

     @maswan @quinn there is discussion by politicians whether a country having one safe area means EU countries can classify the country as safe and send people back to the country they were fleeing

   • Embed this notice
     Quinn Norton (quinn@social.circl.lu)'s status on Saturday, 23-Nov-2024 01:11:48 JST Quinn Norton

     in reply to

     • maswan
     • webhat

     @webhat @maswan but the US has interstate extradition, and it's pretty automatic. esp if the FBI gets involved. From a practical point, there's not safe area.

   • Embed this notice
     Quinn Norton (quinn@social.circl.lu)'s status on Saturday, 23-Nov-2024 01:14:12 JST Quinn Norton

     in reply to

     • Alexander 🇵🇸

     @alexander cool story bro. i'm talking about asylum law in the EU.

   • Embed this notice
     Alexander 🇵🇸 (alexander@social.coop)'s status on Saturday, 23-Nov-2024 01:14:13 JST Alexander 🇵🇸

     in reply to

     @quinn I genuinely have no idea if this is satire. Americans, who both directly and indirectly have caused more displacement across the world than any other nation in history, now want special treatment in Europe as you finally reap the seeds you have sown elsewhere. The lack of self-awareness is unreal.

   • Embed this notice
     Quinn Norton (quinn@social.circl.lu)'s status on Saturday, 23-Nov-2024 01:18:00 JST Quinn Norton

     in reply to

     • 🍵 holly
     • Alexander 🇵🇸

     @alexander @holly not sure you know how asylum works. you only get asylum if you can prove that you're facing a credible threat in your country of origin. it's not easy.

   • Embed this notice
     Alexander 🇵🇸 (alexander@social.coop)'s status on Saturday, 23-Nov-2024 01:18:02 JST Alexander 🇵🇸

     in reply to

     • 🍵 holly

     @holly @quinn And of course, those facing genuine persecution should receive asylum. I want a better, more empathetic asylum system across Europe for all.

     Americans don't get to cut the line because they think they're special, and middle-class liberals certainly don't get preference over the poor and disposed of Africa and the Middle East just because they don't like their government.

   • Embed this notice
     🍵 holly (holly@social.v.st)'s status on Saturday, 23-Nov-2024 01:18:04 JST 🍵 holly

     in reply to

     • Alexander 🇵🇸

     @alexander @quinn The ones who are trying to leave are the ones who are so disgusted with America, or so threatened by the hate, that they are willing to leave their homes, friends, families, and jobs to move somewhere where they will have to live life on hard mode while trying to integrate, to get away from it. They are not the sowers.

   • Embed this notice
     Rachegedanken (Ltd Ed.) (monsoonrains@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 23-Nov-2024 02:04:29 JST Rachegedanken (Ltd Ed.)

     in reply to

     • CelloMom On Cars

     @CelloMomOnCars @quinn Ukrainians were...

   • Embed this notice
     Quinn Norton (quinn@social.circl.lu)'s status on Saturday, 23-Nov-2024 02:04:29 JST Quinn Norton

     in reply to

     • Rachegedanken (Ltd Ed.)
     • CelloMom On Cars

     @monsoonrains @CelloMomOnCars true that.

   • Embed this notice
     CelloMom On Cars (cellomomoncars@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 23-Nov-2024 02:04:30 JST CelloMom On Cars

     in reply to

     @quinn

     Especially in light of coutnries' *current* asylum policies: When Americans show up seeking asylum, will they be treated differently from anyone else seeking asylum? hmmm?

   • Embed this notice
     Quinn Norton (quinn@social.circl.lu)'s status on Saturday, 23-Nov-2024 02:06:11 JST Quinn Norton

     in reply to

     • maswan
     • webhat

     @webhat @maswan and remember, there's likely to be medical staff that could face life imprisonment or the death penalty for abortion care in the next few years.

   • Embed this notice
     Quinn Norton (quinn@social.circl.lu)'s status on Saturday, 23-Nov-2024 05:04:27 JST Quinn Norton

     in reply to

     • webhat

     @webhat Trust me I know exactly how hard it is. But that doesn't make the moment an American credibly enters that system less strange and scary for the Europeans.

   • Embed this notice
     webhat (webhat@infosec.exchange)'s status on Saturday, 23-Nov-2024 05:04:28 JST webhat

     in reply to

     • 🍵 holly
     • Alexander 🇵🇸

     @quinn @alexander @holly I think you are underselling how hard it actually is, there are currently people who have applied for asylum who will be sleeping outside in subzero temperature. Others who are literally in refurbished prisons, locked in their rooms for 20 hours a day because the service in purposely understaffed and underfunded. There are people, with children, sleeping in churches where the service goes on 24/7, as the law states that the police can't interrupt an active religious service, to avoid being arrested and deported

     Not going to be easy, is really understating the reality people are currently going through

   • Embed this notice
     webhat (webhat@infosec.exchange)'s status on Saturday, 23-Nov-2024 05:29:38 JST webhat

     in reply to

     • maswan

     @quinn you don't need to convince me. Politicians, who are in power, want to send people back to Syria, Afghanistan, or other places that they will almost certainly be killed for being themselves. Racist politicians, who are in power, are in the news telling journalists they are tired of white Ukrainians, and they are fleeing an invasion

     As I've previously said, I don't think people from the US should be under any illusion that it will be easy to get asylum in the Europe

     cc: @maswan

     Rich Felker repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     Quinn Norton (quinn@social.circl.lu)'s status on Saturday, 23-Nov-2024 05:29:38 JST Quinn Norton

     in reply to

     • maswan
     • webhat

     @webhat @maswan do you think this is easier or harder than doing time in Angola or... Huntsville?

   • Embed this notice
     Quinn Norton (quinn@social.circl.lu)'s status on Saturday, 23-Nov-2024 07:52:20 JST Quinn Norton

     in reply to

     • Alexander 🇵🇸

     @alexander wait a sec, are you English? And talking about ...displacing people? You're going to have to fight that out with the French and Dutch, the Americans are barely in the running.

   • Embed this notice
     maswan (maswan@mastodon.acc.sunet.se)'s status on Saturday, 23-Nov-2024 22:19:38 JST maswan

     in reply to

     • webhat

     @webhat @quinn Same.

     As I noted, we're currently deporting gay atheists to Afghanistan because their asylum applications did not have "sufficient cause to be granted asylum".

     The bar has been set almost impossibly high by racists, and the discourse is rather about ending the right of seeking asylum altogether.

     We can hope (and vote) for improvements, but I don't see that happening on a useful scale in the next few years.

   • Embed this notice
     Quinn Norton (quinn@social.circl.lu)'s status on Sunday, 24-Nov-2024 05:37:41 JST Quinn Norton

     in reply to

     • . stdh .

     @stdh but they also can't return americans facing a death penalty, and it might be pretty difficult to deport them for things that are just normal human rights in europe. they don't need to decide america is a bad country legally, but politically... that's a hot potato.

   • Embed this notice
     . stdh . (stdh@hostux.social)'s status on Sunday, 24-Nov-2024 05:37:43 JST . stdh .

     in reply to

     @quinn I have been wondering about that too a few years back, when I first heard of internal US displacement of transgender people feeling their state. Aside from the often impossibly high bar for an asylum claim to be 'credible', there's also the diplomatic implications. I think it would be hard for our EU governments to officially agree that the USA is a "bad country". Presumably they'd prefer to keep sucking up to the "leader of the free world", even when it's a fascist (wannabe) dictator.

   • Embed this notice
     Quinn Norton (quinn@social.circl.lu)'s status on Sunday, 24-Nov-2024 06:04:13 JST Quinn Norton

     in reply to

     • . stdh .

     @stdh oh yeah, that's true. a nurse nowadays can run the table for any country they like.

     but yeah, if, as was my example, a doctor who performed abortions managed to flee the country while wanted under charges that might carry the death penalty in the US, that would be quite the moment for Europe. But America isn't very far away from that.

   • Embed this notice
     . stdh . (stdh@hostux.social)'s status on Sunday, 24-Nov-2024 06:04:15 JST . stdh .

     in reply to

     @quinn That's true, about the death penalty. I think here in Belgium, you can only be extradited for things that are illegal here too. IIRC that's (partially) a judicial decision, as opposed to granting asylum. Would that a make a meaningful difference? I don't know. My guess is that our gov'ts would try to get the "useful" people like nurses and technologists, and get rid of the rest. It's all so cynical. ☠️

   • Embed this notice
     Quinn Norton (quinn@social.circl.lu)'s status on Sunday, 24-Nov-2024 06:49:43 JST Quinn Norton

     in reply to

     • . stdh .

     @stdh at least be thinking. I suspect like all refugees/seekers/hell immigrants in general, they'll be looking at place where they already have people, even if it's long distant cousins.

     ...or the first flight that takes off before the cops can catch them, either way. a lot of this is probably going to go Canada's way too. They *really* need to be building so much housing.

   • Embed this notice
     . stdh . (stdh@hostux.social)'s status on Sunday, 24-Nov-2024 06:49:45 JST . stdh .

     in reply to

     @quinn Oh, right, then it all comes together.

     Also, there would be large differences between European countries. I don't suppose that's very visible from the US, but presumably the Belgian government would handle that very differently from, say, Hungary's.

     There are support networks here for refugees, with experience in very different situations and countries of origin. I suppose they are included in the Europeans you mentioned which should start preparing?