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   ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:07:11 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт
   I guess Linux distros are doubling down on Wayland. RIP Linux 2024 you were something great and now you've downgraded to being a broken toy that devs don't want to touch with a ten foot pole. Great job nerds!
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     ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: (dcc@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:07:03 JST ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware:

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     @charlie_root @PalePimp @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler It's honestly quite simple, os's ars not tool's but frameworks. For gayming, content creation, editing is not uses at all nor wanted to be used by these people. It's not a "bad thing" per say but therw needs to be people for support for it to be warranted.
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:07:04 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @PalePimp @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler
     
     I'm actually someone who spent years and years dogfooding Linux and BSD. While the privacy and customization benefits are not deniable, you guys literally have stockholm syndrome. I don't mean to be rude but being Linux only in today's world is like riding a bike on the street with cars, they are just going to run you over while you are over here bragging about your carbon frame and squeaky horn.
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:07:05 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler
     
     Outside of the server space (no denying that Linux makes for great web servers) I'm not seeing anybody accomplish anything with desktop Linux. Most people that I know that main Linux only are in a constant spiral of customizing, reinstalling and fixing their setup while creating or producing nothing. I only know of 2 successful YouTube channels where the creator mains Linux and it's literally them turning on an expensive camera and talking which is not impressive.
     
     A producer streamer that I follow summed it up the best, "people come to me and say look I got X, Y and Z working in Linux, yeah it took you a week and I got a track produced and 3 videos and a livestream finished in that time."
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     PalePimp (palepimp@poa.st)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:07:05 JST PalePimp

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     @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler Using Linux exclusively since 2011, it works, it is stable and you can produce any stuff with it if you are willing to learn how to.
     
     You need to get into the mindset that you'll have to learn to fix Linux issues, and stop thinking Linux is a 1:1 replacement for Windows. It is its own thing. You're accustomed to fix Windows problems so you do not consider them problems anymore. Same goes for everything.
     
     Adjust your expectations, learn what components give you the functionality you want (IE: need smb support on my file browser I need to install GVFS, etc.) And more importantly, learn the fact that not all hardware is Linux compatible, if a $5 WIFI adaptor is not supported by the standard kernel drivers, put it in the bin and buy one that does. Same goes for everything else. You might think that is bad or retarded and that it costs money, but that is how the world works, you do not complain when you find software in a Mac that only works with Apple hardware and vice-versa don't you?
     
     Learn to backup your system when it works (Trivial on Linux) and it is dead easy to recover from any situation, Linux can always be repaired. I haven't reinstalled a single machine at least since 2019, I just keep restoring the latest backup when I change hardware.
     
     And more importantly you need to accept its limitations, when you replace Windows you aren't replacing Windows alone, you're replacing an entire ecosystem.
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     Goalkeeper (goalkeeper@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:07:06 JST Goalkeeper

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     Yes and no. Honestly tech has become so dumbed down I'd rather the barrier to entry be a little higher if I have to do a little extra work.

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     Goalkeeper (goalkeeper@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:07:07 JST Goalkeeper

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     Although I am currently on windows because i need VMware support. (virtualbox is ass)

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     Tyler (tyler@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:07:07 JST Tyler

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     Just run VMware through wine :HazeSmug:
     
     Or be a man and use xen hypervisor with kvm support :gurasmug2:
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:07:07 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @tyler @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer
     
     Doesn't the fact that you have to do all this to have a normal, productive computing experience tell you that shit is really bad??
     
     Why should the average person put up with that? It sounds like I need to do alchemical spells to get work done on a Linux system, it's infuriating..
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:07:08 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler
     
     Without wine desktop Linux would be as relevant as FreeBSD.
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     Goalkeeper (goalkeeper@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:07:08 JST Goalkeeper

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     The funny thing is, a lot of games run better in an emulated environment because of how bloated Windows has become.

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     Goalkeeper (goalkeeper@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:07:09 JST Goalkeeper

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     It's a hell of a lot easier to do now than it was. Most titles will run fine if not better with minimal troubleshooting.

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     Observer/Noticer (volkish_observer@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:07:10 JST Observer/Noticer

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     The MS AI push has me seriously considering switching to linux.

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     Tyler (tyler@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:07:10 JST Tyler

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     I've been running it consistently for over 10 years, it's perfectly fine for 99.5% of what most people want to do.
     
     That 0.5% you can work around or find alternative solutions.
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     Observer/Noticer (volkish_observer@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:07:10 JST Observer/Noticer

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     The one doubt I have is gaming. It's a meme but Windows just works in that regard, solely because of its large user base.

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     Goalkeeper (goalkeeper@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:07:11 JST Goalkeeper

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     Not curating FOSS developers was the death knell.

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     Goalkeeper (goalkeeper@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:07:11 JST Goalkeeper

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     My one hope is windows becoming so bad that real developers are left with no choice but to roll up their sleeves and make linux great.

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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:14:17 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @dcc @Goalkeeper @PalePimp @Volkish_Observer @tyler
     
     I'm not denying that people can make content, art, music, etc with Linux. My problem with the Linux community at large is the constant reinventing of the wheel and the rampant activism which is making Linux go backwards to nerd goo code hell when it was on track to being something special.
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     ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: (dcc@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:14:17 JST ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware:

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     @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @PalePimp @Volkish_Observer @tyler The reinvent part comes from that fact that people want to "make it easier" (related to what i just talked about) but doing so is just making a shitty operating system. This is also a issue with linux being just a kernel and not a full os.
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:16:20 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @dcc @Goalkeeper @PalePimp @Volkish_Observer @tyler
     
     I think the breakdown in my frustration happened long ago when the Arch Linux install process began to become unrecognizable after a couple of years. Also at what point do people start putting a value on their free time vs "just trust me bro and follow this lengthy github guide to get your trivial feature working that was working out of the box years before".
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     ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: (dcc@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:24:44 JST ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware:

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     @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @PalePimp @Volkish_Observer @tyler The lesson here should be do thing's the right way and not the "new" way.
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:24:45 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @Goalkeeper @PalePimp @Volkish_Observer @dcc @tyler
     
     TL:DR I got sick of constantly sinking time into getting what should be normal standard things working properly. I want to have a life. I love old Linux for having basically solved that problem but I hate new wave Linux for trying to reintroduce it.
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:25:47 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @dcc @Goalkeeper @PalePimp @Volkish_Observer @tyler
     
     This is why I totally understand your commitment to Slackware, super fucking based I appreciate now more than ever!
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     ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: (dcc@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:29:08 JST ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware:

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     @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @PalePimp @Volkish_Observer @tyler Hopefully when i get my "new" graphics card i can try dragonfly bsd, and see if pci pass though works. Just running windoze through a kvm is the easiest thing to do.
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:30:31 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @dcc @Goalkeeper @PalePimp @Volkish_Observer @tyler
     
     If you can get Mixxx running you will be the goat 🐐
     
     You could even do a classic rock mixxx.
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     ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: (dcc@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:32:25 JST ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware:

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     @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @PalePimp @Volkish_Observer @tyler Yea i has dports, so i'll tell you if it works. The only real problem with bsd's is really that they are not linux. Linux not being a fully unix compliant os is a pain for other unix like os's.
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:39:23 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @gvs @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @PalePimp
     
     So the crux of the convo is desktop Linux and what are you accomplishing with it. So I'm coming more from a content creator perspective. Not gamer/webdev which is usually the haunting ground of Linux diehards. Remove wine and the web browser and what do you really have??
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     ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: (dcc@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:39:23 JST ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware:

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     @charlie_root @gvs @Goalkeeper @PalePimp @Volkish_Observer @tyler
     operatingsystem.mp4
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     gvs (gvs@rebelbase.site)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:39:25 JST gvs

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     How so? I've been using Linux since 1997 and it has never been easier now that most technology evolved to work in browser. There aren't many things I cannot do on Linux without jumping through any hoops. In fact, most of my kids had never used Windows befor they where required to in school.
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     ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: (dcc@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:44:57 JST ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware:

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     @PalePimp @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler >pipewire
     >network manager
     :alex_lol: I meam you just shot your own point in the foot. Linux its self is a meh os, other os's are better but its still the third most popular (and open source) so people compromise
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     PalePimp (palepimp@poa.st)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:44:58 JST PalePimp

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     @charlie_root @dcc @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler I used to get upset a lot with changes to some components and procedures, until I started to read the rationale behind some of these changes.
     
     Generally most of these wheel reinvention efforts are for good reasons (except Gnome, they are the spawn of satan)
     
     What is a problem is that sometimes the implementation (*waylan... cough cough) is garbage or wasn't thought properly when it comes to real world implementation and usage.
     
     Some times the implementation is close to being flawless (IE: pipewire replacing pulseaudio) or they have a weird start and turn out great NetworkManager.
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:51:30 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @gvs @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @PalePimp @dcc
     
     > X11 is ancient and it makes it hard to do modern things
     
     I'm calling cap on this. I could literally apply the same logic to the Linux kernel.
     86382968.gif
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     gvs (gvs@rebelbase.site)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:51:32 JST gvs

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     I agree about the purge of the Russian devs, though I think they had little choice since that is mandated by the government...
     I disagree about Wayland though. The technology behind X11 is ancient and it makes it hard to do modern things that MacOS can do, I think the slow rollout combined with compatibility layers is a good way to do a transition that does benefit users in the end.
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:51:33 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @gvs @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @PalePimp
     
     Also I was more ranting on the future of Linux (which I am worried about), Linux at one point was amazing and useful 100%. It's these modern design decisions like forced adoption of wayland and the pushing out of Russian, cis white men devs that I think is causing the OS to go backwards.
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     gvs (gvs@rebelbase.site)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:51:34 JST gvs

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     Sorry, I don't think you explained what you think you can't do with a modern Linux distribution. I haven't used wine in at least a decade, neither do any of my family. We all use native Linux apps AND the browser, much the same as on Windows.
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     ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: (dcc@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:52:27 JST ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware:

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     @charlie_root @gvs @Goalkeeper @PalePimp @Volkish_Observer @tyler Wayland being any better than x11 is false, and has no backing lol.
     wayland1.png
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:54:25 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @Goalkeeper
     
     They keep wanting to reinvent the wheel, meanwhile software devs that might make Linux ports are going to be pushed away because Linux will never land on any standard it will always be a moving target.
     
     Meanwhile Windows and Apple stay pretty consistent...
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:54:25 JST 翠星石

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     @charlie_root @Goalkeeper Total "FOSS" death!
     
     Linux is only a kernel, a proprietary one at that, that doesn't operate on its own.
     
     
     The Linux SYSCALL ABI has been mostly ABI compatible for 20+ years (support for old syscalls that nobody really uses anymore can be enabled or disabled with a .config option) and the API is stable.
     
     
     The ABI and API of macos and ios changes all the time, it's just that apple forces all the developers to port to the latest version, otherwise the software will stop working (they dropped 32 bit support years ago, forcing developers to port to 64bit for example).
     
     Very old windows software is known to break a LOT on newer versions, although microsoft is know for keeping around massive amount of cruft as that makes something things keep working (ReactOS or WINE is sometimes better at running old windows software than windows, not that you should do so).
     
     
     The GNUlibc (glibc) API has been pretty consistent, with just the addition of functions really - it's ABI is even forward compatible.
     
     GtK+, GtK2, GtK3, GtK4 and Qt software all work just fine on Xorg and wayland does support GtK+, GtK2 & GtK3 software via Xwayland.
     
     Linux doesn't follow any standards, but that really doesn't matter as long as it keeps its syscall API usable by glibc.
     
     GNU is mostly POSIX-compatible, meaning that if you have free software written for some POSIX-compatible OS, chances are it will compile and work with no or minor modifications, but really POSIX is treated as a suggestion; https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#Non_002dGNU-Standards
     
     Following any standard is much less important that keeping free software free mind you; https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#Legal-Issues
     
     
     The reason why there isn't much proprietary software on GNU/Linux doesn't have anything to do with "moving targets", as glibc and Qt have been around for decades - the reason is mostly due to developer incompetence (which is surprising considering getting software to compile and work on GNU/Linux is a breeze thanks GCC gcc, GNU make and GNU autools, unlike on windows, where it's actually only feasible to compile anything via windows ports of GCC and GNU make via MSYS2 or via "visual studio" (which has a bloated installer that is very likely to fail to actually install the damn thing)) and also library proprietary sabotage via proprietary windows-only libraries and databases, but that isn't a bad thing, as every proprietary program ported is yet another piece of temptation that soils the freedom.
     
     Really, I can grab decently written 20 year old software and compile it just fine on GNU/Linux-libre with only a few patches and good luck doing that on windows or macos.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:55:17 JST 翠星石

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     @Goalkeeper @charlie_root @Volkish_Observer @tyler WINE Is Not an Emulator.
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:55:50 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @dcc @Goalkeeper @PalePimp @Volkish_Observer @gvs @tyler
     
     I need the X11 vs wayland boat meme, that thing was perfect.
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     ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: (dcc@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:55:50 JST ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware:

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     @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @PalePimp @Volkish_Observer @gvs @tyler Don't have it lol
     Boss_its_been_9_years.mp4
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:58:10 JST 翠星石

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     @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler >2 successful YouTube channels where the creator mains Linux
     People who run GNU/Linux have no interest in churning out proprietary slop - they get real work done instead.
     
     If I wanted to churn out slop, I reckon I could edit 4 slop videos and a livestream in straight ffmpeg in a week, but why would I do that?
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     ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: (dcc@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:58:51 JST ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware:

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     @gvs @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @PalePimp >X11 is basically the same as it was 30 years
     Its not like its also had updates..... O WAIT.
     >but it cannot keep up with the possibilties of modern graphic cards making it laggy
     No thats just because most people have shitty hardware causing tearing....
     >sore regarding security,
     There is 0% more security with Wayland
     These are word for the same exact garage and fake points i always hear
     come_on_man.jpg
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     gvs (gvs@rebelbase.site)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:58:53 JST gvs

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     Yes and no. The Linux kernel evolved (and replaced systems that no longer aligned with modern hardware), X11 is basically the same as it was 30 years ago and that's not so much the problem but it cannot keep up with the possibilties of modern graphic cards making it laggy. Also, since I started on Linux in 1997, X11 had been a sore regarding security, Wayland's architecture is better in that respect to
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     PalePimp (palepimp@poa.st)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:59:42 JST PalePimp

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     @dcc @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler What you call an OS is a combination of programs, and last time I checked there aren't many alternatives with as many programs and hardware support as Linux.
     
     I'm open to suggestions.
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     ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: (dcc@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 19:59:42 JST ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware:

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     @PalePimp @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler Freebsd is the closest then, its also the only other os with nvidia support.
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:01:07 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @gvs @dcc @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @PalePimp
     
     > X11 had been a sore regarding security, Wayland's architecture is better in that respect to
     
     LOL dcc he doesn't know smdh....
     
     https://github.com/Aishou/wayland-keylogger
     
     Unless this has been fixed and obsoleted, I haven't found a keylogger with a commit less than 2 years ago.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:01:54 JST 翠星石

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     @charlie_root @Goalkeeper >Get out of here, you're just a fringe lunatic when it comes to computing.
     >Poster on the federated network that was only possible due to GNU Social.
     >Saying that I need to get out of here and I'm the lunatic.
     
     >99% of your arguments sound like Scientology to the average person...
     Unlike Scientology, my arguments are correct.
     
     >the GNU crowd is super fringe in the world of tech.
     If GNU was so fringe, how come GNU software gets used absolutely everywhere?
     https://www.gnu.org/software/
     
     Sure it's popular to cover up even the mention of GNU, by referring to it as "Linux", so people don't learn of its existence and consider it to be something fringe.
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:01:55 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @Suiseiseki @Goalkeeper
     
     Get out of here, you're just a fringe lunatic when it comes to computing.
     
     99% of your arguments sound like Scientology to the average person...
     
     I'm not being mean or flippant, the GNU crowd is super fringe in the world of tech.
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:03:25 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @Suiseiseki @Goalkeeper
     tumblr_oiwsmfF0KZ1qk8rzpo8_400-3965021130.gif
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     Zergling_man (zergling_man@sacred.harpy.faith)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:03:34 JST Zergling_man

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     @PalePimp @tyler @Volkish_Observer @Goalkeeper @dcc @charlie_root >What you call an OS is a combination of programs
     [rms intensifies]
     @Suiseiseki I assume you're already elsewhere in this thread though
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:04:31 JST 翠星石

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     @gvs @charlie_root @dcc @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @PalePimp >The Linux kernel
     What is Linux if not a kernel?
     
     >it cannot keep up with the possibilties of modern graphic cards making it laggy.
     You shouldn't use modern graphics cards as they don't respect your freedom.
     
     wayland has forced vsync, which makes it laggy compared to Xorg on freedom-respecting GPUs.
     
     >X11 had been a sore regarding security
     Free software programs being able to access my key and mouse inputs when I want them to is not a security flaw.
     
     What is a security flaw is running proprietary malware on your computer.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:10:25 JST 翠星石

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     @PalePimp @charlie_root @dcc @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler >What you call an OS is a combination of programs, and last time I checked there aren't many alternatives with as many programs and hardware support as Linux.
     An OS is a system of software that allows you to operate a computer.
     
     Linux is NOT an OS as it does NOT operate on its own; https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/init/main.c#n1525
     To explain the C in English, when Linux boots up, it looks for an init (i.e. systemd), or finally a shell and if it can't find either it panics and shuts down.
     
     That init in turn launches the rest of the software that the computer needs to work.
     
     
     Linux does contain a lot of drivers for hardware, although there are many drivers that run in userspace.
     
     
     Very few programs are written to interface against Linux's SYSCALL API, programs usually interface with a libc like glibc instead.
     
     The program support is composed of core GNU libraries, as well as many other libraries built on top of GNU.
     
     As a result, programs tend to work just as well when compiled on GNU/Linux or GNU/Hurd.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:13:00 JST 翠星石

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     @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @PalePimp @gvs >Remove wine and the web browser and what do you really have??
     You have all the free software available for GNU, which is much more than what windows or macos have to offer;
     https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Main_Page
     https://packages.debian.org/stable/allpackages
     (Both lists are even incomplete and unfortunately the debian list is soiled with some nonfree software).
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     ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: (dcc@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:14:06 JST ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware:

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     @gvs @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @PalePimp >I am talking about X11 the protocol, not Xorg the implementation of it.
     :alex_lol: And?
     >You keeping hearing the same points because they are true.
     "If people are saying it, it must be true" :mel_laugh:
     > I'm curious where you got the proof that it was (and is) faster then those or Wayland.
     What are you even trying to say here.
     >Your counter argument also consists of 0 facts, just jpgs and gifs.
     Because you have nothing, you have proven nothing.
     big_harrty_laugh.gif
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     gvs (gvs@rebelbase.site)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:14:08 JST gvs

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     I am talking about X11 the protocol, not Xorg the implementation of it.
     You keeping hearing the same points because they are true. X11 has never been ahead of Windows nor Mac in performance. I'm curious where you got the proof that it was (and is) faster then those or Wayland. Your counter argument also consists of 0 facts, just jpgs and gifs.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:18:31 JST 翠星石

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     @gvs @charlie_root @dcc @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @PalePimp >X11 has never been ahead of Windows nor Mac in performance.
     I'm not sure what you're doing comparing OS's to a display protocol.
     
     Xorg is simply fast enough not to slow the user down, so no-one has really bothered to optimize it.
     
     Some users don't even bother with Xorg and just use the Church of Emacs in fbcon, which is much faster than any display protocol implementation or windowing toolkit.
     
     >I'm curious where you got the proof that it was (and is) faster then those or Wayland.
     Personal experience - I can tell the difference between the added latency of vsync and unfettered frames.
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     PalePimp (palepimp@poa.st)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:21:09 JST PalePimp

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     @dcc @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @gvs > I'm curious where you got the proof that it was (and is) faster then those or Wayland.
     
     Ask any FPS gamer, they will tell you wayland has much lower noticeable input latency.
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     ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: (dcc@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:21:09 JST ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware:

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     @PalePimp @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @gvs
     >wayland has much lower noticeable input latency.
     As a "gaymer" this is false as shit. V sync noticeable increases latency...... and on wayshit you can't turn it off...
     fucking_amatures.png
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     ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: (dcc@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:23:20 JST ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware:

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     @gvs @charlie_root @Suiseiseki @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @PalePimp >It has noticeable latency
     No? give me a video rn of someone using a real latency tester to prove such stupidity.
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     gvs (gvs@rebelbase.site)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:23:21 JST gvs

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     > I'm not sure what you're doing comparing OS's to a display protocol.
     Because each of these OS's has their own graphics layer... Mac basically is modified FreeBSD with a custom graphical stack and desktop. Parts of those OS's compare to X11
     
     > Xorg is simply fast enough not to slow the user down
     
     Is a bad argument. It has noticeable latency and for some applications or graphical effects, that matters.
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     ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: (dcc@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:26:36 JST ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware:

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     @gvs @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @PalePimp >like fractional scaling
     But xorg has it to....
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     gvs (gvs@rebelbase.site)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:26:37 JST gvs

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     And supports things like fractional scaling. Which is another thing that we didn't so much need 30 years ago. My 32inch curved 4K monitor is not fine with the same settings as a full HD panel on the connected laptop.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:26:37 JST 翠星石

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     @PalePimp @charlie_root @dcc @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler >while what you say is true, what you are engaging on is called pedantry.
     It isn't pedantry to point out that calling something by a incorrect name is totally incorrect.
     
     >as much as I respect and admire Stallman
     You clearly do not respect and admire him if you carry out the high insult of referring to GNU as "Linux".
     
     >imperfect human beings refer to operating systems based on the Linux kernel.
     Such sort refers to things that don't even have Linux in it as "Linux" - it's a buzzword, that you shouldn't mindlessly repeat.
     
     For example "WSL1" was GNU/kWindows, without Linux, but of course people called that "Linux".
     
     Cygwin and MSYS2 are ports of GNU software and other free software to windows without Linux, but people call that "Linux".
     
     People even refer to installing GNU software on Android via Termux as "installing Linux".
     
     If you want to stress that Linux is only a kernel, please do not imply it is an OS by writing "the Linux kernel" - you should write; "the kernel, Linux", or "Linux, the kernel" or just Linux.
     
     
     If people who know better started to refer to Linux as Linux, the current massive confusion would dissipate, but of course not.
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     PalePimp (palepimp@poa.st)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:26:38 JST PalePimp

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     @Suiseiseki @charlie_root @dcc @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler Listen while what you say is true, what you are engaging on is called pedantry.
     
     We're not discussing an OS at the low level detail implementations but as a platform and "Linux" as much as I respect and admire Stallman is how imperfect human beings refer to operating systems based on the Linux kernel.
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     white_male (white_male@poa.st)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:26:47 JST white_male

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     @HonkHonkBoom @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler >getting it to do the things you want it to do
     I don't remember when that happened last time to me.
     >with windows you're trying to stop it from doing things you don't want
     Every single time.
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:26:47 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @white_male @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @HonkHonkBoom
     
     My biggest thing with Windows is that it chooses maintenance during times I'm working and thats annoying. Like why are you doing a random malware check or update while I'm rendering or doing something important. If W11 has the ability to fine tune that I'm all ears on upgrading.
     
     Also I caught it corrupting a disk that has important backups. I forced it to fix its own error but no lie, the drive was only connected to Windows for months and hasn't been unmounted often.
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     white_male (white_male@poa.st)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:26:48 JST white_male

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     @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler Liek you're not debloating windows after every other upgrade.
     Driver packages like graphics are commonly as problematic to troubleshoot as anything you do in Linux.
     Compatibility modes for some applications are shit too.
     Windows got so bogged and Linux got so streamlined, they're basically the same in terms of effort. The only hurdle is familiarity.
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     HonkHonkBoom (honkhonkboom@poa.st)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:26:48 JST HonkHonkBoom

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     @white_male @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler Biggest difference is with windows you're trying to stop it from doing things you don't want, while with linux, the struggle is more about getting it to do the things you want it to do... at least on the linux side everything generates logs, so you can actually find out why it didn't work and get closer to a solution.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:29:22 JST 翠星石

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     @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @PalePimp @gvs >Mixxx, kdenlive, gimp, firefox, VLC, all killing it for Windows ports not gonna lie.
     Yes, those ports do work and they do give windows used a taste of freedom, although they are inferior to the GNU/Linux versions.
     
     If you came to freedom, you would be able to use the superior versions.
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:29:23 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @Suiseiseki @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @PalePimp @gvs
     
     But I use free software on Windows and it works great. Mixxx, kdenlive, gimp, firefox, VLC, all killing it for Windows ports not gonna lie.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:30:43 JST 翠星石

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     @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @HonkHonkBoom @white_male >If W11 has the ability to fine tune that I'm all ears on upgrading.
     windows 11 is tuned to disobey the user even more, thus installing it would be a downgrade.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:35:20 JST 翠星石

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     @PalePimp @charlie_root @dcc @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @gvs >X.org keeping both my monitors at 60hz because it doesn't support monitors with different refresh rates.
     It does just fine as long as you use a freedom-respecting GPU?
     
     I'm using a 60Hz and a 120Hz monitor right now with Xorg, both with different resolutions too.
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     PalePimp (palepimp@poa.st)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:35:21 JST PalePimp

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     @Suiseiseki @charlie_root @dcc @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @gvs >>Personal experience - I can tell the difference between the added latency of vsync and unfettered frames.
     
     I have had to contend for years with X.org keeping both my monitors at 60hz because it doesn't support monitors with different refresh rates.
     
     I'm still on X.org, my old 60hz monitor died and replaced it with another 120hz, that is how I fixed the problem.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:41:11 JST 翠星石

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     @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @HonkHonkBoom @white_male >the inevitable massive time sink of getting the setup just right and functional only to have it get wrecked by updates and constant changes.
     Getting a setup just right if you're not happy with the defaults takes a while on any OS.
     
     You have the freedom to simply not install updates or changes to certain programs and libraries and then the setup will continue to work exactly the same for years.
     
     My .emacs config hasn't ever gotten wrecked despite the updates to the Emacs OS.
     
     xfce4 or i3 or Mate are all DE's that don't get constant changes, although updates sometimes break some parts of xfce4 (that you can simply not install), but the regressions are eventually fixed.
     
     You probably want to just avoid libraries or desktop environments that have constant changes made.
     
     >I guess most if not all computer users experience this on some level.
     Yes, although windows and macos users experience such far harder than GNU users do.
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:41:12 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @Suiseiseki @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @HonkHonkBoom @white_male
     
     Hey I'm open to returning to Linux, I just have some issues detailed in the thread. Primarily being the inevitable massive time sink of getting the setup just right and functional only to have it get wrecked by updates and constant changes. I guess most if not all computer users experience this on some level.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:44:09 JST 翠星石

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     @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @HonkHonkBoom @white_male The main problem with audio production seems to be crappy hardware that only has a proprietary windows or macos driver, rather than any defect in GNU/Linux.
     
     I've looked at Ardour, LMMS and Tenacity and they do work, although they're not exactly like proprietary music production software.
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     white_male (white_male@poa.st)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:44:10 JST white_male

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     @charlie_root @Suiseiseki @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @HonkHonkBoom >the inevitable massive time sink of getting the setup just right and functional
     Choose a non intrusive, non rolling distro. My three oldest workstations and laptops run xubuntu 20.04 and i barely can tell the difference functionally between newer 22.04 or 24.04.
     
     What are you doing that's requiring this massive tweaking investement by the way?
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:44:10 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @white_male @Suiseiseki @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @HonkHonkBoom
     
     Audio production.
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     ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: (dcc@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:44:17 JST ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware:

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     @PalePimp @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @gvs >is anecdotal.
     You don't understand ho display tech works then
     ...
     :alex_lol:
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     PalePimp (palepimp@poa.st)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:44:18 JST PalePimp

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     @dcc @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @gvs Most people care about the most is input latency, the fact that removing vsync on Windows improves input latency is anecdotal.
     
     I was as surprised as you.
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     ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: (dcc@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:46:51 JST ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware:

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     @PalePimp @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @gvs This conversation is bones, i'd recommended taking the L and talking about something else :dude_smug:
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     PalePimp (palepimp@poa.st)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:46:52 JST PalePimp

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     @dcc @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @gvs Now you are going to tell me the USB bus is bound to the refresh rate. 🤦
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:48:04 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @dcc @PalePimp @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @gvs @tyler
     
     Video that inspired this discussion for context.
     
     TL:DR I don't hate Linux, I use it daily in some form or fashion I just don't like the direction and design choices its taking. We can only use Kernel 5.15 and a glacier distro for so long before we experience the pivot.
     
     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzEWvNUCsN4&t=1s
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:55:48 JST 翠星石

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     @PalePimp @charlie_root @dcc @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler Yes, *minor details*.
     
     A totally incorrect name that leads an unsuspecting user to the road to proprietary hell without even mentioning the GNU/Road to freedom is a major detail.
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     PalePimp (palepimp@poa.st)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:55:49 JST PalePimp

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     @Suiseiseki @charlie_root @dcc @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 20:58:40 JST 翠星石

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     @charlie_root @dcc @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @PalePimp @gvs You are free to install whatever DE you want on any free distro.
     
     I'm running GNU Linux-libre 6.x-gnu and Xorg is working just as well as when I ran Linux-libre 5.15-gnu.
     
     On some distros, eventually using Xorg will require compiling a Xorg DE from source, but that really isn't that hard.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 21:00:43 JST 翠星石

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     @white_male @charlie_root @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @HonkHonkBoom You can only really get a proper production setup on GNU/Linux anyway, as you can tweak audio latency to be much lower with JACK configuration, plus you can actually get hardish realtime audio with PREEMPT_RT.
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     white_male (white_male@poa.st)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 21:00:44 JST white_male

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     @charlie_root @Suiseiseki @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @HonkHonkBoom Ok, what's the point of constant tweaking? Shouldn't you get a production setup and freeze it anyway? Are there massive updates coming in every week?
     
     Windows fucks that up on the regular with updates as far as i know, at least on the amateur-semipro streamer side.
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 21:02:10 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @Suiseiseki @dcc @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @PalePimp @gvs
     
     > On some distros, eventually using Xorg will require compiling a Xorg DE from source, but that really isn't that hard.
     
     The fact that you don't consider that this is batshit insane is commendable. This is peak Stockholm syndrome and 100% validates all my points in this thread...
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 21:07:04 JST 翠星石

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     @charlie_root @dcc @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @PalePimp @gvs >don't consider this batshit insane
     I don't see how it is batshit insane to use a computer properly by using it to compile software.
     
     If the software is any good, compiling and installing it is as trivial as;
     ./configure <build flags, or just go with the defaults>
     make -j$(nproc)
     sudo make install
     
     If libraries are missing, configure will tell you what's missing and then you just install the missing libraries.
     
     It's very easy on Gentoo-libre, as a fair amount of software is packaged and even if it isn't packaged, you just grab the source, install any libraries via emerge and then compile it.
     
     Sometimes packages sadly use buildsystems instead of GNU autools, but it's usually not that much harder really;
     mkdir build
     cd build
     cmake ..
     make -j$(nproc)
     sudo make install
     
     
     You probably shouldn't use computers if you are unable to do something as trivial as compile software that is already written.
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 21:11:45 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @Suiseiseki @dcc @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @PalePimp @gvs
     
     That's wild bro...
     
     So let me get this straight, you are telling people that in order to deal with developer shortcomings they need to become micro-developers themselves. Fuck even spending time on the projects they were trying to get done or progress in the first place, get the fuck out lmao!!
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 21:18:00 JST 翠星石

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     @charlie_root @dcc @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @PalePimp @gvs >they need to become micro-developers themselves.
     Compiling software is not software development, as you are not programming anything.
     
     >even spending time on the projects they were trying to get done or progress in the first place
     You run the command, go back to working on whatever projects and come back later when it's finished compiling.
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 21:23:33 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @Suiseiseki @dcc @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @PalePimp @gvs
     
     > You run the command, go back to working on whatever projects and come back later when it's finished compiling.
     
     That's bullshit and you know it.
     giphy-3706569906.gif
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 21:23:34 JST 翠星石

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     @charlie_root @dcc @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @PalePimp @gvs It is not development work to merely install software.
     
     The compilation process doesn't have anything to do with Linux - you use GNU bash, GNU make, GCC, GNU ld, glibc and GNU autotools.
     
     Usually someone does compile binaries anyway and you can install those.
     
     I intentionally avoid binaries, as they tend to either have everything enabled, or nothing enabled.
     
     
     Windows is no different when it comes to compiling - someone needs to do it and good luck getting anything to compile on windows without spending hours.
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     PalePimp (palepimp@poa.st)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 21:23:35 JST PalePimp

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     @charlie_root @dcc @Suiseiseki @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @gvs Used to think like that, until you haven't been in the situation where rebuilding a package/app can save your ass.
     
     I'm not implying compiling shit is right for everybody (Again go use Windows if it works better for you, nothing wrong with that) I'm saying it is a useful thing to have, and whether you like it or not building an app is part of the Unix-like/based/inspired OSes. You are free to dislike it.
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     ¢нαяℓιє яσσт (charlie_root@annihilation.social)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 21:23:35 JST ¢нαяℓιє яσσт

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     @PalePimp @dcc @Suiseiseki @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @gvs
     
     I know how to compile, I have custom software that I compiled myself. I just think expecting the average user to do all this extra dev work to get a normal experience is completely in the "lost the plot" territory. Once again Linux drifts toward the fringe...
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 21:24:27 JST 翠星石

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     @charlie_root @dcc @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @PalePimp @gvs Works on my machine - emerge -av <package> even runs ./configure and make etc automatically for me.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 21:30:03 JST 翠星石

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     @PalePimp @charlie_root @dcc @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @gvs Even a "regular user" will soon find themselves getting things done in GNU bash and compiling software if they make any effort to use the computer effectively.
     
     The main issue with Ubuntu or Mint or PopOS is that they're not freedom friendly - they install proprietary software without asking and have the bad habit of splitting libraries into badly named -dev versions, to save 5KiB of header files or something.
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     PalePimp (palepimp@poa.st)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 21:30:04 JST PalePimp

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     @charlie_root @dcc @Suiseiseki @Goalkeeper @Volkish_Observer @tyler @gvs This is a pointless discussion, a regular user would be using a friendlier distro like Ubuntu or Mint or Pop_OS! and use whatever software packages the distro provides, exactly like on Windows or MacOS, a regular user will never deploy his OS from scratch in a command line terminal building something like X or the DE from source and then write the configuration himself.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 18-Nov-2024 22:55:23 JST 翠星石

     in reply to

     • Goalkeeper
     @Goalkeeper @charlie_root >real developers are left with no choice but to roll up their sleeves and make linux great.
     People have already rolled up their sleeves and made Linux great by removing the proprietary software; https://gnu.org/software/linux-libre
     
     Meanwhile, nothing compares to GNU software.