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   iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:06:41 JST iced depresso
   what if we intentionally made a fantasy slop MUD :neocat_floof_mug:
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:07:16 JST iced depresso

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     > we based it entirely on someone who doesn't play those games poorly remembering world of warcraft and anime from 20 years ago
     
     :ablobcatgooglytenor:
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     Sick Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:07:24 JST Sick Sun

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     @icedquinn some friends and I are slowly ramping up to make a MUD using a grab bag of buzzword technologies
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:08:20 JST iced depresso

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     • Sick Sun
     @sun terry wants me to use llama.
     
     i might do that for the slop game* but i don't think i would want to for the cyberpunk one.
     
     * which is probably more of an ADHD moment than something i should actually tr y to do
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     Sick Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:10:42 JST Sick Sun

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     @icedquinn I am going to experiment with spritely goblins/scheme as a base but I keep having false starts. I am not sure it's worth it tbh but like Urbit I want to take a chance on something weird to see if it's secretly wonderful
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:11:38 JST iced depresso

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     • Sick Sun
     @sun evennia is what people wish they could have used back in the day (but are stuck on lambda if they are lucky)
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     Sick Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:12:27 JST Sick Sun

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     @icedquinn my biggest weakness is I don't have a historical knowledge of all the MUD advancements so I'm definitely a tourist to the genre
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:12:43 JST iced depresso

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     • Sick Sun
     @sun honestly pulp fantasy would just be for the learning experience. practically every mud is already exactly high fantasy grindy as shit. then there is discworld which is all of those things (but actually highly well made.)
     
     cyberpunk life sims like. they don't exist. nobody's ever done it. not even graphically (there's nivalis but they're in an indefinite delay loop.)
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     Sick Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:13:21 JST Sick Sun

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     • Sick Sun
     @icedquinn I asked chatgpt to explain to me how MUDs have traditionally been built and it actually gave me a LOT of detail on implementation.
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:13:51 JST iced depresso

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     • Sick Sun
     @sun its really nothing. you shit text over a pipe, maybe pay attention to a couple telnet codes. the rest of the stuff is spiffy but optional (like MXP and MCCP are things you can negociate that says "its ok to shit html3 tags at me" or some sideband json data) but those are mostly for funny clients in the commercial games
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     Sick Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:14:08 JST Sick Sun

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     @icedquinn there are not enough RPGs set in dystopian future. I mean there are some but they are mostly same-ey
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     Sick Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:15:27 JST Sick Sun

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     @icedquinn I'll just ask you for info right now then if you have anything to share. I know simple ones just have strings for objects, and flags that are simple boolean or numeric variables. to what extent are MUDs object-oriented, where you actually define objects and interaction rules like in RDF or something
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:15:39 JST iced depresso

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     • Sick Sun
     @sun hellmoo (now samsara) was one of the few in an apocalypse setting, yeah. though i think they bungled some priorities.
     
     most of them are about typing k mob and going to bed. that's something about multiplayers i always wanted out of. like killing gangsters is a part of life but i always enjoyed the other shit more :bloboctopus:
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     Sick Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:18:50 JST Sick Sun

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     • Sick Sun
     @icedquinn I have been thinking a lot about programming a MUD by using Turtle or something to declaratively define objects, rooms, and with verbs you can use to interact with them that call an elixir function or something
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:21:42 JST iced depresso

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     • Sick Sun
     @sun
     > objects
     depends on the codebase.
     
     there is a clear distinction between a room, a player, and an object, generally. in the MUSH lineage it stays this way. there are some attributes and rules that exist in the "hardcode" (the C half) and then a bizzare and shitty functional scripting language (the "softcode") that can control room locks and some stuff. MUSH isn't really for games, its a glorified chatroom.
     
     MUX kind of the same but furries, and i think parts are coded in forth instead.
     
     LPMud and Lambda are full object oriented scripting languages. Though in Lambda the object is, literally, objects, as in you can pick them up and toss them off a bridge assuming you coded the verbs. Both of those basically don't 'have' hard code, the hard code is just the interpreter and the whole game is softcode. MOOs (because the engine was called LambdaMOO) tend to be pretty spiffy and nice.
     
     MUDs usually come from like, DikuMUD or CircleMUD. These are kinda shit. Most of the behavior is hardcode and theres some data files to make template monsters. They play very generic cause you have to edit the C to do anything and most people won't.
     
     evennia is python and uses django to persist objects, so you have a mixture of classical python objects and then in-game objects that get persisted.
     
     if you decide to do it yourself, the most annoying part i got stuck with is the command parser. MOO has a pretty silly syntax for it (there are certain words that break up propositions but those are coded in, which is why hellmoo gets very weird shit like 'switch lantern to on') this is basically having to know how to separate a query in to atoms and find which are verbs and on which objects.
     
     you get the 'fun' of armageddonmu, where 'drink bottle' resolves to drinking the bottle of bleach instead of the water bottle and then you die and have to spend another 800 hours grinding.
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:23:22 JST iced depresso

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     • Sick Sun
     @sun i dunno how easy it is to do verbs in evennia yet. in lambda they're weird because the parsers generic and verbs live with objects.
     
     it would probably be cleaner to do what CLOS does, define all the verbs in the game in one shot ('generic functions' but with NLP syntax) and then just implement them on the objects that use it, so you can avoid 'switch lantern to on'
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     of nothing (apropos@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:23:40 JST of nothing

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     • Sick Sun
     @sun @icedquinn a MUD on the BEAM machine is great fun, because it takes very little work to just never have to take the server down as you develop it.
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     Sick Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:24:16 JST Sick Sun

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     • of nothing
     @apropos @icedquinn I definitely can jump right in if I use Elixir, if I decide to use Guile I have a lot of prerequisite learning ahead of me before I even get to fun stuff
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:25:16 JST iced depresso

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     • Sick Sun
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     @apropos @sun someone did write a mud engine in elixir. i did not use it, though. i'm not sure how well it would work because there's lots of string parsing and mutable state which are both things BEAM hates.
     
     evennia has a proxy to hold the sockets and do ssl/compression/etc, so the backend reboots and aside from a world announcement nothing really stops
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     Sick Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:28:12 JST Sick Sun

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     • of nothing
     @icedquinn @apropos I have used this for parsing bot commands for 10grans tipbot rewrite:
     
     https://hexdocs.pm/nimble_parsec/NimbleParsec.html
     
     it is annoyingly verbose but it works.
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:28:14 JST iced depresso

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     • Sick Sun
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     @apropos @sun i'd like to have known erlang or something but i always kind of avoid using it. beam is weak in like literally every area, other than it just doesn't go down. :blobcatgooglynotlikethis:
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     Sick Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:29:49 JST Sick Sun

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     • of nothing
     @icedquinn @apropos I tried to implement a couple things in elixir that required a lot of mutable state and it was insanely annoying but at least you can write a NIF in Python or Rust really easily that you just call
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:31:26 JST iced depresso

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     • Sick Sun
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     @sun @apropos if you don't plan on handing out builder privileges, sure.
     
     lambda et all do it in a silly way because 1) they were made in the early 90s and 2) levels of code privileges could be doled out, like in lambda's actual original instance anyone could just make an object and slap verbs on it.
     
     you could finagle a little DSL for parsing if you don't plan on letting players or coders slap verbs on stuff adhoc. like i said, write a parser that consumes stuff like 'put <item> in <item>' and converts that to some action code, like a clos generic function, and then let individual object types implement the action code. its cleaner :blobcatdunno:
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     Sick Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:31:30 JST Sick Sun

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     • Sick Sun
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     @icedquinn @apropos the reason that spritely goblins seemed interesting is that it has a way to persist all your state automatically and you can time travel debug an entire constellation of remote servers
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     Sick Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:33:09 JST Sick Sun

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     • of nothing
     @icedquinn @apropos another thing I am looking at is, using llamacpp and taking natural language as input, and coercing output using ebnf grammar to module function calls that are then fed to a script parser
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     Sick Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:33:21 JST Sick Sun

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     • Sick Sun
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     @icedquinn @apropos this undoubtedly is a terrible idea but fun
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:33:44 JST iced depresso

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     • Sick Sun
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     @sun @apropos
     lets kagi up whatever this is :neocat_book:
     
     :what_cirno: blob you don't need cap theorem its a text game if you are very lucky you'll get a MAU of 30
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     Sick Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:34:44 JST Sick Sun

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     • of nothing
     @icedquinn @apropos its a library built on top of GNU Guile that manages objects and ACLs in a distributed network environment. One of the people involved is one of the primary ActivityPub authors
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:35:03 JST iced depresso

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     • Sick Sun
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     @sun @apropos as for matching objects idk. i didn't succeed in figuring that one out, but i suspect its one of those O(n^2) things where you have to iterate every object in a room and grade how much the text matches
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     Sick Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:36:25 JST Sick Sun

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     • of nothing
     @icedquinn @apropos with Nimble I could probably make somethign that takes natural language, turns it into RDF triples and applies them directly to function calls with the appropriate parameters
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     受不了包 (shibao@misskey.bubbletea.dev)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:37:52 JST 受不了包

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     • Sick Sun
     • of nothing

     @sun@shitposter.world @icedquinn@blob.cat @apropos@fsebugoutzone.org genserver has state management built into it tho

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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:38:18 JST iced depresso

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     • Sick Sun
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     @sun @apropos the object parser gets to do this fun shit
     
     > drink bottle
     
     - bottle of bleach
     - bottle of water
     - mastodon skin backpack
     - the forever dildo
     
     :neocat_sweat: which one of these things do i give to the drink verb
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     Sick Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:38:40 JST Sick Sun

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     • 受不了包
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     @shibao @icedquinn @apropos I had trouble finding something to persist state in a sane way, I wrote my own thing but it amounted to having to write the entire state document with every change, which sucks ass
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     Sick Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:39:06 JST Sick Sun

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     • of nothing
     @icedquinn @apropos :thonk: u are right
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     受不了包 (shibao@misskey.bubbletea.dev)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:39:49 JST 受不了包

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     • Sick Sun
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     @sun@shitposter.world @icedquinn@blob.cat @apropos@fsebugoutzone.org yeah basically for every genserver callback, you get the state, modify (overwrite) what you need and pass it back

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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:40:19 JST iced depresso

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     • 受不了包
     • Sick Sun
     • of nothing
     @sun @apropos @shibao yeah that's what we do.
     
     lambda it all lives in RAM between the times we dump it to disk. evennia lives on django, so they inherit python metaprogramming to deal with the persisting.
     
     in nim and lisps we'd use macros.
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     Sick Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:41:14 JST Sick Sun

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     • 受不了包
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     @shibao @icedquinn @apropos so uh, lets say you had an entire world of state, how do you handle volume
     
     is it logical to break up into more genservers, that seems stupid but
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:41:35 JST iced depresso

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     • 受不了包
     • Sick Sun
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     @sun @apropos @shibao i think the engine i saw used a new process per room
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     Sick Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:42:10 JST Sick Sun

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     • 受不了包
     • Sick Sun
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     @shibao @apropos @icedquinn I know that you break up state in an actual game by having linked together rooms but just more genereally I wonder what you do when your state gets big
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:42:52 JST iced depresso

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     • 受不了包
     • Sick Sun
     • of nothing
     @sun @apropos @shibao a 'big' mud is somewhere like 3,000 rooms with 30 active players so thats around what you should be bench testing for.
     
     there's one or two bigger ones like shangrila that runs 200 daily users on pennmush
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     Sick Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:42:53 JST Sick Sun

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     @icedquinn @apropos @shibao do you remember the name of it, I already wrote a bunch but I want to see what someone else has done
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     受不了包 (shibao@misskey.bubbletea.dev)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:43:01 JST 受不了包

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     • Sick Sun
     • of nothing

     @sun@shitposter.world @icedquinn@blob.cat @apropos@fsebugoutzone.org nah that's exactly how you'd do it! regions in a server world or whatever, you can basically construct your topography how you'd normally use entire machines in beam and then beam handles actually translating it to your machines seamlessly. if you have thousands of the same entity, might make sense to use an ecs like system tho

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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:43:55 JST iced depresso

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     • 受不了包
     • Sick Sun
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     @shibao @sun @apropos :blobcatthonkang: nobody has used an ECS in these. i think i read an evennia module that tried to let you bolt one on.
     
     it's a neat model i was going to start using it for GUIs before i burned out
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     Sick Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:44:05 JST Sick Sun

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     • 受不了包
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     @shibao @icedquinn @apropos I like that message passing is transactional so at least I can enforce updates between rooms as things move around in them
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     gentoobro (gentoobro@shitpost.cloud)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:44:23 JST gentoobro

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     • Sick Sun
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     Which will probably execute instantaneously even on an arduino. How many objects can you realistically have in a room?

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     Sick Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:44:59 JST Sick Sun

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     • of nothing
     @icedquinn @apropos this is just how I learn new things, by applying overwrought solution to mundane problem
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:45:20 JST iced depresso

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     • Sick Sun
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     • gentoobro
     @gentoobro @apropos @sun a few.
     
     but you're right lambda did it on single core x86 so i'm just a bad programmer :gutkato_fantomo:
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 10:51:46 JST iced depresso

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     • Sick Sun
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     • gentoobro
     @gentoobro @apropos @sun there's a few annoyances with it too. maybe i should fire up nim and tinker with that algorithm again idk.
     
     there's some silly bits like objects having nicknames (so it will say something like "a can of peach soda (a.k.a. can, soda)") and you'd probably want to bias it towards selecting full names over nicknames (since nicknames will be more ambiguous)
     
     theres also syntax for picking one of these in a multimatch. if you have 'bottle of gamer bathwater' and 'botanical garden' and you type 'get bot' it will go :blobcatdunno: so you end up having to type like, 'get 2.bot' or 'get the second bot'
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 11:02:09 JST iced depresso

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     • Sick Sun
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     • gentoobro
     @gentoobro @apropos @sun the parsers don't really prioritize by context, they just try to find what 'bot' means.
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     gentoobro (gentoobro@shitpost.cloud)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 11:02:10 JST gentoobro

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     • Sick Sun
     • of nothing

     I would try making a ranking system for potential matches, including context of the proposed action. For example, "get bot" would prefer the bottle over the garden because the bottle has the "gettable" flag and it's notably hard to pick up a botanical garden. Likewise, it's hard to dig in a bottle and it makes no sense to walk to the garden when you're already standing in it.

     As for the parser, try making a sliding window of 3 or 4 words to extract small noun clauses. Of course, I assume you're already using articles as a signal for nouns, and prepositions as a signal for noun or pronoun clauses. Words in between a preposition and a noun are likely adjectives too.

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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 11:04:01 JST iced depresso

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     • Sick Sun
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     • gentoobro
     @gentoobro @apropos @sun you probably could try to put some per-verb coefficient on objects but afaik nobody has. (ex. a 50% weight on 'drink' verbs for bleach)
     
     lambda was originally meant to be a social metaverse so they prioritized untrusted user scripting and adding verbs to stuff. shoving intelligence in to the parser makes the game less flexible so they didn't do it there.
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     gentoobro (gentoobro@shitpost.cloud)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 11:10:26 JST gentoobro

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     • Sick Sun
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     Inflexibility of engines is annoying. It's one of the major reasons to write your own games from scratch.

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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 11:10:26 JST iced depresso

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     • Sick Sun
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     • gentoobro
     @gentoobro @apropos @sun it makes sense in the context lambda was built as a social sandbox to run untrusted code.
     
     lpmuds tend to be pretty serious since its all written in pseudo-C (technically "LPC" which is just slightly different from Pike)
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     Sick Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 11:22:25 JST Sick Sun

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     • THOT POLICE
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     • gentoobro
     @s8n @icedquinn @apropos @gentoobro I don't make games I make engines lol
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     THOT POLICE (s8n@posting.lolicon.rocks)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 11:22:26 JST THOT POLICE

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     • Sick Sun
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     • gentoobro
     @icedquinn @apropos @gentoobro @sun it's 2024 there's unity and godot muds are 1994
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Sunday, 17-Nov-2024 11:26:31 JST iced depresso

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     • THOT POLICE
     • Sick Sun
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     • gentoobro
     @s8n @apropos @gentoobro @sun there's a websocket plugin to use godot to make clients for evennia games lmfao