Hrefna (DHC)
With respect to #ActivityPub:
Simply, having now seen more into the guts of the process and how it is managed both historically and today, and understanding how the w3c works, I have no faith in their ability to define a clear consensus way forward out of the current set of problems.
Not "no faith in <timeline>" but no faith in the ability to define a clear way forward here.
This doesn't mean that someone outside of w3c couldn't define a better way forward, even one using AP, but w3c won't.
Hrefna (DHC)
One way forward:
Someone defines a way forward within the FEP process. Not as in a static document, but builds a working group "chartered" by a FEP ( @smallcircles would appreciate this, I think).
But ultimately we're looking at needing a "AP2" and that is a fundamentally broken prospect looking at the w3c processes today. Even if they could produce such I have no faith that the problems are understood or that the right people would be in the room.
Hrefna (DHC)
Fundamentally though I think what is required is:
1. A working group
2. Chartered outside of the w3c
3. That does not work piecemeal
4. With a vision to move past AP and a willingness to break compatibility
Jenniferplusplus
@hrefna Yes. Exactly this. I would personally suggest that the best target to aim for, in compatibility terms, is "possible to develop incrementally, and relatively easy to extend from existing AP logic"
Hrefna (DHC)
@noah ATProto thinks so. Last I checked that’s where they wanted to standardize
Noah Kennedy
@hrefna i wonder if the ietf might be a better forum for this
rakoo
Goffi
@smallcircles @rakoo @hrefna Libervia (I'm the lead dev) is going far beyond IM with XMPP: https://libervia.org/ . See also my talk at Fosdem on this topic: https://archive.fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/xmpp_beyond_im/ #xmpp #libervia
just small circles 🕊
Indeed you are! 😃
My experience dates from a couple years back. And #Libervia still is a pioneer, right? There aren't many others going beyond IM.. that I'm aware of at least.
just small circles 🕊
Gotta say that XMPP looked attractive for a much broader set of use cases than IM. Everything neatly specified, streamlined standards process, etc. Yet no one in the ecosystem going beyond IM it seemed. And for a broad adoption we also need to get people on a broad adoption of XML again. I wouldn't mind, but yea..
The XEP Process itself and how things are organized around it are maybe nice for inspiration and/or adoption in a new protocol effort.
rakoo
Goffi
@smallcircles @rakoo @hrefna Nothing goes as far as Libervia, but Movim is doing (micro)blogging too, Audio/Video calls are getting popular again, and we see from time to time projects such as https://git.xmpp-it.net/sch/Rivista or https://ayllu-forge.org/ #Libervia #Movim #XMPP
just small circles 🕊
Ah yes, I know about #Ayllu and chatted with the dev. A very nice project. I did not look into the specifics of their XMPP implementation.
Ben Pate 🤘🏻
@hrefna I agree with you 100%
Do you see a path forward? FEPs?
Many here are so committed to “how things were” that it’s hard to talk about “how things could be”
I’ll happily sign on to something AP-adjacent (strict mode?) that lets us talk to Mastodon and Threads for now, and provides a richer overall UX among the implementers of the new protocol.
Any new group would have to be small, and filled with actual implementers, not industry reps and armchair architects.
silverpill
>filled with actual implementers
Oh yes, I would love to see that. Participants should also be required to communicate using the software they are developing.
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