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   SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 16:53:32 JST SuperDicq

   • Drew DeVault

   @drewdevault@fosstodon.org I'm very interested in putting more attention on politics and society at FOSDEM because I often feel like FOSDEM is a little too commercial and contains some "open-washing" sometimes.
   
   I do feel like a "society and politics" devroom might be a dangeorus move because it could easily turn into a shitshow, because I am aware that the most political members of the free software community are also immediately the most controversial ones.
   
   I'm definitely interested in seeing how something like this would be handled and where this will go. I could help organize it, but I've currently not got any specific ideas.

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   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 17:38:58 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     @finlaydag33k @SuperDicq the point *is* to talk about broader politics and their intersection with FOSS because it's important to discuss these things and involve them in our lives and our work specifically, well, because of you

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     Aroop Roelofs :verified: (finlaydag33k@social.linux.pizza)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 17:38:59 JST Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     in reply to

     • Drew DeVault

     @SuperDicq Topics about say, how we should adapt laws/policies to be more favourable towards FOSS (or less favourable towards restrictive, proprietary software) or solving issues that affects the common person (like making software more accessible, interoperability etc.) could be interesting...
     But it's highly likely it'll go towards things like gender politics, anti-government politics and alike instead, things that only affect people with a very specific view on things.
     Just the "typical politics" as main course with a side of software.

     It's honestly why I personally prefer to keep software and politics separate for the most part (unless, it affects the common person).

     @drewdevault

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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 17:50:22 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:
     • Drew DeVault

     @drewdevault@fosstodon.org @finlaydag33k@social.linux.pizza I think this is a good example about why a "politics and society" devroom would definitely need to have very clear and defined guidelines before you can start organizing speakers and talks.
     
     I'm very interesting in listening to what limits of scope and such you had in mind when it comes to these topics.

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     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 18:33:32 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     @finlaydag33k @SuperDicq people who aren't the "default" may have different experiences and challenges that deserve to be heard, even if it's uncomfortable to address. In your view this distracts from the "awesome" stuff but that's kind of messed up, maybe we'd have more awesome stuff if we took this perspective seriously

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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 18:33:32 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:
     • Drew DeVault

     @drewdevault@fosstodon.org @finlaydag33k@social.linux.pizza Even the question "Why even talk about this in the first place?" could be a talk in its own right.

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     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 18:33:33 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     @finlaydag33k @SuperDicq

     Well, there are a few things wrong with this sentiment. First of all, you wouldn't have to participate, so why object to what people want to discuss? Maybe these issues are more important to them than to you.

     Second, your sentiment comes from a place of privilege. Taking your example of gender issues as something you don't want to platform -- well, maybe gender issues are relevant to how other people experience the software community in a way that's not true for you.

   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 18:33:33 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     @finlaydag33k @SuperDicq maybe some people's experience of gender is involved in the process of building awesome stuff, either because their gender experience inspires them to build more awesome things (positive) or as a means of building community (positive) or because they experience discrimination on the basis of gender which prevents them from building awesome things (negative). Your sentiment benefits from being the "default" kind of person in this environment.

   • Embed this notice
     Aroop Roelofs :verified: (finlaydag33k@social.linux.pizza)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 18:33:34 JST Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     in reply to

     • Drew DeVault

     @drewdevault Well, what about me?
     Is it really that wrong of me to not want to talk about those kinds of politics everywhere?

     Don't get me wrong, I definitely feel like we should give everyone a place in the community regardless of age, gender, disabilities, ethnicity, socio-economic status etc. etc. without judgement.
     But when I attend a meetup about software, I want to have talks and discussions about software, not get a lecture about gender politics or how the government is a big baddie.

     I'm quite simple, I personally do not care much about whether you feel a certain gender, come from a certain background, miss a hand or anything of that matter.
     If you make awesome stuff, you make awesome stuff and I wanna discuss that awesome stuff.

     It's the same as when I go to a car meet, I just wanna talk about the cars people drive, burn some rubber and blow up some clutches together.

     @SuperDicq

   • Embed this notice
     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 18:52:07 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:
     • Drew DeVault

     @drewdevault@fosstodon.org @finlaydag33k@social.linux.pizza Personally I must say however that the topics that I would prefer to talk about in context to this hypothetical "politics and society" devroom would be more directly influential topics to the success of free software, such as:
     * Copyright reforms.
     * Full abolishment of patent law.
     * Effective legislation to remove or heavily restrict harmful (especially American) tech monopolies.
     * Legalizing sharing (piracy).
     * Making sure government money exclusively goes towards the development of free software and never proprietary software.
     
     
     And some examples of more society oriented topics I'm interested would be:
     * Safe and transparent implementations of e-voting.
     * Getting rid of our outdated flawed representative democracy system in favor of a more direct or liquid democracy.
     * The war on cash and privacy as a result.

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     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 19:49:25 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     @SuperDicq @finlaydag33k I think there is already quite a bit of room for these topics at FOSDEM, for example in the legal devroom. I'd like to make space specifically for *social* politics, and especially for politics in a form that is not tied up in state institutions (such as the politics of communities)

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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 19:49:25 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:
     • Drew DeVault

     @drewdevault@fosstodon.org @finlaydag33k@social.linux.pizza I don't think these topics are talked about enough at FOSDEM at all! I go to FOSDEM every year and most talks seem to be about individual projects and technical stuff, while that stuff is really cool and interesting too I feel like the topics I mentioned are not going deep enough.
     
     If you're only specifically talking about the politics of communities I do think that's important but that's not really what I'm interested in. I think if you call the devroom "politics and society" more people will make the assumption that I do about the topics.
     
     Maybe a better name for this devroom would then be something more along the lines of "diversity and inclusiveness" instead?

   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 19:56:46 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     @finlaydag33k @SuperDicq I think you have a reactionary understanding of privilege. Pointing it out is not a tool for silencing, but for contextualizing the discussion. Clarifying things like this is on-topic for the devroom I have in mind.

     Why the emphasis on centering the discussion on projects? Why not take a higher level discussion, such as on the community as a whole or subcultures within it?

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     Aroop Roelofs :verified: (finlaydag33k@social.linux.pizza)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 19:56:47 JST Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     in reply to

     • Drew DeVault

     @drewdevault Things like "I'm gender XYZ so I faced discrimination left, right and center, here is the project I made to proof that it was so" (yes, I've actually seen a talks like this on different events).
     Again, if it provides meaningful background to why someone made certain decisions in a project? Sure, so be it but the main focus should still be the project itself.
     Like, if someone struggled with mental health (eg. due to discrimination for being a certain gender) so they made an app where you can talk to people regarding the issues you have? That's totally fine by me as it provides a meaningful context to why the app came to be, but the app itself is the main focus.

     That's the thing I wanted to point out: Talks that involve controversial topics often (from personal experience, N=1) tend to focus more that controversial topic than the thing that was made.

     In the end, I want to just make awesome stuff together and at the end of the project say "it was a pleasure working with you", regardless of the political alignment of that person.

     And my apologies, it seemed like you were trying to silence me for having those different views by saying those things (especially because you said "specifically, well, because of you" and then later called me "privileged").
     I get silenced quite a bit for having different views.

     @SuperDicq

   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 19:56:48 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     @finlaydag33k @SuperDicq can you be clear on what kind of discussion qualifies as the sort of "gender politics" you don't want to see here?

     Also, asking you why you are objecting, or saying you're speaking from privilege, neither of these is "silencing you".

     You seem to be on the defensive. Let's cool off a bit, no one is attacking you here.

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     Aroop Roelofs :verified: (finlaydag33k@social.linux.pizza)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 19:56:50 JST Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     in reply to

     • Drew DeVault

     @drewdevault Someone's inspiration stemming from their gender experience, is different than gender politics themselves.
     I'm fine with people saying "hey, this was a problem I struggled with and it led me to make this awesome thing" but that's different from saying "you must do this and that!".
     I would definitely be interested in a slight background on what got someone to create something (as that can provide context on the decisions made while the awesome thing was made).
     However, the main focus should (in my opinion) still be the thing that was made, not the fact someone has a certain gender.

     Also, you seem to try to silence my opinions by saying "you wouldn't have to participate, so why object?" and "your sentiment comes from a place of privilege" (you don't know what I had to suffer through to get where I am now - and no, that's not trying to say that I've had it better or worse than someone else).
     Am I not allowed to say that *I* would rather not have those things?
     You asked whether there should be a "Society and Politics devroom", I just say that I see a high chance certain things happening that *I* would not want.
     I'm not forbidding FOSDEM from having it, I'm not saying people absolutely cannot talk about it it; I'm just giving *my* input saying that *I* wouldn't want those things and what *my* expectations of an event like FOSDEM are.

     Either way, I have given my input so there's that.
     Use it or ignore it, that's up to you.
     Enjoy!

     @SuperDicq

   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 19:59:28 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     @finlaydag33k @SuperDicq it's not a DEI room lol, especially given that "DEI" has become a dogwhistle for racists who are too chickenshit to say the N word in public

     One topic that I heard which would be on topic is "is it ethical to take donations from Google"

     It's a broader sense of politics, ethics, society, which isn't hyperfixated on legislation but a broader perspective which considers that politics and political action comes in many forms and is found in many places

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     Aroop Roelofs :verified: (finlaydag33k@social.linux.pizza)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 19:59:30 JST Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     in reply to

     • Drew DeVault

     @SuperDicq I mean, if it is called "diversity and inclusiveness", it would make it very clear what it would be about definitely so that could work.

     That way it does right what it says on the tin and people hopping in know exactly what they are signing up for.

     @drewdevault

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     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:00:45 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     @finlaydag33k @SuperDicq another proposal was on toxic interactions e.g. in github issues and its contribution to maintainer burnout

     Or an open discussion on the Linux kernel community and how it leads to the kind of toxic burnout we saw in the news recently, and how that might be fixed or prevented

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     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:00:53 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     @finlaydag33k @SuperDicq and yes there'd be space for people to talk about gender and such too if it's on topic but don't lash out at any program which could conceivably include the word gender

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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:04:35 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:
     • Drew DeVault

     @drewdevault@fosstodon.org @finlaydag33k@social.linux.pizza "Is it ethical to take donations from Google" sounds more like an invitation to a discussion than the name of a talk to be honest.

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     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:06:18 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     @SuperDicq @finlaydag33k correct. Much of this devroom will be organized in nontraditional formats like roundtables, debates, and communal discussions

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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:06:33 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:
     • Drew DeVault

     @drewdevault@fosstodon.org @finlaydag33k@social.linux.pizza Oh that makes sense then. So basically you're looking for a bunch of topics that we should have a discussion about like ethics and morals in the software world?

   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:12:00 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     @SuperDicq @finlaydag33k yep, and providing a moderated discussion with facilitators and structured debate in which these topics can be discussed constructively, taking inspiration from consensus decision-making procedures

     There's also room for traditional talks w/Q&A but I envision this as being a very participatory program

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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:13:58 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:
     • Drew DeVault

     @drewdevault@fosstodon.org @finlaydag33k@social.linux.pizza I do have a lingering feeling that even after all this time since the 2019 smear campaign discussions about Richard Stallman can not be avoided if you're organizing something like this.

   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:13:59 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     @SuperDicq @finlaydag33k and yeah even if someone wants to schedule something like "no one in FOSS understands my gender so let's sit down and figure it out together", I'm down to put that on the program.

   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:13:59 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     @SuperDicq @finlaydag33k I would love to have a session on reactionary politics in FOSS spaces, for another example

   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:19:57 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     @SuperDicq @finlaydag33k of course that topic would be carefully moderated and would focus on keeping it factual and respectful without leveling personal attacks and vitriol -- but the fact of the matter is that RMS is a problem

   • Embed this notice
     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:19:57 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:
     • Drew DeVault

     @drewdevault@fosstodon.org @finlaydag33k@social.linux.pizza The fact you immediately state "rms is a problem" I think I have some doubts about your ability to moderate discussion about this topic in an unbiased manner.

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     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:19:58 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     @SuperDicq @finlaydag33k RMS is a shitty person and talking about that is on-topic as far as I'm concerned. It's not a smear campaign if it's true.

     https://drewdevault.com/2023/11/25/2023-11-26-RMS-on-sex.html

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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:25:04 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:
     • Drew DeVault
     @drewdevault @SuperDicq @finlaydag33k Possible but pretty sure most people would only trust a moderator that's not known for having a strong opinion on the topic, which could have the immediate effect of being seen as an unfair moderator regardless of facts.
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     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:25:05 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     @SuperDicq @finlaydag33k I don't think that's true. First, because I would not necessarily be the moderator for this particular discussion, and might instead participate with an aim to justify my position under the facilitation of someone else; second, because I am perfectly capable of withdrawing my personal opinions and acting as a dispassionate moderator

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     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:25:42 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     @finlaydag33k @SuperDicq sometimes it's beneficial, and necessary, to talk about difficult subjects.

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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:25:43 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:
     • Drew DeVault

     @drewdevault@fosstodon.org @finlaydag33k@social.linux.pizza Everyone says they are capable of withdrawing their personal beliefs and feelings from a situation when necessary, but reality that rarely checks out.
     
     I personally think for debates like this we might need to find a moderator who stands outside of the free software community and does not know who rms is.

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     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:25:43 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     @finlaydag33k @SuperDicq why are you afraid of discussing controversial topics? Here you speak as if controversy is axiomatically undesirable.

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     Aroop Roelofs :verified: (finlaydag33k@social.linux.pizza)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:25:44 JST Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     in reply to

     • Drew DeVault

     @drewdevault Personally, I would be against holding these kinds of discussions on an event...
     They are just too controversial to make a "main thing" and I only see it affect the overall mood in a negative way.

     It's good that there would be moderating but personally, I'd just avoid those situations in general... Just way too risky imho.

     @SuperDicq

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     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:26:09 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     @lanodan @SuperDicq @finlaydag33k true. But anyway, I definitely would not plan on being the sole moderator for the whole devroom lol, it would be easy to step down for a particular discussion which I have a strong opinion about

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     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:30:51 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     @SuperDicq @finlaydag33k agreed.

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     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:30:51 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     @SuperDicq @finlaydag33k btw, any discussion on RMS, if it were tabled, would be less "let's dogpile on RMS" and more "can we agree that the allegations regarding RMS are true, and that the calls for him to step down or be removed are justified" (topic 1), and if a consensus is reached, "why did the calls to action fail, does this highlight structural problems with the FSF or FOSS generally, what are the long-term effects of this series of events, and what might we do differently" (topic 2)

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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:30:54 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:
     • Drew DeVault

     @drewdevault@fosstodon.org @finlaydag33k@social.linux.pizza I am not against discussing controversial topics and I personally hate the culture of avoiding things that are hard to talk about.
     
     I personally think I can be mature enough to not let the fact that I'm at a venue with people who have different opinions than me "ruin the mood", but not everyone is that mature so I do agree with the sentiment that is risky and has to be done carefully.

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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:38:16 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:
     • Drew DeVault

     @drewdevault@fosstodon.org @finlaydag33k@social.linux.pizza The way you ask those questions is already heavily biased, man.
     
     Instead of asking "Can we agree..", the question should just be "Are the allegations true and is his removal justified?"
     
     Especially the question "Why did the calls to action fail?" is very loaded. There were also plenty of calls to action to support the opposite side, these calls to action did not fail.
     
     "Are there any structural problems with the FSF?" is a fair and neutral question to ask however.

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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:45:54 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:
     • Drew DeVault

     @finlaydag33k@social.linux.pizza @drewdevault@fosstodon.org I have no doubt that it is possible to organize a moderated discussion or debate at the event itself.
     
     But I do think that when the recording of the sessions makes it way online (as all rooms are recorded at FOSDEM) that will result in a lot of shitflinging.

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     Aroop Roelofs :verified: (finlaydag33k@social.linux.pizza)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:45:55 JST Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     in reply to

     • Drew DeVault

     @drewdevault I'm not afraid of discussing them (I'm very much involved in very controversial debates), I just don't want an otherwise fun get together to get soured by these things.

     Imagine going to an event, excited to meet people and prepared for lots of fun...
     Then suddenly people left, right and center start shouting and crying because these kinds of discussions (I can almost guarantee you that what happens at the table, won't just stay at the table).
     I'm pretty sure that'd ruin the experience.
     At least, it would for me.

     @SuperDicq

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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:51:15 JST SuperDicq

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     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:
     • Drew DeVault

     @drewdevault@fosstodon.org @finlaydag33k@social.linux.pizza Good point, I guess bullshit online happens regardless on if it recordings are posted or not.

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     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 20:51:16 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Aroop Roelofs :verified:

     @SuperDicq @finlaydag33k we might request not to record select sessions if necessary, but on the whole I think that it won't cause any shitstorms and they'll mostly be contained to communities that are already populated by full-time seethes

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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 22:44:40 JST 翠星石

     in reply to
     @SuperDicq Something being commercial isn't a problem.
     
     Something being proprietary is a problem and damn "FOSDEM" advertises a lot of proprietary things.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 22:51:31 JST 翠星石

     in reply to
     @SuperDicq >Safe and transparent implementations of e-voting.
     Safe voting with proprietary computers is impossible.
     
     Voting needs to be done on paper.
     
     A vote counting machine made out of discrete logic units that cannot be reprogrammed is acceptable mind you.
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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 23:00:49 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • 翠星石

     @Suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com I named this topic because a lot of interesting things about it can be talked about.
     
     Have you ever considered a voting system based on blockchain? Like in the simplest sense everyone citizen gets one VoteCoin and transfers it to who they vote for, whoever has the most VoteCoins wins the election.
     
     Other than sounding like a web3 scam this probably has many issues, but it also solves issues that we've never solved with paper voting such as transparency, as with a blockchain anyone can count the votes. So no more complaining about stolen elections.

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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 23:02:55 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • 翠星石

     @Suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com Personally I think with enough brainstorming we can think of an electronic voting system that is actually surpasses paper ballots on all fronts.

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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 23:45:56 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • 翠星石
     • Owl! 🦉

     @lonelyowl13@annihilation.social @Suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com On a technical level I don't think something like this is a bad solution, but cryptobros have really completely absolutely made sure that an idea like that would never gain any mainstream appeal in the future. Thanks guys

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     Owl! 🦉 (lonelyowl13@annihilation.social)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 23:45:57 JST Owl! 🦉

     in reply to

     • 翠星石
     @Suiseiseki @SuperDicq
     
     I was going to suggest an ethereum contract, but then i thought it would bring even more politard shit into crypto, and we're already suffering from various attempts at deranged regulation 😭
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:18:59 JST 翠星石

     in reply to
     @SuperDicq >Have you ever considered a voting system based on blockchain?
     Blockchain is only useful in the cases of PoW currencies - in all other cases it's a meme.
     
     >Like in the simplest sense everyone citizen gets one VoteCoin and transfers it to who they vote for, whoever has the most VoteCoins wins the election.
     There are many, many attacks against such cryptocurrency that will cause a miscount.
     
     One example would be a 51% attack, where someone goes and mines only blocks containing the votes containing their preferred candidate(s) and doesn't put votes for unwanted candidates in each block, meaning few or none of such votes get counted.
     
     I don't see a reliable method to allocate every citizen only one "VoteCoin" without at least identifying them - but such identification will allow looking up who someone voted for.
     
     
     A non-blockchain voting scheme utilizing ring signatures and zero knowledge proofs would allow for confidential hosting probably, but then there's the issue of ensuring that people can only vote once.
     
     
     One offered solution is a voting machine, that does all these things, but the problem with that is even if the machine is perfectly secure and hasn't been cracked (unlikely due to the proprietary software the machines run), many voters tend to leave after voting and typically there's a timeout screen that gives you a chance to correct a mistaken vote (and of course it's not impossible for someone to go "clean the touchscreen", while also changing the vote).
     
     Even if the voting scheme is perfectly secure, the will be the problem of how there's an extremely high chance of proprietary software that controls the vote entering changing the entered vote.
     
     
     A paper ballot is quite hard to surpass security and anonymity wise, as all the ballots are the same and go into a locked box that is physically watched and the counting process can be supervised too.
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     Alexandre Oliva (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 17:23:08 JST Alexandre Oliva

     in reply to
     how do you avoid coercion of voters?
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     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 17:24:22 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • Alexandre Oliva

     @lxo@gnusocial.net How do you do so with paper ballots?

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     Alexandre Oliva (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 20:11:02 JST Alexandre Oliva

     in reply to
     ballot secrecy. voters have no means to prove or disprove they voted on way or another, and no one can find out how others really voted, so attempts at coercion can be quietly and secretly resisted