Cat Hicks
Also I re-read some of my old achievement psych classic papers on performance-avoidance orientation and I was like oh yeah there's a reason when I took my first tech job at a FAANG I was like holy shit this place is a performance-avoidance case study
I wish this area of psych stuff had been picked up more than "psychological safety" I think y'all would've found it more useful
Paul Cantrell
@grimalkina
As someone ignorant on the topic, I’d be curious to hear you play out this thought a bit!
Cat Hicks
@inthehands community funded review paper time?! 😭😂
Paul Cantrell
@grimalkina
Is that just a paid newsletter?
Jenniferplusplus
@inthehands @grimalkina I hadn't heard of it either (or at least not that I remembered). But I found this just now, which helped a lot.
https://edpsych.pressbooks.sunycreate.cloud/chapter/goal-orientation-theory/
Cat Hicks
@inthehands I guess!!!! Maybe more like funding a board game project lol. Please subscribe to my substack which is also PsyArXiv 😂
Paul Cantrell
@grimalkina
I am 200% sure somebody out there is trying to raise funds to build an “AI-powered” version of this
Paul Cantrell
@jenniferplusplus @grimalkina
Thanks! That at least gives me a reasonable guess what the FAANG train of thought looks like.
Paul Cantrell
@grimalkina
Ha, yuuup. AI, like blockchain before it, it kind of a get out of jail free card for startups whose idea doesn’t quite add up. If you’re ever in MSP and want to share that story, the coffee’s on me.
Cat Hicks
@inthehands hahaha I have a great story about this for a coffee chat day someday because there is LITERALLY an "AI-powered" version of something I used to do research on because people gave up investing in getting the actual thing to work and are now doing smoke and mirrors AI about it
Paul Cantrell
@grimalkina @jenniferplusplus
Oof, I recognize every part of that executive summary
Cat Hicks
@jenniferplusplus @inthehands yassssssss
This is one of the theories I tied into the interpretation of my learning debt paper if you want my thoughts from a few years ago on this showing up in software work specifically
Paul Cantrell
@grimalkina @faassen @jenniferplusplus
Yeah, the word “mastery” is similarly problematic in educational philosophy.
Cat Hicks
@faassen @jenniferplusplus @inthehands indeed -- and I think it's important to consider a dimension where the mastery goal stuff isn't always about "I must become the best" but rather intrinsic motivation and caring about the effort of it, not just the output of it, perhaps that is my personal buddhist philosophy speaking here but I think the research aligns as well. I personally might not have chosen to call this "mastery" if I had named it
Martijn Faassen
I don't think I could function in a performance oriented organization anymore. I did once, in school. It just sounds so stressful.
Not that the mastery goal doesn't have its own stressors. I can give 110% for a while because I know how to manage myself into it and have learned the skills. Because I really want to make something work and improve. But it costs me too.
Cat Hicks
@faassen @jenniferplusplus @inthehands A great point on competition. The mastery orientation side tends to emphasis progress within the self instead of comparison with others (indeed in some ways, says there can be multiple diverse "bests") while the performance orientation side is where we get competition cultures. Where we locate the measurement of progress is very interesting (within the self, vs constantly about others), and it is very freeing to realize there are alternatives to competition
Paul Cantrell
@grimalkina @faassen @jenniferplusplus
The idea that there are multiple diverse “best”s is one of the things at the heart of my teaching approach, and is so powerful for students when they come to believe it. And it’s certainly one of the things that makes a great software team great.
Martijn Faassen
I am very much talking about intrinsic motivation. I enjoy learning new stuff, doing stuff I couldn't do before, write code I am proud of, find good ways to express and share my experiences and insights with others. And indeed deliver something others appreciate.
"Best" implies comparison. I look at others who impress me, as examples to learn, or just to marvel, though I admit sometimes it's nice if people are impressed by what I can do.
Paul Cantrell
@grimalkina @faassen @jenniferplusplus
An excerpt from a document I give in one of the intro courses I teach, seems relevant:
Martijn Faassen
Mastery also implies a summit of skill, whereas there is always more to learn. I think people who are great at something through continuous self motivated application are also often the most aware of what they want to do next that they aren't good at yet, or what they cannot do.
Cat Hicks
@faassen @inthehands @jenniferplusplus there's something in here for me too about the importance of preserving our curiosity and humility instead of moving into "I'm an expert" mode. We do need that mode in life and many of us earn it. But sometimes it's almost sad when you get really polished at something, right? Think about the joy of beginner's mind and the freedom of exploration. I personally love variety in my work because I simply lose that spark without it. That means always starting over
Martijn Faassen
I love this! The idea that confusion is actually a productive state that should be accepted as part of learning is one I embrace. I imagine you wrote this as you have experienced people who are scared by this confusion? Related to fixed/growth mindset.
Paul Cantrell
@faassen @grimalkina @jenniferplusplus
Yes, the earlier paragraphs talk about confusion and frustration at much greater length. And yes it is based on frustrations I’ve observed in students.
I should share the whole thing as a blog post, I suppose.
Ron Jeffries
@inthehands
Very nice. I made a similar point to a friend today. I don't have to be best, but I like to be a bit better today than I was yesterday.
Paul Cantrell
@faassen @grimalkina @nshephard @diazona @jenniferplusplus
Thought touched off by mention of microservices:
Many (most?) “best practices” are truly •are• best-we-currently-have for a •specific problem• or situation — “in case of X, try Y” — but the X gets dropped and people just hear “always do Y.”
Like microservices, for example: can help address certain incarnations of Conway’s Law; pretty bad for a lot of other things.
Neil :emacs: :orgmode:
@diazona @faassen @inthehands @grimalkina @jenniferplusplus
I think its the risk of "best" -> dogma that @faassen highlighted that is problematic with using "best".
I've seen many people who don't have an attitude of continual reflection on their (working) practices and just want to get a job done, working by rote and not looking for improvements.
Cat Hicks
@nshephard @diazona @faassen @inthehands @jenniferplusplus
I have my scientific work labeled as "best practices" a lot by others. There are many possible effects from this, I feel, and they range across the spectrum from good to bad! Sometimes it feels like marketing when others do this, and like it oversimplifies a really complicated set of findings. Sometimes it feels validating and helpful though, because it makes the point that this is coherent evidence tested in multiple contexts...
Martijn Faassen
@nshephard @diazona @inthehands @jenniferplusplus
Meta stuff leading to improved processes and people are indeed more likely to be generally applicable good practices. Like "get enough sleep" or "fix the system rather than individual".
But "do code review when an individual submits changes" is way dodgier already. So is "use microservices". And I am pretty sure many people consider both best practices.
Martijn Faassen
@nshephard @inthehands @grimalkina @jenniferplusplus
In the first case labeling a practice "best" may prevent learning or change for the better.
For the second case, if there are trade-offs that depend on context, then you pick a practice that fits them to the best of your ability, and I see little value in labeling it "best".
You may have practices to follow as a requirement - say, for space hardware. One could call this a best practice.
David Zaslavsky
@faassen @nshephard @inthehands @grimalkina @jenniferplusplus I would say if labeling a practice as "best" prevents learning or change for the better, then that is a gross misuse of the term "best practice".
But ultimately actions matter more than labels, and if a particular organization believes they're better off by not labeling things "best practice", then yes, they should go with that. (Their best practice is to not use the term "best practice" 😛)
Martijn Faassen
@nshephard @inthehands @grimalkina @jenniferplusplus
When people say "X is a best practice" any context is at best implied.
> Whereas if you're using the best practice, it can't really be argued that you should have been using a different practice instead which would have prevented the thing from going wrong.
"Nobody ever got fired for using the best practice"?
If something goes wrong, and this can be solved or prevented, improvement is possible, isn't it?
David Zaslavsky
@faassen @nshephard @inthehands @grimalkina @jenniferplusplus It depends. In some (many?) cases, yes, improvement is possible in the sense that you can find a way to prevent the thing that went wrong without significantly increasing the risk of other things going wrong, and thus the best practice evolves (what used to be the best practice is no longer the best practice because you found a better one). In other cases, it's not possible to change the practice in a way that would prevent whatever went wrong without making it easier for other things to go wrong, and that tradeoff may not be worth it. Although I suppose those latter cases are more rare than people often think they are.
Martijn Faassen
@inthehands @grimalkina @jenniferplusplus
Not a fan of the term either. "Best practices" can also devolve into dogma to be applied in all contexts.
Neil :emacs: :orgmode:
@faassen @inthehands @grimalkina @jenniferplusplus Agree, to me it implies, if taken literally, that there is no room for improvement.
David Zaslavsky
@nshephard @faassen @inthehands @grimalkina @jenniferplusplus I think it shouldn't be taken quite so literally, but my understanding is that's kind of the point. "Best practice" is supposed to mean that, to the best of your ability to determine, you are doing the thing in the best way it can be done.
The alternative is that you know of a better way it could be done, but you're not switching because you think the existing way is good enough, or because you don't have time, or don't care, or whatever. And I think that can sometimes be okay, but it's also not hard to imagine how it could go very wrong. Whereas if you're using the best practice, it can't really be argued that you should have been using a different practice instead which would have prevented the thing from going wrong. If that argument can be made, then it's essentially saying you weren't actually using the best practice.
(Of course the definition of "best" and "better" is often very sensitive to context)
Neil :emacs: :orgmode:
@inthehands @grimalkina @faassen @jenniferplusplus Its for this reason I don't like the term "best" and prefer "good".
E.g. "Good practices" rather than "Best practices".
Paul Cantrell
@faassen @grimalkina @nshephard @diazona @jenniferplusplus
And also a cudgel for ego.
Lack of control + need for control is always a volatile mixture. As is lack of certainty + need to always be right.
Cat Hicks
@faassen @nshephard @diazona @inthehands @jenniferplusplus yeah it's wild how opinionated people can be about the smallest choices in software and act like it's a dogmatic best practice. Honestly I think it's a coping mechanism against lack of control
Martijn Faassen
@nshephard @diazona @inthehands @jenniferplusplus
Yes, I think so. And against uncertainty, which is related.
GNU social JP is a social network, courtesy of GNU social JP管理人. It runs on GNU social, version 2.0.2-dev, available under the GNU Affero General Public License.
All GNU social JP content and data are available under the Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 license.