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Pax Ahimsa Gethen (funcrunch@me.dm)'s status on Friday, 16-Feb-2024 13:32:15 JST Pax Ahimsa Gethen
- Cory Doctorow
Great article (as usual) by @pluralistic on "bestselling" books, botshit, and bezzles:
https://doctorow.medium.com/how-a-billionaires-mediocre-pump-and-dump-book-became-a-bestseller-2ed7a8c472d7
(Paywall-free link)
#books #crypto #ChrisDixon #ReadWriteOwn #NYTBestSeller

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  karen coyle (kcoyle@mstdn.social)'s status on Friday, 16-Feb-2024 13:32:14 JST karen coyle
  in reply to
  - Cory Doctorow
  @funcrunch @pluralistic Best quote: "Remember that cryptocurrency is a faith-based initiative..."
  
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  Roderick (rvkennedy@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 18-Feb-2024 00:28:45 JST Roderick
  in reply to
  @JorgeStolfi @apolaine @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle maybe read a bit deeper , unless you have some other sources that promote the contrary view. Graeber is not a crypto bro or libertarian but a serious academic. Or try Steve Keen's Debunking Economics.
  
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  Jorge Stolfi (jorgestolfi@mas.to)'s status on Sunday, 18-Feb-2024 00:28:46 JST Jorge Stolfi
  in reply to
  @apolaine @rvkennedy @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle
  From the editor's blurb, that book seems to be a big load of bullshit.
  Since much before the "agrarian societies", up to a couple of centuries ago, people have been using commodities as money. Shells, flint, useful metals, barley, salt, tobacco rope, cows, ... Debt is a separate concept. It requires means to record it and to enforce its collection, which came much after money.
  
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  Andy Polaine (apolaine@pkm.social)'s status on Sunday, 18-Feb-2024 00:28:47 JST Andy Polaine
  in reply to
  @JorgeStolfi @rvkennedy @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle It’s nothing to do with trust of the Fed. That’s why people head to gold in times of financial crisis.
  Money is based upon debt, without which it has no value, and sovereign currencies are valuable entirely because of the state’s monopoly on violence (police, army, laws) to call in that debt.
  The best primer on this is David Greaber’s *Debt: The first 5,000 years* https://bookshop.org/p/books/debt-the-first-5-000-years-updated-and-expanded-david-graeber/8072806
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  Jorge Stolfi (jorgestolfi@mas.to)'s status on Sunday, 18-Feb-2024 00:28:48 JST Jorge Stolfi
  in reply to
  @rvkennedy @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle
  Some countries have laws that prohibit the use of other national currencies in commerce. But not the US. Americans (like people everywhere else) use the USD because they trust it, not because they are forced to use it.
  But yes, people trust the Fed because they trust that the US government will give it the resources it needs to do its job, and will not try to use it to "print money" for its budget.
  
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  Roderick (rvkennedy@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 18-Feb-2024 00:28:49 JST Roderick
  in reply to
  @JorgeStolfi @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle Sorry, but no. Worldwide trust of the USD is a second-order effect. At the bottom of it is the stability of the US government, and its ability to enforce the use of its currency in its borders. Your saying "people trust the USD because they trust the Fed" leads to the question, "why do people trust the Fed can do what it intends?" Which leads to "because the US govt and all its apparatus of state backs it up." Which leads to my point above.
  
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  Jorge Stolfi (jorgestolfi@mas.to)'s status on Sunday, 18-Feb-2024 00:28:50 JST Jorge Stolfi
  in reply to
  @rvkennedy @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle
  False. The USD is used all over the world because people trust that it will have a STABLE value, at least in the near future.
  And it has a stable value because it has a central bank (the Fed) with the mission and means to keep its value stable, minus the planned inflation.
  Without guns.
  In short, people trust the USD because they trust the Fed. Even those who do not know what the Fed does, or think it is the abode of the Devil.
  
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  Roderick (rvkennedy@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 18-Feb-2024 00:28:51 JST Roderick
  in reply to
  @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle no. Real currencies have value because they are enforced by governments that have judicial systems, police forces and armies. You need US dollars for example in the USA because they're the only way to pay US taxes, and you can be at the last resort, physically arrested for refusing to pay.
  
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  immibis (immibis@social.immibis.com)'s status on Sunday, 18-Feb-2024 00:28:52 JST immibis
  in reply to
  - Cory Doctorow
  - karen coyle
  @kcoyle @funcrunch @pluralistic at the risk of sounding like a scammer, it's important to remember that all currencies are ultimately based on the same human factors as cryptocurrencies. Perhaps the only good thing cryptocurrencies have done is encouraged people to re-examine how all currencies work.
  
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  Andy Polaine (apolaine@pkm.social)'s status on Sunday, 18-Feb-2024 00:28:59 JST Andy Polaine
  in reply to
  @JorgeStolfi @rvkennedy @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle this is a common misconception and exactly what Graeber spent 560 pages debunking. You won’t get it from the cover blurb.
  Debt came first. Money is a marker of debt (whether shells or dollars). Markets as we understand them came later.
  
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  Roderick (rvkennedy@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 18-Feb-2024 00:29:00 JST Roderick
  in reply to
  - Jorge Stolfi
  @JorgeStolfi You keep saying you're against crypto, but you keep insisting on the libertarian framing of money that crypto is based on.
  It was not trade, then money, then debt, according the the best info we have (I'm not the expert but believe the experts like Graeber).
  It was trade first. That created debt, "You gave me an apple, so I owe you a favour." - an apple again, a share of meat, some work, whatever. That's debt. Much, much later, came money, as a formalization of debt.
  
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  Jorge Stolfi (jorgestolfi@mas.to)'s status on Sunday, 18-Feb-2024 00:29:01 JST Jorge Stolfi
  in reply to
  @apolaine @rvkennedy @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle
  Trade, not debt, came first. Then money. Then debt.
  Money is something that a person does not really want, but accepts in a trade because he trusts that he will be able to trade at another place and/or time for something that he really wants. It makes trade more effective, by removing the need to match needs and offers in trades.
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOauOJg-fCQ
  🧵>
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  1. The Trader (Sovdagari) | Official Trailer [HD] | Netflix
    
    from Netflix
    
    A portrait of a man and his minibus. The Trader (Sovdagari) follows Gela as he sells secondhand goods through rural Georgia, where money is meaningless, and ...
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  Roderick (rvkennedy@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:29:37 JST Roderick
  in reply to
  @JorgeStolfi @zockel @ikaikahussey @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle you're actually making a closer argument to what the crypto people do say. They argue that there's no essential difference between a cryptocurrency and fiat - that it's all about community acceptance. And they also promote the value of limiting the money supply to ensure that the value increases.
  
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  Jorge Stolfi (jorgestolfi@mas.to)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:29:37 JST Jorge Stolfi
  in reply to
  @rvkennedy @zockel @ikaikahussey @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle
  No, no, no. For starters, crypto is a fiat currency too.
  National currencies work as money because they have a central bank that stabilizes their value, AND have inflation of a few %/yr, AND other things.
  A cryptocurrency, by definition, cannot have a central bank; and its buyers believe that its value will "eventually" go up! Up!! UP!!!. And those are only two of the reasons why cryptos cannot be money.
  
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  Jorge Stolfi (jorgestolfi@mas.to)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:29:38 JST Jorge Stolfi
  in reply to
  @zockel @ikaikahussey @rvkennedy @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle
  They own a lot of HAND guns, mostly because they get to take home their rifle after army service. Those guns would be of little use against an invasion by the US. If they were that powerful, why didn't they protect the citizens against the imposition of the franc by their government?
  Come on, give up. "People accept the USD because they are forced to" is just a silly lie that crypto promoters tell their marks. 🧵>
  
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  zockel (zockel@det.social)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:29:40 JST zockel
  in reply to
  @JorgeStolfi @ikaikahussey @rvkennedy @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle I don't know about the other countries, but people in Switzerland own a lot of guns.
  
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  Jorge Stolfi (jorgestolfi@mas.to)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:29:41 JST Jorge Stolfi
  in reply to
  @ikaikahussey @rvkennedy @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle
  The Swiss franc, the Norwegian and Danish krones, and the Singapore dollar are among the most stable currencies in the world. Hardly because of their guns...
  
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  Ikaika Hussey (ikaikahussey@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:29:42 JST Ikaika Hussey
  in reply to
  @JorgeStolfi @rvkennedy @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle I think the guns are pretty important.
  
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  Jorge Stolfi (jorgestolfi@mas.to)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:29:49 JST Jorge Stolfi
  in reply to
  @prestontumber @rvkennedy @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle
  Using bitcoin as unit of account is like using "rubber band" as a unit of length. Only much worse.
  Indeed, that is one of the reasons why it is the most laughable thing that has ever been proposed as money.
  
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  Preston Is Not My Real Name (prestontumber@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:29:50 JST Preston Is Not My Real Name
  in reply to
  @JorgeStolfi @rvkennedy @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle Fascinating! I'd have to say as a voter, I'd be against any such legislation in the jurisdictions I vote in. Still, the unit of account used by those entities is ultimately USD, correct? Even if the actual exchange was theoretically in BTC?
  
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  Jorge Stolfi (jorgestolfi@mas.to)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:29:51 JST Jorge Stolfi
  in reply to
  @prestontumber @rvkennedy @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle
  Actually, Florida and a couple of cities in the US tried to allow people to pay their taxes in bitcoin. Seems it was the idea of city officials who (like Joel Greenberg) happened to be bitcoin investors and/or users of its money laundering properties. And then there is El Salvador.
  However, those initiatives mostly failed, for lack of interest and/or because bitcoin, as a currency, is a bad joke.
  
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  Preston Is Not My Real Name (prestontumber@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:29:52 JST Preston Is Not My Real Name
  in reply to
  @JorgeStolfi @rvkennedy @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle The law may not require it for commercial transactions, but I doubt very much the law allows me to pay my obligations to the United States in anything other than USD
  
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  Cory Doctorow (pluralistic@mamot.fr)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:29:56 JST Cory Doctorow
  in reply to
  @theoldbeginner @JorgeStolfi @prestontumber @rvkennedy @immibis @funcrunch @kcoyle
  You have missed the point: supply-constrained currency MUST fluctuate when demand changes. If you can't expand the pool of currency available when the economy grows, then the value of currency shoots up (deflation) and if you can't annihilate money when the economy shrinks, the value plummets (inflation).
  The point of a central bank is to adjust monetary supply to maximize stability.
  
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  Wayne Smith (theoldbeginner@mastodon.world)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:30:05 JST Wayne Smith
  in reply to
  @JorgeStolfi @prestontumber @rvkennedy @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle
  You are correct that the value of digital currency fluctuates.
  So does fiat currency.
  Public have a choice. Digital currency value determined by we-the-people or fiat currency value determined by politicians.
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  Roderick (rvkennedy@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:30:09 JST Roderick
  in reply to
  @pluralistic @theoldbeginner @JorgeStolfi @prestontumber @immibis @funcrunch @kcoyle this. And key to the system working is that there are humans in the loop, checks, balances and accountability. Trying to automate the supply of a currency, as most crypto coins at least claim to do, is a guarantee of failure.
  
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  Cory Doctorow (pluralistic@mamot.fr)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:30:13 JST Cory Doctorow
  in reply to
  @JorgeStolfi @prestontumber @rvkennedy @immibis @funcrunch @kcoyle
  But also because the value of BTC is - deliberately - extremely volatile. Any fixed-supply token is *necessarily* volatile, assuming variable demand. When demand goes up, so does the value, and when demand decreases, value goes down. This is why cryptos are all but useless as media of exchange and stores of value (hence the "pizza day" observance).
  
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  Preston Is Not My Real Name (prestontumber@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:30:16 JST Preston Is Not My Real Name
  in reply to
  @pluralistic @JorgeStolfi @rvkennedy @immibis @funcrunch @kcoyle I feel like this is also one of the stronger arguments in *favor* of the concept of fiat currency vs 'traditional' currencies. I don't like the idea of someone digging up a bunch more dollars and suddenly the currency goes crazy. At least when Central Banks do it there is a *purpose* to it, not the vagaries of chance.
  
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  Jorge Stolfi (jorgestolfi@mas.to)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:30:20 JST Jorge Stolfi
  in reply to
  - Cory Doctorow
  - shiri
  - immibis
  - Roderick
  - karen coyle
  @shiri @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle @rvkennedy @immibis @prestontumber@ma
  stodon.social
  🧵> The consumers of gold are mostly jewelers and decorators, and (to a smaller extent) industry. They buy some 2000 tons per year, more than half of what the miners dig out of the ground.
  Those consumers demand gold because it is still the best metal for those purposes, with no competitors. It is that demand that makes gold valuable (and made it so since pre-history).
  🧵>
  
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  Jorge Stolfi (jorgestolfi@mas.to)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:30:21 JST Jorge Stolfi
  in reply to
  @shiri @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle @rvkennedy @immibis @prestontumber
  Another big lie that bitcoiners and goldbugs must tell their marks. Which comes from "Austrian Economy". Which explains (1) why Austrian Economy went the way of the phlogiston, long ago, and (2) why goldbugs and bitcoiners dug it out of its grave.
  Gold (like any commodity) has value because it has CONSUMERS - people who buy it to consume, rather than with intent to re-sell. 🧵>
  
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  shiri (shiri@foggyminds.com)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:30:22 JST shiri
  in reply to
  @prestontumber @JorgeStolfi @kcoyle @rvkennedy @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch the way I explain it to people is that gold, the typical backer that they talk about, is itself a fiat currency... after a couple rounds of conversation eventually the light bulb kicks on that gold has value because we say it does... ie. fiat.
  
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  Ongion (ongion@mendeddrum.org)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:30:30 JST Ongion
  in reply to
  - Cory Doctorow
  - Jorge Stolfi
  - shiri
  - immibis
  - Roderick
  - karen coyle
  @JorgeStolfi @shiri @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle @rvkennedy @immibis
  > "They alone cannot make something have lasting value, if there are no consumers."
  Ahhh, so Bitcoin has value because of ransomware! 😝
  
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  Jorge Stolfi (jorgestolfi@mas.to)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:30:32 JST Jorge Stolfi
  in reply to
  - Cory Doctorow
  - shiri
  - immibis
  - Roderick
  - karen coyle
  @shiri @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle @rvkennedy @immibis
  🧵> The speculators -- people who buy gold with the intent of selling it later (as investment, "store of value", "hedge", contraband, etc) -- will affect the price, up or down, depending on whether they are net buyers or net sellers -- which can turn on a dime. But they alone cannot make something have lasting value, if there are no consumers. Which is the case of #Bitcoin💩...
  
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  Roderick (rvkennedy@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:30:36 JST Roderick
  in reply to
  @JorgeStolfi @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle this is the opposite of what happens though. When a US govt shutdown looms due to Congress' refusal to raise the debt ceiling (print money), the dollar typically loses 1-2% of its value. If "printing money" was a concern in the currency markets, it would gain value when this happens.
  
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  shiri (shiri@foggyminds.com)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:30:36 JST shiri
  in reply to
  @rvkennedy @JorgeStolfi @kcoyle @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch that's got a number of things jumbled.
  The debt ceiling has nothing to do with the central bank or printing money, it has to do with the government issuing bonds (taking on more debt).
  The dollar value drops internationally because a failure to raise the debt ceiling also means the government defaults on it's debts. It's international debts are still in USD, so those debts are worth less if the US threatens to not pay them.
  
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  Roderick (rvkennedy@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:30:40 JST Roderick
  in reply to
  @shiri @pluralistic @funcrunch @JorgeStolfi @kcoyle @immibis "Taking on more debt" by issuing bonds is *how governments create money*. It's one of only two ways money is created: the other is by banks lending (under licence from governments).
  
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  Cory Doctorow (pluralistic@mamot.fr)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:30:40 JST Cory Doctorow
  in reply to
  - Jorge Stolfi
  - shiri
  - immibis
  - Roderick
  - karen coyle
  @rvkennedy @shiri @funcrunch @JorgeStolfi @kcoyle @immibis
  Governments can and do issue currency without issuing corresponding liabilities. Selling bonds is just a crude way of constraining demand (by sequestering money) that might otherwise be created by currency issuance. But if a central bank anticipates an expansion in the goods and services for sale in its currency, there is no need to constrain demand.
  
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  Andy Polaine (apolaine@pkm.social)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:30:44 JST Andy Polaine
  in reply to
  @JorgeStolfi @rvkennedy @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle if you’re genuinely interested in a very short explanation, read the answer to the “You examined 5000 years of economic and cultural behavior. Would you ever suggest that capitalism as we know it needs to change?” question here: https://davidgraeber.org/articles/david-graeber-studied-5000-years-of-debt/
  Virtual money is not new. Hence the applicability of history to crypto.
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  Jorge Stolfi (jorgestolfi@mas.to)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:30:45 JST Jorge Stolfi
  in reply to
  @apolaine @rvkennedy @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle
  Well, I don't need to argue this either...
  Archaeology does provide plenty of evidence of trade in the Paleolithic. It also provides some evidence of commodity money. What evidence does is provide of debt?
  
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  Andy Polaine (apolaine@pkm.social)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:30:46 JST Andy Polaine
  in reply to
  @JorgeStolfi @rvkennedy @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle it does not show this. Archeology requires interpretation. Graeber goes deep into the evidence. But, listen, I don’t need to argue this because someone with far greater credentials already did.
  
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  Jorge Stolfi (jorgestolfi@mas.to)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 19:30:47 JST Jorge Stolfi
  in reply to
  @rvkennedy @apolaine @immibis @pluralistic @funcrunch @kcoyle
  Whatever his credentials, money is NOT based on debt. Archaeology shows that money existed independently of debt for tens of millennia before debt accounting and enforcement was even possible.
  Anyway, what do those books have to say about crypto and national currencies?
  
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