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1. Embed this notice
   🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 06:50:53 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

   Remember the days when tolerance and appreciating new perspectives and differences of opinion were considered a virtue?

   Peppridge farms remembers.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 06:53:05 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️

     @realcaseyrollins

     Intolerance is the only true tolerance, duh!

   • Embed this notice
     realcaseyrollins ✝️ (realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 06:53:06 JST realcaseyrollins ✝️

     in reply to

     @freemo NO BUT DON’T YOU SEE TOLERANCE IS A PARADOX SO YOU HAVE TO BE INTOLERANT

   • Embed this notice
     volkris@qoto.org's status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:06:51 JST volkris

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️

     @freemo @realcaseyrollins

     2 + 2 = 5 for sufficiently large values of two

     Tolerance is absolutely a virtue for sufficiently intolerant definitions of tolerant.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:11:16 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris

     @volkris

     I am not suggesting you should be tolerant of everything, No one needs to be tolerant of literal Nazis for example. But when everyone and everything that disagrees with you looks like a Nazi.....

     @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     realcaseyrollins ✝️ (realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:22:25 JST realcaseyrollins ✝️

     in reply to

     • volkris

     @freemo @volkris I actually disagree with this, depending on what you mean.

     When people say “tolerance”, they usually refer to either allowing people to speak, or not barring people from taking office.

     Any ideology that bars people from speaking or holding office based on their beliefs alone will bleed into fascism given enough time and power.

     Now to be clear, there’s a big difference between tolerance and acceptance. Listening to an idea doesn’t mean you should embrace it. But it’s possible to have enough discernment that you hear someone crazy say something crazy and say “that’s crazy” rather than “why isn’t he in jail yet”.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:25:55 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris

     @realcaseyrollins

     Tolerance is simply how much you respect, care, and consider the opinions of people who arent like you.

     @volkris

   • Embed this notice
     Sir Nedwood (ned@gleasonator.com)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:27:01 JST Sir Nedwood

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris
     @freemo @volkris @realcaseyrollins is a NAZI evil because they support a political position of nationalist socialism. Or because they want to kill Jews? We should be judging people by their specific abhorrent views, not their associations.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:27:01 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris
     • Sir Nedwood

     @ned

     It would depend on what exactly we agree "nationalist socialism" entails... wanting to commit genocide is certainly the **biggest** reason their evil, but it may not be the only one.

     @volkris @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     volkris@qoto.org's status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:30:01 JST volkris

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️

     @freemo I'd say the key is to just be honest.

     If a person doesn't want to tolerate something, great! They should own it. I'm going to be intolerant about my friends being jerks in my living room.

     Intolerance is not necessarily bad.

     And in fact a person can highlight just how bad they consider something to be by saying, that idea is so unacceptable that I will be intolerant about it.

     So I always tell people to just be honest, own what they are doing, don't try to rewrite the language instead because that just gets silly and even undermines their causes.

     @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:32:05 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @Hyolobrika

     No, in fact quite the opposite. A political system that **does** bar people from holding office who hold fascist beliefs would be come fascist the fastest. In fact, the moment it passes the law that prevents them from holding office, at that very moment it has become fascist.

     @volkris @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     Hyolobrika (hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:32:09 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris
     >Any ideology that bars people from ... holding office based on their beliefs alone will bleed into fascism given enough time and power.
     Don't you think a political system that doesn't bar people from holding office who hold fascist beliefs will become fascist faster?
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:34:20 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris
     • Sir Nedwood

     @Hyolobrika

     For the nazi specifically? The murder and oppression of pretty much anything that isnt seen as the "norm" in society from minotiries to gays. The banning (or rather enforcement of such bans) on guns, freedom of speech, right to assemble. There are TONS of bad things they did that goes beyond simply killing the Jews.

     @ned @volkris @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     Hyolobrika (hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:34:25 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris
     • Sir Nedwood
     What are the others?
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:35:16 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @Hyolobrika

     I dont maintain a personal definition of fascism. I agree with the dictionary on this term and find it sufficient.

     @volkris @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     Hyolobrika (hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:35:20 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris
     What's your definition of fascism?
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:36:18 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @Hyolobrika @volkris @realcaseyrollins

     The democratic aspect is only one of the qualities that makes fascism fasism.

   • Embed this notice
     Hyolobrika (hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:36:19 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris
     Because I didn't realise it just meant "when you don't have perfectly pure democracy"
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:37:58 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris
     • Sir Nedwood

     @Hyolobrika

     "A nationalist form of socialism" is not the sane as "Nationalist Socialism" which is a synonym for the nazi party.

     The names of partys and politicial movements are often quite different than the literal meaning of the words as a descriptor.

     @ned @volkris @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     Hyolobrika (hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:38:02 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris
     • Sir Nedwood
     Couldn't you separate all that from the core belief of wanting a nationalist form of socialism?
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:39:02 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris
     • Sir Nedwood

     @ned

     Sure America has... when did I ever claim America was the good guys?

     @volkris @Hyolobrika @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     Sir Nedwood (ned@gleasonator.com)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:39:03 JST Sir Nedwood

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris
     @freemo @Hyolobrika @volkris @realcaseyrollins America and other so called "free" nations have all done shit like that. The point is you are using it as a filter to determine who you can tolerate and who you can't. And I'm just challenging your assumptions.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:40:00 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris

     @realcaseyrollins

     Not sure I see the relevance. Being tolerant doesnt mean you have to be tolerant to the point of absurdity.

     @volkris

   • Embed this notice
     realcaseyrollins ✝️ (realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:40:01 JST realcaseyrollins ✝️

     in reply to

     • volkris
     @freemo @volkris @freemo @volkris
     IDK. This instance is a free speech zone, for example, but none of us here would respect, care for or consider Nazism.
   • Embed this notice
     volkris@qoto.org's status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:41:18 JST volkris

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️

     @freemo nobody said you have to be tolerant!

     But if you're going to be tolerant then, yes, you have to be tolerant to the point of absurdity if it comes to that, by definition.

     And that's a great reason not to be absurdly tolerant!

     @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:41:52 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris

     @volkris

     Every word you just said was nonsense... i like!

     @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:45:31 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris
     • Sir Nedwood

     @Hyolobrika

     Sure. I really dont care if you could find some aspect of their policy that happens to bea good idea.. I mean they didnt have very many good ideas, but im not going to say something is bad just cause its associated with nazis alone. As I often point out, Hitler liked birthday cakes, it doesnt make birthday cakes evil.

     @ned @volkris @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     Hyolobrika (hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:45:36 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris
     • Sir Nedwood
     My (and I think Ned's) point was that the Nazi party had a specific economic ideology that is logically separable from the murderous and socially authoritarian parts, and we should judge each part separately.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:48:33 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris
     • Sir Nedwood

     @Hyolobrika

     I'd rather hear your opinions than read someone elses who isnt here.

     @ned @volkris @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     Hyolobrika (hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:48:38 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris
     • Sir Nedwood
     Relevant:
     - https://unherd.com/2020/02/eugenics-is-possible-is-not-the-same-as-eugenics-is-good/
     - https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095807831
   • Embed this notice
     volkris@qoto.org's status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:49:12 JST volkris

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️

     @freemo

     Well I was channeling the nonsensical notion that in tolerance would be tolerance but to be practical:

     If you want to be a tolerance absolutist, to borrow Musk's term, then yeah you do have to be tolerant of even absurdity. If you want to claim such absolute tolerance, well, that might be rough, but it will involve tolerating a bunch of wacky stuff.

     And that's why absolute tolerance is pretty unworkable in the real world.

     In the real world, in most situations, we will be intolerant, and that is a good and healthy and mature thing so long as we draw the lines in appropriate places.

     We should celebrate being intolerant of things that make the world, or our lives, or the situation worse.

     Don't like Nazis? (whatever that means to you) Fine! You're probably going to want to be intolerant of them, and that's the right thing to do.

     But it's the wrong thing to be reasonably intolerant of Nazis but claim that you're being tolerant.

     No, be intolerant! And proudly say that you are intolerant of Nazis!

     It's just Orwellian to try to rewrite the word for no particularly good reason like that.

     @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:50:25 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris

     @volkris

     I dont believe in tolerance absolutism.. on a personal level you should be tolerant sure, doesnt mean you need to tolerate everything.

     Absolutes dont work in anything, ever, not even once.

     @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:52:06 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @Hyolobrika

     If such an exchange were actually possible, maybe.

     In practice attempting to do so results in a loss of liberty and an increase in the risk. So such an equation does not exist in the world, even if hypothetically if such a thing could exist it sounds appealing.

     @volkris @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     Hyolobrika (hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:52:11 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris
     What if they do?
     Isn't it better to sacrifice some democracy to gain better protection against genocide and loss of liberty? Because I think life and liberty are definitely more important than democracy.
   • Embed this notice
     realcaseyrollins ✝️ (realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:52:12 JST realcaseyrollins ✝️

     in reply to

     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris
     @freemo @volkris @Hyolobrika @freemo @volkris
     Only if the people start embracing the fascism.
   • Embed this notice
     volkris@qoto.org's status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:52:50 JST volkris

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️

     @freemo Right, neither do I, and that's why I would say we both (and everyone else) need to be ready to proudly state that we are intolerant of certain things 🙂

     That's my point.

     Rather than redefining tolerance we should all own the causes where we promote intolerance.

     @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:53:46 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris
     • Sir Nedwood

     @Hyolobrika

     Then feel free to express it here and I'd be happy to talk about it :)

     @ned @volkris @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     Hyolobrika (hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:53:51 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris
     • Sir Nedwood
     The first link is entirely my opinion though IIRC. The fact that someone else happened to think of it (or hear of it) separately is irrelevant. Pointing to his expression of it is much faster than writing an entire essay myself.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:54:53 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris

     @volkris

     Everything is a spectrum, and almost always existing on either end is the worst place to be. You usually want to be in the happy middle for most things. Tolerance is no different.

     @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:56:57 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @Hyolobrika

     Because you cant secure liberty by taking it away.

     @volkris @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     Hyolobrika (hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:57:00 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris
     How? I'm talking specifically about barring such people from office, not preventing them from speaking.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:59:10 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @volkris

     Similarly you cant enact fascism as a bid to prevent fascism.

     @Hyolobrika @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     volkris@qoto.org's status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 07:59:11 JST volkris

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika

     @Hyolobrika keep in mind that there is a speech element to barring a person from office if you prevent people from expressing, through voting, their preference for that person.

     This is one huge element in the current Trump drama that there’s a huge difference between kicking him off a ballot versus letting him take office if elected, but the two issues are being muddled together.

     @freemo @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 08:01:13 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris
     • Sir Nedwood

     @realcaseyrollins

     He loved them

     @ned @volkris @Hyolobrika

   • Embed this notice
     realcaseyrollins ✝️ (realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 08:01:14 JST realcaseyrollins ✝️

     in reply to

     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris
     • Sir Nedwood
     @freemo @volkris @freemo @Hyolobrika @ned @volkris
     Wait... #Hitler liked birthday cakes???
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 08:04:21 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris

     @realcaseyrollins

     You are talking about specific exammples of tolerance. and that is fine. But the conversation is just about tolerance in the general sense, not legality or anything like that. Or even tolerance in public space. Those are specific subsets that of course can have their own discussions.

     When talkking about public spaces we do have free speech restrictions even in the USA, even on the side walk. They are referred to as time, place, and manner restrictions, then you also have calls to action and other aspects of free speech and tolerance.

     @volkris

   • Embed this notice
     realcaseyrollins ✝️ (realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 08:04:23 JST realcaseyrollins ✝️

     in reply to

     • volkris
     @volkris @freemo @volkris @freemo
     For clarity, I'm talking about tolerance in public spaces. If you're running around cursing at randos in an airport, you should probably be removed. In a private space like a church, they should be allowed to gatekeep who gets to speak from the pulpit.
     
     But in public areas or place colloquially viewed as "town square", we should have as much tolerance as reasonably possible.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 08:05:32 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris
     • Sir Nedwood

     @realcaseyrollins

     Everything at every level is a balance. Even in the USA where free speech (And the tolerance that goes with it) is a primary right. Yet even in america tolerance has its limits, and there are in fact quite a few restrictions with regards to the appropriate way to express your rights.

     @ned @volkris @Hyolobrika

   • Embed this notice
     Sir Nedwood (ned@gleasonator.com)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 08:05:34 JST Sir Nedwood

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris
     @freemo @volkris @Hyolobrika @realcaseyrollins they're just the big obvious counter example is all.
     
     Personally I don't think we should tolerate everyone. Or even certain ideas. But at the same time I am at odds with the values that my country (or the western world in general) choose to be intolerant of. Or perhaps more accurately, the ones they choose to tolerate that they shouldn't.
   • Embed this notice
     realcaseyrollins ✝️ (realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 08:05:34 JST realcaseyrollins ✝️

     in reply to

     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris
     • Sir Nedwood
     @freemo @volkris @ned @freemo @volkris @Hyolobrika
     And that's the problem with intolerance at an institutional level; kung fu fighting is all fun and games until you got kicked in the gonads.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 08:06:33 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @realcaseyrollins

     My grandfather (a WWII vet) had to walk that slippery scope to get to school, uphill, both ways, in the snow.

     @volkris @Hyolobrika

   • Embed this notice
     realcaseyrollins ✝️ (realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 08:06:34 JST realcaseyrollins ✝️

     in reply to

     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris
     @freemo @volkris @Hyolobrika @freemo @volkris
     #Hitler likely made a similar argument.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 08:16:54 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris
     • Sir Matthew, Black Knight

     @ent

     A republic is a type of democracy. The proper term is a "Democratic Republic" ... you are thinking of r a"Direct Democracy" which is another form. There isnt just one type. and since there isnt just one type it is silly to try to say its a crap system since it isnt a single system, it is a category of systems.

     @volkris @Hyolobrika @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     Sir Matthew, Black Knight (ent@noauthority.social)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 08:16:55 JST Sir Matthew, Black Knight

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @volkris
     Democracy is a crap system, which is why the the US constitution doesn't mention democracy a single time. It's a republic, meant to protect the rights of the smallest minority: the individual.

     Fascism is simply corporatism, stated by Mussolini himself. We're already there in the US and have been for decades in my estimation, regardless of the party holding the reins.
     @Hyolobrika @freemo @realcaseyrollins

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     volkris@qoto.org's status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 08:16:56 JST volkris

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika

     @Hyolobrika I think the first step in that question is being honest about what it’s doing.

     Like you said, sacrifice some democracy. I’m glad you put it that way. So many people not only refuse to put it that way, but they deny that they are doing that in the first place.

     We as a society can’t really discuss whether we want to make that trade off or not if we are refusing to call it what it is.

     @freemo @realcaseyrollins

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     Sir Matthew, Black Knight (ent@noauthority.social)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 08:34:22 JST Sir Matthew, Black Knight

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @freemo
     I'll have to disagree with you, you're still describing a republic with your phrasing. I don't like dealing with poorly defined terms, broadening "democracy" to include republics and anything between the two. In the US, representatives are voted for, yet the core system is still a republic on paper.

     Regardless, I'd argue the US has already slipped into corporatism, aka fascism, despite airs that voting still matters.
     @volkris @Hyolobrika @realcaseyrollins

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     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 08:34:22 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris
     • Sir Matthew, Black Knight

     @ent

     Of course im still describing a republic, a republic is a specific form of democracy, why would I not be describing a republic?

     @volkris @Hyolobrika @realcaseyrollins

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     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 08:35:24 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris
     • Sir Matthew, Black Knight

     @ent

     Did we slip into corporatism or fascism, those are completely different ideas with wildly different components, and there can be a lot of overlap there.

     @volkris @Hyolobrika @realcaseyrollins

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     Sir Matthew, Black Knight (ent@noauthority.social)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 08:38:15 JST Sir Matthew, Black Knight

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @freemo
     "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power."
     - Mussolini
     @volkris @Hyolobrika @realcaseyrollins

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     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 08:38:15 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris
     • Sir Matthew, Black Knight

     Except that it literally isnt. Mussolini was a lot of things, a political science expert he was not.

     While fascism can of course be achieved through corporate power, that is not a requirement of fascism and is simply one among many ways to get there. They most certainly arent synonymous.

     @ent @volkris @Hyolobrika @realcaseyrollins

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     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 08:42:03 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris
     • Sir Matthew, Black Knight

     @Hyolobrika

     I was just going to let that little detail slide :)

     @ent @volkris @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     Hyolobrika (hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 08:42:08 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris
     • Sir Matthew, Black Knight

     For reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism

     Corporatism does not refer to a political system dominated by large business interests, even though the latter are commonly referred to as “corporations” in modern American vernacular and legal parlance; instead, the correct term for this theoretical system would be corporatocracy. Corporatism is not government corruption in politics or the use of bribery by corporate interest groups. The terms ‘corporatocracy’ and ‘corporatism’ are often confused due to their name and the use of corporations as organs of the state.

   • Embed this notice
     Niclas Hedhman (niclas@angrytoday.com)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 08:51:32 JST Niclas Hedhman

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @freemo

     @Hyolobrika @volkris @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 08:58:41 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @Hyolobrika

     It is literally a violation of liberty by definition.

     Liberty is defined as "the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views."

     Therefore creating a government which by definition imposes restrictions on which political views can be agreed upon by a society and executed is, by its fundamental nature a violation of liberty.

     @volkris @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     Hyolobrika (hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 08:58:44 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris
     How would it take liberty away though?
     Being able to choose a leader to force their (and by proxy, your) views on people is power, not liberty. Liberty is control over your own life, not the lives of others.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 09:05:11 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @Hyolobrika

     forcing a political view on someone, in and of itself, is not the definition of fascism.

     @volkris @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 09:16:56 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @Hyolobrika

     Where in the definition of liberty say its limited to the ability to talk about things, rather than execute them?

     @volkris @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     Hyolobrika (hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 09:17:01 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris
     I think you're confusing two very different things: 1) people discussing politics and coming to agreement on something and 2) actually executing it and implementing it politically.
     #1 should almost always be allowed for the sake of liberty (except possibly when it comes to genocide; but that's an aside). And regardless, #2 I think is acceptable to regulate because it's about the internals of the government.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 09:18:04 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @Hyolobrika

     But thats literally not the definition of fascism.. you keepy trying to wrangle words into meaning something it is not.. liberty is not limited to discussions and fascism is not limited to oppression

     @volkris @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     Hyolobrika (hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 09:18:10 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris
     The view in question would be fascism.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 09:27:20 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @Hyolobrika

     If I or someone else try to execute my view that you should die by attacking you, I think you are justified in self-defense, don’t you?

     I should be, yes, presuming I didnt try to kill them first.

     I don’t think that contradicts the general principle of liberty.

     When someone is charging at you with a knife shooting them in a facce would be a reasonable violation of liberty (choosing the lesser of two liberties to deny when both are mutually exclusive)

     Likewise if a political movement decides that your kind should die or otherwise be oppressed.

     Thats not the definition of fascism. A political movement that wants a particular group dead may be fascism it may not, depending on if it has the other elements of fascism. A movement can be fascist and not have any group they want dead, likewise a movement can want a group dead and not be fascist.

     So you arent going to advance your point for arguing for a completely unrelated point.

     @volkris @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     Hyolobrika (hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 09:27:24 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris

     If I or someone else try to execute my view that you should die by attacking you, I think you are justified in self-defense, don’t you?

     I don’t think that contradicts the general principle of liberty.

     Likewise if a political movement decides that your kind should die or otherwise be oppressed.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 09:38:57 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @Hyolobrika

     Use a better dictionary, the free dictionary is one of the worst... try mariam webster or one of the more respected one.. the definition is similar but its a bit off here. Fashism doesnt need to be a dictator, only autocratic, which is usually dictators but not limited to it.

     Also notice the part you highlight is listed as "typically" .. meaning it is **not** a required element of fascism, but common to many forms.

     @volkris @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     Hyolobrika (hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 09:39:02 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris

     https://www.thefreedictionary.com/fascism

     fas·cism (făsh′ĭz′əm) n. 1a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

     (Emphasis mine)

     I still don’t think having a perfect democracy is worth allowing that to happen.

     To be clear, I’m not in favour of suppressing fascist beliefs. Just not allowing them to have power.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 09:52:11 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @volkris

     Your friend would not be within the norm for political science opinions.

     The ideological movements of Benito Mussolini (1883–1945) and Adolf Hitler (1889–1945) can be classified as paradigmatic instances of Fascism and National Socialism. There are enough similarities between these two schools of thought to justify calling it a single ideology, and one that contains a mélange of ideas that renders it unique in the history of thought.

     There are a number of headings under which this ideology (hereinafter simply referred to as Fascism) can beneficially be studied, and they include anti-liberalism and anti-Marxism, the veneration of the nation and state, the leadership principle, racism, the rejection of procedural and substantive justice, autarky (self-sufficiency), and corporativism.” — H.B. McCullough, Political Ideologies, Chapter 7, pg. 132

     @Hyolobrika @realcaseyrollins

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     volkris@qoto.org's status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 09:52:13 JST volkris

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika

     @Hyolobrika @freemo

     I always find definitional arguments to be a bit uninteresting, but FWIW the professional, trained historian, academic friends of mine have mentioned that fascism is basically a useless word historically because it doesn’t have a workable, agreed upon definition, so they sound like they would rather people just never use that word again unless maybe in reference to Mussolini specifically.

     @realcaseyrollins

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     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 09:54:32 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @Hyolobrika

     Actuallyt he definition both of us provided are pretty much in agreement. The big difference is rather small, yours said "dictator" when it should have said "autocratic" which includes dictators.

     @volkris @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     Hyolobrika (hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 09:54:37 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris
     >so they sound like they would rather people just never use that word again unless maybe in reference to Mussolini specifically.
     I think that's a good idea. Let's do that.
     
     I mean, we certainly can't agree on a definition in this thread, nor (I've noticed) anywhere.
   • Embed this notice
     volkris@qoto.org's status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 09:58:06 JST volkris

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika

     @freemo

     Notice that I used the plural 🙂
     This is not merely one friend, but the prospective offered by many different working historians during their get togethers on, for example, the sidelines of conferences.

     @Hyolobrika @realcaseyrollins

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     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 10:00:17 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @volkris

     The fact that its more than one friend doesnt really change things. Our friends generally represent people of some similar character, and thus tend to agree and show patterns that do not reflect the general population.

     The point is, Fascism is used quite often and found to be a valuable term among the overwhelming majority of political science experts. No doubt some may not like the term as well. I mean some electrical engineers hate using “j” for the imaginary number too :)

     @Hyolobrika @realcaseyrollins

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     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 10:02:20 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @Hyolobrika

     Right so you think they should be barred on their opinions, which is why I disagree with you. Obviously you should make dictators illegal in your constitution, which should be democratically free to be revoked and modified. But that is not the same as saying that you should bar a politician from office simply for WANTING to be a dictator. In that case we just shouldnt elect them.

     Thought policing is about as fascist as you can get.. blocking people because of their **opinions** from the right to a fair and free election is just a horrible idea.

     @volkris @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     Hyolobrika (hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 10:02:24 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris
     The point I was making to @freemo was that if a candidate or party want to do sufficiently bad things (such as killing people, or preventing people from having opinions, among other things) I don't think they should be allowed to have that power, regardless of how many other people want them to have that power, because that would be the majority oppressing and/or killing (albeit indirectly) the minority.
     However, **they are still allowed to hold those opinions**, I just don't think they should be trusted with power.
     I don't really care what you call it.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 10:03:31 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @volkris

     Thats what im saying, im fine with a constitution amendment making dictators illegal, im not ok with a law/amendment that makes it illegal to hold office simply for your opinions on dictatorship.

     @Hyolobrika @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     volkris@qoto.org's status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 10:03:32 JST volkris

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika

     @Hyolobrika maybe the thing that you are missing is that in a system like the US they don’t get that power merely because they get elected.

     In the US it is fundamental to the system that no, we absolutely don’t trust ANYONE with such power.

     It doesn’t matter if you get elected, it doesn’t matter if you really really want the power, it doesn’t matter if you think you have the power, you still don’t have the power, because the US system was designed specifically to make sure you don’t have that power.

     That’s a huge problem with this whole “ democracy is on the ballot” nonsense. No, it’s not, because the US system was designed specifically to make such a thing impossible.

     So I would say that if the people want to elect somebody promising things that they wouldn’t have the authority to do at all, then the people are wasting their votes and they’re going to be disappointed, but that’s really the long and short of it.

     Might as well vote for the candidate that is promising to flap his arms and fly to the ceiling.

     We should absolutely educate the public on civics so that they know those promises are unfulfillable, but if they want to vote for someone based on a promise that he can’t keep, well…

     @freemo @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     volkris@qoto.org's status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 10:05:27 JST volkris

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika

     @freemo Yeah, the way I figure if we elect someone to office who is really into dictatorship, well, that’s really going to suck for them because they are going to spend every day in the Oval Office lamenting that they don’t have dictatorial powers

     We probably shouldn’t elect such a person, but if we do, honestly that person is probably going to be the worst off from it.

     @Hyolobrika @realcaseyrollins

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     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 10:07:05 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @volkris

     Exactly, I dont think we should elect someone like that, but im not interested int hought policing either.

     @Hyolobrika @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 10:11:05 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @Hyolobrika

     The key here is intent vs what they can do... like protecting the system from actual dictators 100%... preventhing someone who just thinks dictatorship is a cool idea, but otherwise cant actually become one... like sure thats sleezy but ok.

     @volkris @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     Hyolobrika (hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 10:11:08 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris
     I guess it would be more necessary to do that in a country that works differently to how @volkris described.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 10:26:54 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika
     • volkris

     @volkris

     Keep in mind there are checks and balances beyond just congress.

     @Hyolobrika @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     volkris@qoto.org's status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 10:26:55 JST volkris

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika

     @Hyolobrika (ok fine I suppose I should correct my statement that there are some limited authorities that don’t require Congress, but they are extremely limited :) )

     @freemo @realcaseyrollins

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     volkris@qoto.org's status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 10:26:56 JST volkris

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • Hyolobrika

     @Hyolobrika Oh, it’s one of the main areas I nerd out on, so I could talk about it all day 🙂

     I also think it’s fascinating to contrast the US system against the UK system, the role that the written Constitution plays in contrast to the British system of fundamental law.

     If you’re really interested I could suggest some readings, particularly from the federalist papers, a set of documents written by the people who wrote the US Constitution explaining exactly what they were thinking and how they imagined the US system functioning.

     But yeah, in a sentence the US president has absolutely no authority that hasn’t been granted to him by the Constitution plus the Congress. Any action he attempts to take that is not granted by both is illegal and anybody carrying out such orders would be carrying out illegal orders.

     So it doesn’t matter how much a president might want to be a dictator. The entire massive institution that is the federal government is structured such that dictatorial leanings would be smothered.

     @freemo @realcaseyrollins

   • Embed this notice
     Hyolobrika (hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Monday, 29-Jan-2024 10:27:00 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • realcaseyrollins ✝️
     • volkris
     That's interesting. I don't live in the US so I don't know how it works there. To be fair, I don't know exactly how everything works here in the UK either. I guess I have picked up some ideas here and there from reading stuff; some right, some wrong.
     
     I wish my school had taught civics now.