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1. Embed this notice
   stux⚡ (stux@mstdn.social)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 20:50:36 JST stux⚡

   I remember some evil humans doing the same in the last World War

   Talking about sinking to a new low

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 20:50:33 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     @stux

     Is your objection to execution by gas, or execution at all?

     I agree that the death penalty is wrong. But if you are going to have the death penalty gas is probably the most humane way to do it.

   • Embed this notice
     stux⚡ (stux@mstdn.social)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 20:50:35 JST stux⚡

     in reply to

     I meant: "The United States of Germany" sorry

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 20:52:56 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     @stux

     Well we certainly agree that execution is bad,..

     But how is gas worse simply for being a "nazi thing"... wouldnt using another method where people suffer more but its not a "nazi thing" be far worse? Like are we really prioritizing morality by association over actual morality based on suffering?

   • Embed this notice
     stux⚡ (stux@mstdn.social)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 20:52:57 JST stux⚡

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo At all, it's super hypocrite

     But gass makes it a lot worse..

     That's a nazi thing

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 20:57:45 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     @stux

     > I'm sure a toxic cocktail or pills or whatever must be a much humane method but not gass

     What? No, thats a horrible way to die. It takes hours, you get sick, you throw up, you have time to feel the effects... god that sounds like torture.

     Nothing personal but this is why toxic identity politics is so bad... caring more about associations and how something looks to the point of torturing people to kill them rather than the humane way to do it simply cause "the nazis did it that way" is just, self destructive way to reason about the world.

     No no no, please, dont use that logic ever again im begging you.

   • Embed this notice
     stux⚡ (stux@mstdn.social)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 20:57:46 JST stux⚡

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo Nicee!

     Well, it's about the method in general

     I'm sure a toxic cocktail or pills or whatever must be a much humane method but not gass

     When a government executes prisoners it's not a developed country

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 20:59:08 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • zeitverschreib [mastodon]

     @zeitverschreib

     Most AR-15 in the USA are used for small game, it isnt even powerful enough or suited for large game. Frankly, its just far too weak of a rife to be the best choice here, you'd want somethign more powerful to be humane.

     @stux

   • Embed this notice
     zeitverschreib [mastodon] (zeitverschreib@social.zwoelfdreifuenfundvierzig.net)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 20:59:20 JST zeitverschreib [mastodon]

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo @stux Slowly suffocating is humane?

     Why not use the US weapon of choice, an AR-15? A few rounds through the head should do the trick within .5 seconds.

     </sarcasm>

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:00:31 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     @stux You have to see the harm.. you just suggested a method of effectively torturing people to death instead of using gas simply because gas is associated with nazis, you completely abandoned suffering as a top concern because you followed the logic of "Hitler liked birthday cake so birthday cake is bad" (just the more emotional variant of that argument).

   • Embed this notice
     stux⚡ (stux@mstdn.social)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:00:32 JST stux⚡

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo yikes

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:02:15 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • zeitverschreib [mastodon]

     @stux

     Huh? The majority of school shooters dont use AR-15, likely for this reaason. Moreover most school shooters have never owned a gun before (by virtue of the fact of being a kid) so they arent picking guns because they are the most effective at killing, they are picking them because they are the only one they can get their hands on (and small-game guns are the most common in the usa due to being the most affordable)

     @zeitverschreib

   • Embed this notice
     stux⚡ (stux@mstdn.social)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:02:17 JST stux⚡

     in reply to

     • zeitverschreib [mastodon]
     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo @zeitverschreib Uhuh...

     Is what every school shooter said

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:03:11 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • zeitverschreib [mastodon]

     @zeitverschreib

     Would be a much better choice indeed.

     @stux

   • Embed this notice
     zeitverschreib [mastodon] (zeitverschreib@social.zwoelfdreifuenfundvierzig.net)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:03:13 JST zeitverschreib [mastodon]

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo

     I stand corrected. Let's opt for the Desert Eagle.

     @stux

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:03:49 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • zeitverschreib [mastodon]

     @stux

     No, desert eagle is a hanggun. Very powerful, but short range.

     @zeitverschreib

   • Embed this notice
     stux⚡ (stux@mstdn.social)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:03:50 JST stux⚡

     in reply to

     • zeitverschreib [mastodon]
     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @zeitverschreib @freemo Super handy for if you wanna kill your neighbour

     3 blocks over!

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:05:29 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • zeitverschreib [mastodon]

     @stux

     Hahaha I wish guns worked the way Europeans imagined they worked :)

     @zeitverschreib

   • Embed this notice
     stux⚡ (stux@mstdn.social)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:05:30 JST stux⚡

     in reply to

     • zeitverschreib [mastodon]
     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo @zeitverschreib It'll blast the houses in between so the neighbour gets either killed by the bullet or falling debris 😆

     It's destruction aaaaaallll the waaay

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:24:11 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Jeff Brown

     @jeff

     I am a technical diver myself, full trimix.

     I agree gas-based death is easily the most humane ways to go, and nitrogen narcosis one of the best.

     That said you only get nitrogen narcosis at high pressures ordinary nitrogen hypoxia is humane but not at all like narcosis.

     @stux

   • Embed this notice
     Jeff Brown (jeff@honeytree.social)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:24:12 JST Jeff Brown

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo @stux

     +1 on @freemo - capital punishment is generally very wrong.

     However as someone that has experienced the "Martini effect" of Nitrogen Narcosis then Nitrogen Hypoixia may be one of most humane ways to do it.

     As a long time diver and Instructor Trainer I can tell you that nitrogen narcosis is a real thing... and of the "ways to exit this world" it would be in my top 10 list.

     https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK470304/#:~:text=In%20underwater%20diving%2C%20narcosis%20(nitrogen,that%20alters%20a%20diver%27s%20consciousness.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:24:50 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Dis

     @dis

     Generally @stux is a good guy, so I wouldnt be so mean to him. I do agree it was a very very bad take though.

   • Embed this notice
     Dis (dis@infosec.town)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:24:51 JST Dis

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @stux @freemo
     You were the one who insisted the association with shitheads outweighs all other concerns.

   • Embed this notice
     stux⚡ (stux@mstdn.social)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:24:53 JST stux⚡

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • Dis

     @dis @freemo Yeah cause riding the train and killing people with gass is the same thing :nkoFacepalm2:

   • Embed this notice
     Dis (dis@infosec.town)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:24:54 JST Dis

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @stux @freemo
     I drive everywhere because those shitheads used trains and I don't want to be like them. /s
     
     I'm also a diver and colloquially narcosis is "fine". Skips the bad parts like you seem to imagine pills do.
     
     (No political opinion offered re the morality of it. Merely the physiology.)

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:25:10 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • zeitverschreib [mastodon]

     @stux

     Hahaha :)

     @zeitverschreib

   • Embed this notice
     stux⚡ (stux@mstdn.social)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:25:11 JST stux⚡

     in reply to

     • zeitverschreib [mastodon]
     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo @zeitverschreib Hahaha nooo, better not :blobcatgiggle:

     We only have them in games so we can make them however we want :ed_grin:

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:25:34 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • zeitverschreib [mastodon]

     @zeitverschreib

     Indeed.

     @stux

   • Embed this notice
     zeitverschreib [mastodon] (zeitverschreib@social.zwoelfdreifuenfundvierzig.net)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:25:36 JST zeitverschreib [mastodon]

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo

     And probably more cost efficient. One .50 AE round should take care of business.

     @stux

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:28:10 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Dis

     @stux

     The thing is its the association with killing people that is the important part here... making the gas the important part and not the killing is really just a bad take.

     Killing people like the nazis is bad... making people breath a gas (without killing them) is not bad, despite the fact that the nazis made people breath gases. However making people breath gases that kill them is wrong, but because it kills them, not because they are breathing gases.

     @dis

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:29:42 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Jeff Brown

     @jeff

     I am very resistant to nitrogen narcosis. I can breath air right up to the oxygen toxicity limit pressures while compltely ignoring the nitrogen narcosis... have hundreds of dives logged right at that line.

     I feel like for me it wouldnt be quite as enjoyable :)

     @stux

   • Embed this notice
     Jeff Brown (jeff@honeytree.social)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:29:43 JST Jeff Brown

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo @stux

     Yep.. I was Instructor trainer all the up to several closed circuit rebreathers.

     I'd take a nitrogen / oxygen hit at high partial pressures anyway.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:52:50 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • MMR Nmd

     @MMRnmd

     I'm reading it now, but god this is why I hate news and most written articles... Soooo many wasted words, they could have summarized this whole article in like 5 bullet points with references.

     Again nothing against you but all those words talked about smith, a bunch of stuff related to how needles and injections dont work, and then talked about how they are moving to nitrogen hypoxia.. It really made a very piss poor attempt at arguing why its worse, just a bunch of things that his lawyers are trying in court and some off remarks from some random dude with an opinion....

     How is that forwarding the conversation with anything fact-based on the analysis of the use of nitrogen gas? We have tons of deaths already caused by it and know fairly well what those effects look like. So I dont get how someones lawyer trying to make an argument (and failing) is relevant honestly.

     @stux

   • Embed this notice
     MMR Nmd (mmrnmd@todon.eu)'s status on Thursday, 25-Jan-2024 21:52:52 JST MMR Nmd

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo We're talking about Nitrogen Gas, have a look at the article, this is obnoxious
     https://theintercept.com/2024/01/23/alabama-nitrogen-gas-execution-kenneth-smith/
     @stux

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 01:04:56 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Wolfgang Lucht
     • ≠ Brett Stevens ≠

     @amerika

     Not a fiction at all, painless euthanasia is very doable. A piston to the head is absolutely less humane than gas.

     @W_Lucht @stux

   • Embed this notice
     ≠ Brett Stevens ≠ (amerika@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 01:04:57 JST ≠ Brett Stevens ≠

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • Wolfgang Lucht
     @W_Lucht @freemo @stux
     
     If you want a painless execution, lol, that's a fiction.
     
     But relatively humane? Use one of those captive bolt pistols we use for livestock.
   • Embed this notice
     Wolfgang Lucht (w_lucht@mstdn.social)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 01:04:59 JST Wolfgang Lucht

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo
     You argue based on false premises.
     "Veterinarians in the US and across Europe have ruled out nitrogen as a euthanasia method for most animals other than pigs. Laboratory studies have shown it can cause distress in many species and scientists largely recommend against it on ethical grounds."
     https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/24/supreme-court-nitrogen-gas-execution-case
     Humans should not kill. It's called civilization.
     @stux

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 01:08:27 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Wolfgang Lucht

     @W_Lucht

     A friend of mine commited suicide on nitrogen gas. I can say, with remorse, I have witnessed a man die on it once. It was evident to me this was one of the most peaceful ways to die.

     If you want to argue that nitrogen is a stressful way to die, please post the study, news articles are not valid sources of scientific opinion (in fact they are quite bad)

     @stux

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 01:08:57 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Wolfgang Lucht
     • ≠ Brett Stevens ≠

     @amerika

     Why do you assume not killing a criminal equates to them running among your people. Presumably anyone who would be worthy of a death sentence would be getting life in prison instead, so regardless they wont be running among our people.

     @W_Lucht @stux

   • Embed this notice
     ≠ Brett Stevens ≠ (amerika@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 01:08:58 JST ≠ Brett Stevens ≠

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • Wolfgang Lucht
     @W_Lucht @freemo @stux
     
     I think we kill too few. If you let criminals run among your people, you have just told your people that they are worthless and deserve to be exploited.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 01:09:28 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Wolfgang Lucht
     • ≠ Brett Stevens ≠
     • Ruru! 🦉

     @lonelyowl

     They arent criminals, since its legal. But I think what you mean is immoral or perhaps a murderer, If that is what you meant then we agree, yes, an executioner is a immoral murderer.

     @amerika @W_Lucht @stux

   • Embed this notice
     Ruru! 🦉 (lonelyowl@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 01:09:31 JST Ruru! 🦉

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • Wolfgang Lucht
     • ≠ Brett Stevens ≠
     @freemo @amerika @W_Lucht @stux
     
     Executors in prisons who kill people who have done nothing wrong to them are also criminals in a way :thonk:
     
     And the glowies are just mafia.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 01:21:10 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Wolfgang Lucht
     • halogen alchemist

     @black6

     Thats exactly my point, as someone highly trained in breathing in nitrogen rich environments and someone who watched someone die from it, I can tell you it is clearly one of the most humane ways to go.

     Thats why this guys post about it being inhumane is highly questionable, especially the blurb about "many scientists" without an actual study to back it up.

     @stux @W_Lucht

   • Embed this notice
     halogen alchemist (black6@gleasonator.com)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 01:21:11 JST halogen alchemist

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • Wolfgang Lucht
     @freemo @W_Lucht @stux It's widely preached that nitrogen is one of the most dangerous chemicals we work with at the plant. Nitrogen-rich atmospheres feel, look, and smell the same as normal air, so one can be asphyxiated without warning. The pain of suffocation comes from CO2 buildup in the body, which doesn't happen when breathing in a nitrogen rich environment. You just lay down and go to sleep. There are (too) many examples of this in the CPI.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 02:28:16 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Menno

     @MennoWolff

     No thats not the issue, many states are still doing lethal injections and have had no trouble with supply. The issue is that we have had many lethal injections that didnt work either because a vein couldnt be found or other issues, often resulting in undue suffering. They are moving over to nitrogen gas to reduce suffering such as those unfortunate incidents.

     @stux

   • Embed this notice
     Menno (mennowolff@ohai.social)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 02:28:17 JST Menno

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @stux @freemo
     You realize that they used to perform lethal injections, but they were no longer able to get the pharmaceuticals to do that. This is because providers worldwide decided not to cooperate.
     They claim this is a humane way, because people apparently simply pass out by inhaling the nitrogen gas.
     It's still stupid, but it's not *entirely* their fault that they had to resort to this method.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 02:42:35 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Menno

     @MennoWolff

     You’re right. I forget which state this was, but they screwed up several times, with this SAME guy!😲

     Indeed, and with other people in different states in a similar way. Thus the main reason for moving to gas, to prevent these sort of fuck ups and reduce the suffering of people we kill. While I cant approve of the death penalty if we are going to have the death penalty this is the correct and more humane way to do it.

     But the availability of the drugs does play a role. Some states stocked up before suppliers stopped delivering.

     Yes and no, there have been drug shortages in the past, but nothing that is related to whats going on here, and was very trivially resolved. You are thinking of the fact that sodium pentathal used to be used as the sedative component of lethal injection which had supply issues in the past, largely because it isnt used for much of anything. All they did was switch drugs to pentobarbital which has no real supply issues.

     There are plenty of lethal injection options, most of which are trivial to obtain.

     This is the biggest irony to me: they look to big pharma companies to supply the drugs which are made with the best quality control, because they are not allowed to ask a local redneck chemist to make some of the same drug. That would be “unsafe” 🥴😵💫

     There is some irony there indeed :)

     @stux

   • Embed this notice
     Menno (mennowolff@ohai.social)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 02:42:37 JST Menno

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo
     You're right. I forget which state this was, but they screwed up several times, with this SAME guy!😲
     But the availability of the drugs does play a role. Some states stocked up before suppliers stopped delivering.
     This is the biggest irony to me: they look to big pharma companies to supply the drugs which are made with the best quality control, because they are not allowed to ask a local redneck chemist to make some of the same drug. That would be "unsafe" 🥴😵💫
     @stux

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 03:17:15 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Menno

     @MennoWolff

     Sadly the news is almost always wrong in 80% of the content in any article. Reading hte news these days is the best way to be uninformed.

     Chances are, as with all news articles, it made no effort to actual explain to you the facts. Instead it likely had some agenda it was trying to sell you on and make that point. Likely either how much america sucks, or how offended we should be by the death penalty. So actually explaining it honestly wouldnt have served whatever the intended purpose is.

     @stux

   • Embed this notice
     Menno (mennowolff@ohai.social)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 03:17:17 JST Menno

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo @stux
     Thanks for the clarification.
     I'm pretty sure that at the time, whatever article I read explained it that way.
     Imho, trying to off someone with N2 is just as prone to f*ckups as having a machine administer an injection, but hey.
     We'll see how this pans out. Let's just hope the US will realize that harsh punishment doesn't deter people, especially if they are desperate.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 03:18:28 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Menno

     @MennoWolff

     As for being prone to fuckups.. its hard for me to see how. All of the messups for lethal injectionsa re easily forseen by anyone who has given an injection. I honestly cant think of too many ways N2 could could fuck up.

     @stux

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 03:47:11 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Menno

     @MennoWolff

     Meh. How is making a machine that administers a fluid intravenously complicated?

     I take it you arent in the medical industry and have never had to give an IV based on this statement. As I said to those who are knowledgable on this the answer is many ways:

     1) Finding a vein, this can be hard on many people. In the hospital it isnt uncommon that an expert wont be able to find a vein on either arm or even the hands.

     2) Once a vein is found it may not work, for example it may be a collapsed vein and wont take the drug.

     3) If there is damage to the vein it may leak into surrounding tissue causing a less than lethal dose, or cause the death to be prolonged

     4) if you miss the vein you may accidentally inject into the muscle or fat, again causing a less than lethal dose or prolonged death

     5) Since the lethal injection is a multi-stage dose you have multiple chances for error that can cause suffering. For example a sedative is administered first, then the lethal injections. If the first stage breaks and the second succeeds it can lead to suffering.

     6) Because of the increased complexity drug interactions can prevent or effect the first stage and thus cause suffering int he second stage.

     7) You can have something clog up the system or a motor break or something, since its an orcastra of events this can lead to all sorts of suffering or issues

     All of the above more or less doesnt apply to N2.

   • Embed this notice
     Menno (mennowolff@ohai.social)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 03:47:13 JST Menno

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo
     Meh. How is making a machine that administers a fluid intravenously complicated? I would not have guessed that that could go wrong. Doctors and nurses apply IVs literally millions of times each day. I had never heard of blocked veins before that, nor would I guess that such a machine stops working properly.
     ...

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 03:48:52 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Menno

     @MennoWolff

     Gas flow will be very high so none of the examples you give will matter. Even if all that happens he will still have a lethal dose of N2.

     Also N2 has sedative effects and there is no suffering when you have low but sufficient oxygene. So even in the worst case its sedative effects will slow breathing and result in the situation still killing him humanely.

     @stux

   • Embed this notice
     Menno (mennowolff@ohai.social)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 03:48:54 JST Menno

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo
     Apparently this guy will have to breathe nitrogen through a mask fitted to his face.
     If he starts to breathe heavily, he might suck in extra air from outside the mask. If he contorts his face, it might make an opening.
     It beats me why they don't just sedate these people and simply chop off their head or so.
     @stux

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 03:53:42 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Menno

     @MennoWolff

     > It beats me why they don't just sedate these people and simply chop off their head or so.

     Because there is more risk of suffering. Sedation step might not work right. It also disfigured the body for a proper funeral and is messy. A single gas that has both sedative and lethal effects is the lowest risk and most humane of any options. Particularly when its biologically simple so has no potential for drug interactions or an immune system response.

     @stux

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 04:22:22 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Menno

     @MennoWolff

     I am notoriously difficult to find a vein on. I have been in emergency situations where they needed to get an IV in me and they couldnt do it even after 3 different people tried.

     But what are you even trying to accomplish here by finding ways to force a lethal injection to work? We have a far more effective way that just works as-is with absolutely none of these risks and is more humane... why are you trying to wrangle a way to keep injections alive at all?

   • Embed this notice
     Menno (mennowolff@ohai.social)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 04:22:24 JST Menno

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo
     Re 5 just use one line one needle. How hard can it be?
     Re 6 yes. But they should know what an inmate is taking, right? Sure, some drugs could counteract e.g. the sedative, but seems to me that that would be deliberate sabotage by the inmate.
     Re 7. They could simply do exactly the same on both arms. Also prevents users like 1,2 and 4.
     2/2

   • Embed this notice
     Menno (mennowolff@ohai.social)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 04:22:26 JST Menno

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo
     Still not entirely convinced that this somehow makes it too complicated.
     Re 1 and 2. I get that, but people are literally covered in veins. They can find one, and test it before the go ahead.
     Re 3, leaking could happen, but it would have to be a whole lot of leakage before it becomes non-lethal. Afaik, overkill is the way they go.
     Re 4. See 1. They need a skilled person, that's all.
     1/2

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 04:25:17 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • zeitverschreib [mastodon]
     • no no no mister fishbed

     @Fishbed

     100% spot on.

     I suspect what is happening here is Stux is actually a good person. Like any good person you hear about the death penalty and you are appalled. He has an emotional reaction (a very justified one). Then in that state he hears about gassing, and rightfully associates it with Nazis. He should be associating the murder with nazi's but the gas part is what stands out for some reason. So now he is offfended at the gas choice, in reality I think he is just offended by the murdering and the association with nazis is just too easy to make the association even though its not the part that matters.

     Stux has the tendency to get a little emotional when literal nazi shit is going down, and well, can we even blame him?

     @stux @zeitverschreib

   • Embed this notice
     no no no mister fishbed (fishbed@squawk.mytransponder.com)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 04:25:18 JST no no no mister fishbed

     in reply to

     • zeitverschreib [mastodon]
     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @stux @zeitverschreib @freemo Nitrogen gas is much more humane than the lethal injected cocktail (which is speculated to merely paralyze the patient and put them through burning pain qs it spreads) and is well known to be humane when done right (hence the suicide pod proposal using it).

     Killing people at all is the big issue here, but I'm not complaining that more people are drawn into the debate.

   • Embed this notice
     stux⚡ (stux@mstdn.social)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 04:25:19 JST stux⚡

     in reply to

     • zeitverschreib [mastodon]
     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @zeitverschreib @freemo Or burn them alive, freeze them, string 'em up etc etc

     About the same category :pooh_scared:

   • Embed this notice
     no no no mister fishbed (fishbed@squawk.mytransponder.com)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 04:27:31 JST no no no mister fishbed

     in reply to

     • zeitverschreib [mastodon]
     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo @stux @zeitverschreib
     >Stux is actually a good person

     In other words, water is wet

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 04:27:31 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • zeitverschreib [mastodon]
     • no no no mister fishbed

     @Fishbed

     Hahah indeed :)

     @stux @zeitverschreib

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 07:13:30 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Menno

     @MennoWolff fair then, i mean look the real solution is not to murder people for murdering people...

   • Embed this notice
     Menno (mennowolff@ohai.social)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 07:13:32 JST Menno

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo
     Yeah, understood.
     I'm not trying to keep it alive. Far from it, I'm just ranting against the stupidity of it all.
     Basically they are switching to another so far untested method. I get your stance of "what could go wrong?" I just see the bears on the road.
     I think the real issue is that these procedures are a fixed set of steps, for obvious reasons, but changing any of those steps is apparently too complicated to do, so they go with a radically different method and hope that works.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 07:44:50 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Menno

     @MennoWolff We have better welfare than you might think. Honestly the lower middle class in some weird ways have it worse than the poor.

   • Embed this notice
     Menno (mennowolff@ohai.social)'s status on Friday, 26-Jan-2024 07:44:51 JST Menno

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo
     Yup. See my earlier comment, deterrents don't work when people are desperate.
     And is easy to become desperate in the US.