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1. Embed this notice
   Scott Santens (scottsantens@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 07-Dec-2023 06:57:45 JST Scott Santens

   Unconditional basic income isn't just dollar bills. It's freedom, trust, security, and power. It's a world where your value isn't measured by societal expectations. The old regime shivers at this shift – they'd sooner dub us idle than confront their fear of an unleashed and empowered society.

   #BasicIncome #UBI

   • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 07-Dec-2023 06:57:44 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     @scottsantens Support should be conditional, not a free ride. I will always support good conditional welfare programs but UBI is not the right solution or direction to our problems.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 07-Dec-2023 07:52:42 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Ry

     @RyanbeLyin

     I have spent a life time trying to help get people out of homelessness. Many times I have taken homeless people in, given them a home, money for education (if they want to go that route) or other training, and all the support and resources they could need to get on their feet.

     My expiuernce is always the same, if you just given them resources without conditions on it without fail they will just waste the resources and do little if anything to get out of the situation. However when reasonable conditions are put on the support, conditions which require the person to become more marketable and skilled, then there is a fairly decent successrate.

     My position is simple, I will not enable poor people to keep repeating the same bad habits and perpetuate the problem, even making it worse. If I help someone I make sure I **actually** help and not make things worse through enablement.

     @scottsantens

   • Embed this notice
     Ry (ryanbelyin@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 07-Dec-2023 07:52:43 JST Ry

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo @scottsantens The original poster stated their reasonings that UBI is what we need, including because it would facilitate "a world where your value isn't measured by societal expectations". I am wondering what your reasoning is as to why UBI is not what we need.

   • Embed this notice
     Dan Morris (coldfish@sfba.social)'s status on Thursday, 07-Dec-2023 09:07:24 JST Dan Morris

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo @scottsantens I used to believe this, but then the means-testing becomes a massive mess and subject to abuse. It's much much much cheaper to just give everyone a chunk and be done with it. "You a billionare? Here's your UBI. ". "You on the street? Here's your UBI"

     It's not a free ride either. It's the difference between life and death for a lot of people.

     And a LOT of families and friend groups have someone who's just beyond help. They just can't support them anymore due to drugs or mental issues or whatever, but feel horrible knowing they're on the street. To be able to have my idiot cousin come to me and say, "hey, I need some money to eat", and me being able to say, "Dude, you get $x.xx each month. That's enough and you need to stay the F away from me and my family".

     It's either UBI (which I honestly don't think will work well enough) or public housing/food/medicine at some level where the biggest drug addicted idiot on the planet STILL won't be crapping on my front doorstep.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 07-Dec-2023 09:07:24 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Dan Morris

     @coldfish

     The means testing can be a source of abuse and expensive.. but since it results in actual positive results, its worth it even if it costs more.

     The whole argument that its cheaper to just uncoditionally give out the money is a poor one because we shouldnt be trying to make our help programs aas cheap as p[ossible, we should be trying to make sure they do less harm by not enabling people and ensure they do good by requiring the people get out of homelessness by putting conditions on the money that require them to be on a path out of homelessness.

     @scottsantens

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 07-Dec-2023 19:11:47 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Alexander The 1st
     • Ry

     @AT1ST

     Huh? If your laid off and find there isnt a market you then learn a skill in a market that is profitable. As stated as long as your learnign a skill the government should help you, so not sure why you think this raises an interesting point, it doesnt, my scenario would address this fine as-is

     @RyanbeLyin @scottsantens

   • Embed this notice
     Alexander The 1st (at1st@mstdn.ca)'s status on Thursday, 07-Dec-2023 19:11:48 JST Alexander The 1st

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • Ry

     @freemo @RyanbeLyin @scottsantens Query: what will you do when, after being given all those resources and education...you find yourself in any of these situations (
     https://layoffs.fyi/ )?

     Not all retraining and support is going to be successful - note that this is the *tech* sector, the sector people expect other industries to have their employees move to after automation makes *their* job redundant.

   • Embed this notice
     Alexander The 1st (at1st@mstdn.ca)'s status on Thursday, 07-Dec-2023 19:11:48 JST Alexander The 1st

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • Ry

     @freemo @RyanbeLyin @scottsantens To add to that - layoffs are actually fairly recent as a thing historically ( https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/the-history-of-the-layoff/article_8963c1b1-3903-5ec7-a9df-fca08b13ee6f.html ) - the best you see is military discharging, and *even the Romans* had an idea for supporting those who couldn't go back to their previous job; they invented the welfare system.

     To some extent, welfare is just "Insufficient UBI.", so we essentially already *do* it, just...intentionally cruelly?

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 05:28:57 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Dan Morris

     @coldfish

     This idea that giving someone support money or basic services is just enabling them is a falsehood that’s been pushed heavily over the years, yet debunked just as effectively as trickle down economics.

     Just saying a thing wont make it true. Anyone who has actively tried to help people know this is fundemental. Just giving most people free resources rarely help.

     Not to say they wont help for some people. It is usually the people who never wind up homeless, the people who get help early on before it gets too bad. But thats because the act of the getting help itself is a minor show of responsibility.

     I was living in an abandoned school bus and got the Catholic church to just give me free food. no questions asked.

     Food is different and I didnt address that. Food in the form of soup kitchens should be free and paid for. Simply because food is something you need now and need to function. So if the argument is just for free food then yea I am fine with low barrier access to soup kichens. I also wouldnt mind the government sending food boxes to more remote people.

     When I got a job, I tithed 10% of my income for a decade.

     Thats very nice of you, and i am glad you gave back. (not sarcasm)

     For years, I lived in a house that is a family home and I didn’t pay rent. I started a business and now have 2 offices, employ several people support a wife and 3 children, even taking on a foster child and supporting other family members in need.

     We both started from poverty, and there is nothign wrong with that, im glad for you.

     Did that free food and rent cause me to be a layabout or did it enable me?

     Your personal expiernces dont represent the whole, nor is it necceseraly presented in an objective way (I wouldnt know as I dont know you, but its a fair bet).

     Also was it truely free? If you had refused to work and just freeloaded and smoked weed fall day would they still have given you a place? Or was the place they gave you conditional on you showing an effort?

     I don’t think that everyone should get a free-ride, but I think people fall down and when they fall all the way down to drug addicted homelessness, that’s easily avoidable if it’s clear that there is a minimal level of food, housing and medical care easily accessible.

     We agree, I am agaisnt UBI (free money for everyone all the time no conditions). I am all for reasonable conditional welfare.

     @scottsantens

   • Embed this notice
     Dan Morris (coldfish@sfba.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 05:28:59 JST Dan Morris

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     @freemo @scottsantens

     This idea that giving someone support money or basic services is just enabling them is a falsehood that's been pushed heavily over the years, yet debunked just as effectively as trickle down economics.

     I was living in an abandoned school bus and got the Catholic church to just give me free food. no questions asked.

     When I got a job, I tithed 10% of my income for a decade.

     For years, I lived in a house that is a family home and I didn't pay rent. I started a business and now have 2 offices, employ several people support a wife and 3 children, even taking on a foster child and supporting other family members in need.

     Did that free food and rent cause me to be a layabout or did it enable me?
     
     I don't think that everyone should get a free-ride, but I think people fall down and when they fall *all the way* down to drug addicted homelessness, that's easily avoidable if it's clear that there is a minimal level of food, housing and medical care easily accessible.

   • Embed this notice
     Alexander The 1st (at1st@mstdn.ca)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 05:33:41 JST Alexander The 1st

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • Ry

     @freemo @RyanbeLyin @scottsantens My point isn't being laid off, it's learning a new skill, then getting a job in that new skill...*then* getting laid off.

     Like, really early on. Not so early on that it's actually being fired or terminated during initial early months, but within a year, or just after a year, for a skill that needs training that takes longer than a year.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 05:33:41 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Alexander The 1st
     • Ry

     @AT1ST

     My point isn’t being laid off, it’s learning a new skill, then getting a job in that new skill…then getting laid off.

     Sure and that process should be supported by welfare, which should get them through it.

     Like, really early on. Not so early on that it’s actually being fired or terminated during initial early months, but within a year, or just after a year, for a skill that needs training that takes longer than a year.

     Sure, and you should have welfare support should you be pushing forward with your career.

     @RyanbeLyin @scottsantens

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 05:34:27 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Alexander The 1st
     • Ry

     @AT1ST

     Welfare can support you while you look for that job, moot point. The discussion is about UBI vs welfare, not UBI vs nothing.

     @RyanbeLyin @scottsantens

   • Embed this notice
     Alexander The 1st (at1st@mstdn.ca)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 05:34:28 JST Alexander The 1st

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • Ry

     @freemo @RyanbeLyin @scottsantens Also, you forget that, no matter how much "Training" you do, most jobs expect you to have 3 years' work experience in the field...for entry level jobs.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 09:29:31 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Ruru! 🦉

     @lonelyowl

     That isnt the sort of conditions im talking about. The condition is not "i need the money" the condition is that you are willing to go out at invest in your career to not need the money and not just use it to coast.

     @scottsantens

   • Embed this notice
     Ruru! 🦉 (lonelyowl@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 09:29:33 JST Ruru! 🦉

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     @freemo @scottsantens
     
     Bruh
     UBI is the same as a conditional welfare benefit, only in a smart way.
     If you don't have a job you get free money, if you have a job you get free money + a salary from which tax will be deducted, and if your salary is large enough you will pay more taxes than you get free money.
     It's a welfare autobalancer!
   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 09:36:32 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Ruru! 🦉

     @lonelyowl

     This is how I wish all internet debates went :)

     @scottsantens

   • Embed this notice
     Ruru! 🦉 (lonelyowl@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 09:36:33 JST Ruru! 🦉

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     @freemo @scottsantens
     
     Usually at this point i start arguing and writing walls of text, but i'm too lazy right now 🥺
   • Embed this notice
     Alexander The 1st (at1st@mstdn.ca)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 13:25:21 JST Alexander The 1st

     in reply to

     • 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
     • Ry

     @freemo @RyanbeLyin @scottsantens I think you vastly overestimate how much welfare pays out.

     It does not cover rent, let alone anything else that you generally need to both get a job, and then retain said job.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 13:25:21 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Alexander The 1st
     • Ry

     @AT1ST

     Huh, I literally grew up on welfare until I used it to get out of welfare... I think I know quite well what it pays considering.

     @RyanbeLyin @scottsantens

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Friday, 08-Dec-2023 13:26:06 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • Alexander The 1st
     • Ry

     @AT1ST

     I also dont recall making any assertions about what welfare actually pays.. I made quite a few statements about what it should pay....

     @RyanbeLyin @scottsantens