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   Andrew Helwer (ahelwer@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 01:58:20 JST Andrew Helwer

   My understanding of :guix: and :nixos: are that they explicitly pin the versions of absolutely everything & their transitive dependency graphs, all the way down to the compiler versions used to build a specific software commit. But how do they handle bootstrapping compilers?

   #nix #guix

   • Embed this notice
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 01:58:13 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • Ludovic Courtès
     • 🍒🌳 Hartmut Goebel
     @civodul @ahelwer @kirschwipfel Isn't he still "The Chief GNUisance" as put on https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-structure.html ?
   • Embed this notice
     Andrew Helwer (ahelwer@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 01:58:15 JST Andrew Helwer

     in reply to

     • Ludovic Courtès
     • 🍒🌳 Hartmut Goebel

     @kirschwipfel actually I just learned Stallman is still involved in GNU, I thought he got kicked out. So don't think I'll be checking out guix.

     Edit: Although @civodul did sign the letter asking Stallman to step down. So idk

   • Embed this notice
     Ludovic Courtès (civodul@toot.aquilenet.fr)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 01:58:15 JST Ludovic Courtès

     in reply to

     • 🍒🌳 Hartmut Goebel

     @ahelwer Yeah, you might be confusing GNU and FSF (understandably so), plus GNU is divided on this topic.

     I’m among those who called for him to step down and later attempted to start an alternative, cooperative governance structure for GNU:
     https://guix.gnu.org/en/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/
     https://gnu.tools/

     @kirschwipfel

   • Embed this notice
     Andrew Helwer (ahelwer@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 01:58:17 JST Andrew Helwer

     in reply to

     • 🍒🌳 Hartmut Goebel

     @kirschwipfel Wow this is incredibly cool, I think you just convinced me to become a guix person lol

   • Embed this notice
     🍒🌳 Hartmut Goebel (kirschwipfel@nerdculture.de)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 01:58:19 JST 🍒🌳 Hartmut Goebel

     in reply to

     Regarding guix: This is is a huge effort, still work in process, anyhow great progress has been achieved in the last months and years. Read more about this at https://guix.gnu.org/de/blog/2023/the-full-source-bootstrap-building-from-source-all-the-way-down/

     Regarding #nix, I don't know whether they actually try since they even include blobs provided by others (e.g. proprietary software).
     @ahelwer

   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 17:23:22 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Ludovic Courtès
     • 🍒🌳 Hartmut Goebel

     @civodul @ahelwer @kirschwipfel did this alternative governance structure ever go anywhere? Did you consider spinning projects out of GNU? For instance, I bet Guix would do just fine independently of GNU.

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 17:36:35 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • Ludovic Courtès
     • 🍒🌳 Hartmut Goebel
     @civodul @ahelwer @kirschwipfel And personally I don't think I can really acknowledge GNU Assembly as effective when the gnu-structure document clearly describes a top-down model where RMS is dictator for life and software maintainers not having independence.
   • Embed this notice
     Ludovic Courtès (civodul@toot.aquilenet.fr)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 22:48:06 JST Ludovic Courtès

     in reply to

     • Drew DeVault
     • 🍒🌳 Hartmut Goebel

     @drewdevault This governance structure didn’t go anywhere, primarily because there’s a lack of cohesion and lack of incentives.

     In practice, whether or not Guix or GCC are “within GNU” makes little difference. Guix has its own governance, its code of conduct, its contribution guidelines, etc. It’s de facto independent.

     GNU has never been really structured/organized in fact.

     @kirschwipfel @ahelwer

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   • Embed this notice
     Daphne Preston-Kendal (dpk@chaos.social)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 22:49:38 JST Daphne Preston-Kendal

     in reply to

     • Ludovic Courtès
     • Drew DeVault
     • 🍒🌳 Hartmut Goebel

     @civodul @drewdevault @kirschwipfel @ahelwer As a Guile user and potential Guix user, the fact that rms could potentially exercise his tendency to stick his nose into decision-making at any time (and has stuck his nose into Guile decision-making in the past) is something I’m wary of. (Admittedly, I also use GNU Emacs, where he’s far more involved. But I use it *despite* the governance.)

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 22:50:20 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Ludovic Courtès
     • 🍒🌳 Hartmut Goebel
     • Daphne Preston-Kendal

     @civodul @dpk @ahelwer @kirschwipfel also re: gnu.org changes; gnu.org is still closely tied with and strongly endorses the FSF, including calls to donate to it and become a member

   • Embed this notice
     Ludovic Courtès (civodul@toot.aquilenet.fr)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 22:50:20 JST Ludovic Courtès

     in reply to

     • Drew DeVault
     • 🍒🌳 Hartmut Goebel
     • Daphne Preston-Kendal

     @drewdevault There’s no mention of the FSF on guix.gnu.org (administered by the Guix team) or even on gnu.org/s/guile, say, but I get what you’re saying. I’m uncomfortable with this perceived connection.

     Re reclaiming the label, that the FSF is in control of large parts of gnu.org, in particular the landing page, is indeed a problem (one we tried to address through diplomacy ca. 2020, in vain.)

     @kirschwipfel @ahelwer @dpk

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   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 22:50:21 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • Ludovic Courtès
     • 🍒🌳 Hartmut Goebel
     • Daphne Preston-Kendal

     @civodul @dpk @ahelwer @kirschwipfel I don't think you will successfully reclaim the label so long as RMS is the head of GNU and gnu.org has failed to make a statement condemning his actions.

     If you can't achieve that outcome, you should probably drop the label.

   • Embed this notice
     Ludovic Courtès (civodul@toot.aquilenet.fr)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 22:50:23 JST Ludovic Courtès

     in reply to

     • Drew DeVault
     • 🍒🌳 Hartmut Goebel
     • Daphne Preston-Kendal

     @dpk @ahelwer @kirschwipfel @drewdevault Note that GNU is not a formal org, let alone a fiscal sponsor. SFC could be a fiscal sponsor, but that’s a different issue.

     The question about GNU is more that of a label and its effect on projects that display it.

     Another question for me and others is whether to regain control over that label and make it a badge for user autonomy rather than a “stain”, as you call it.

   • Embed this notice
     Daphne Preston-Kendal (dpk@chaos.social)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 22:50:24 JST Daphne Preston-Kendal

     in reply to

     • Ludovic Courtès
     • Drew DeVault
     • 🍒🌳 Hartmut Goebel

     @civodul @drewdevault @kirschwipfel @ahelwer Have you considered the Software Freedom Conservancy?

   • Embed this notice
     Ludovic Courtès (civodul@toot.aquilenet.fr)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 22:50:26 JST Ludovic Courtès

     in reply to

     • Drew DeVault
     • 🍒🌳 Hartmut Goebel

     @drewdevault To me the value of GNU would be that of being a banner for those “hacking for freedom”, developing software with user autonomy in mind (esp. at the OS level since that’s what GNU is/was focusing on.)

     Unfortunately, toxic leadership made GNU a repellent even for many of its free software allies over the years.

     I think an umbrella org to push those goals still makes sense though, whether GNU or something else.

     @kirschwipfel @ahelwer

   • Embed this notice
     Ludovic Courtès (civodul@toot.aquilenet.fr)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 22:51:19 JST Ludovic Courtès

     in reply to

     • Drew DeVault
     • 🍒🌳 Hartmut Goebel
     • Daphne Preston-Kendal

     @drewdevault BTW, 👍 for https://writefreesoftware.org/ !

     This is the kind of initiative I very much support and where I think a common umbrella could be help coordinate actions. We need to once again draw attention to user freedom and autonomy, with a fresh inclusive take far away from some old judgmental campaigns.

     @kirschwipfel @ahelwer @dpk

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.