MaJ1 🐿️
Right Peeps, this squirrel is shagged! So off to bed to read some more on ASD .
Shout out to @VulcanTourist , you can come out now , peace brother! 🫶
Shout out to the overnight peeps too, have a great day you lot 😁
#GoodNight, sleep tight & remember bedbugs love a cuddle at night 😜
😊🫶🐿️🖖
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
@dramypsyd
Have you heard of this excellent theory/paper?
"The Intense World Theory – a unifying theory of the
neurobiology of autism
Kamila Markram* and Henry Markram
Laboratory of Neural Microcircuits, Brain Mind Institute, Ecole Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne, Lausanne, Switzerland"
(2010).
I got this recommended by a researcher in Scotland who has several family members with ADHD or autism.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2010.00224/full
VulcanTourist
https://www.spectrumnews.org/opinion/viewpoint/intense-world-theory-raises-intense-worries/
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
I had been looking for more recent research on the #IntenseWorldTheory, so thank you.
As your linked article states, autism research is progressing quickly. 2014 is not all that recent either.
Is anyone aware of scientifically solid new research from the last 5 years?
VulcanTourist
I have an acquaintance who consumes more of it routinely than I, but he lacks a Mastodon presence. I will ask him what he's seen recently (and perhaps promote Mastodon). I'm prone to not following through (duh), so permission to nag is always granted.
VulcanTourist
Well @HistoPol, I've been trying to nudge my friend for several days into sharing some information with you, but he has unexpectedly been more reluctant than I anticipated and seems very unlikely to be creating a Mastodon account to facilitate it.
The best I could get out of him was specific mention of Peter Vermeulen and one or more of his books. The originals may not be in English, so you might have to wait for translations. Searching for those might be a next step.
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
@VulcanTourist
Thanks a lot.
Yesterday, I learned that there might still be ways to access X anonymously, so I will see...
VulcanTourist
FYI, he has a Twitter/X account, but nothing I could find on Mastodon:
@Peter_Autisme
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
(1/2)
I really appreciate you doing so. Tim @MaJ1 is not the only one among my contacts who has been late diagnosed with #ASD/#autism or some other #neurodivergence within my contacts or their relatives here during the last year. In fact, my not small "sample" of contacts is so skewed towards neurodivergence that I have begun to wonder whether there might be so many more instances in ral life where people simply don't know of or share their condition.
(And Tim didn't know...
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
(2/2)
...of his divergence, so it can't be due to some "snowball"/network effect either.)
I do know, however, that a higher percentage of neurodivergent people seem to like #Mastodon than would be the population average--with a known diagnosis.)
//
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
I did find #PeterVerheulen's website:
I find his slogan intriguing:
"#AUTISM in CONTEXT
from #neurodiversity to #neuroharmony#
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
(1/n)
The fascinating article on #autism and #MachineLearning/#AI by
#PeterVerheulen, "Does [Dr. ]Temple Grandin’s* brain work like a computer or a human?" compares the learning process of current #AI technology (#LLMs) to the learning and sensory processing of #autistic people:
Dr. #Grandin "...compared her own learning processes with that of #Artificialintelligence “My brain works like an AI program of machine learning“.
https://petervermeulen.be/2022/10/24/does-temple-grandins-brain-work-like-a-computer-or-a-human/
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
(2/2)
...
people need a great deal more of
primary data to arrive at the same conclusion/perception non-#neurodivergent people do "automatically" (i.e. subconsciously):
"It is precisely because people with autism (have to) learn more consciously that we have to slow down in the learning processes we devise for them and offer them more learning experiences than we do for people without autism..." is the way author and speaker...
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
(3/3)
...#PeterVerheulen** phrases it.
Maybe, #LLM research will lead to breakthroughs in #ASD/#autism research as well?
In any event, the conclusions that are drawn are a far cry from the ones the authors of the #IntenseWorldTheory originally drew back in 2010.
//
VulcanTourist
In spite of their fame and success, I think I still have license to disagree with Grandin or Vermeulen. My life experience has been that it's trivially easy for me to learn new things, apparently much easier than for neurotypical people. I'm a so-called "quick study".
I didn't exploit that in life, no more than I succeeded in exploiting any of my other strengths, but it's nevertheless true for me and contrary to what Grandin says of herself. Not a good generalization.
VulcanTourist
When I was younger and still prone to making attempys to socialize, I had an unconscious habit of seeking out the odd and the outliers (of a sort). It seems I prefer my friends as I prefer humor: full of surprises that can catch me off guard.
Neurotypical people generally lack the ability to do that. They're boring and predictable.
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
My current and inadequate understanding of #autism is that it is sort of an "umbrella" term covering Differenz kinds of neurodivergent conditions.
You having divergent (pun intended 😉) experience from theirs would completely underpin that definition.
That said, I'd be curious to find out to which kinds of situations your "quick study" condition applies.
A memory like Sheldon's in #BigBangTheory, perhaps?
"Immediate" holistic understanding of concepts?
(If you don't...
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
...sharing.)
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
Hm, very interesting.
So, in contrast to the public(?) (mis?)conception that #autistic people have problems reading situations, you actually excel at them, sort of like predicting them?
(Thinking of that Tom Cruise movie in my pinned toots...)
VulcanTourist
It applies best to pragmatic things and visual and spatial challenges, perhaps. I don't know that it has any specific limits. It's reined-in somewhat by a diagnosed memory deficit that ultimately doomed me to being a jack-of-all-trades because I can't rote-memorize well enough to specialize... in ANYTHING.
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
Hi there! 🤗
Was about to send you a link to today's convo, but you beat me to it.
Enjoy your performance in the meantime. What are you 👀?
FrightenedRat 🏴
@VulcanTourist @HistoPol @MaJ1
Hi, I'll be interested to here anything you have to say about Intense World Theory, but I think the opinion piece you just linked to is very weak & doesn't actually engage with IWT but a straw man.
(I can give my reasoning later if I remember, but if I tried to get into it now I'd be late for attending a theatre performance. 😬 )
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
"It applies best to pragmatic things and visual and spatial challenges, perhaps."
As in, how many chewing gums are in a big glass jar or how wide is a river at a crossing?
#RoteMemorization has very limited uses, if you aren't an actor, which is why I probably always hated it. I would even argue that it inhibits Amy deep learning, as could be somewhat inferred from this article: ...
perhaps.https://www.verywellmind.com/rote-memorization-8350717
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
(2/2)
...
However, this only as a side note, as I can infer from your comments that you've reflected a lot on the subject and know your abilities (or lack thereof) well.
//
VulcanTourist
Dirty Harry was a wise dude: "A man has got to know his limitations." 😃
VulcanTourist
I suspect that I might have developed 98th-percentile fluid IQ rather than being born with it, as a result and remediation of that memory deficit, which did come factory-installed.
You discount the value of rote memorization. It's the ONLY thing that allows people of average intelligence to function as specialists in any role, and that specialization is generally essential to occupational success in this age. Had I been born in 1501, I'd have been highly valued.
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
💯 %.
Not only a dude. Any being. 🤓
FrightenedRat 🏴
@VulcanTourist @HistoPol @MaJ1
The IWT authors speculate that autistic kids may develop in a more balanced way in an environment that avoids sensory extremes/shocks that may overwhelm their hyper reactive neurology.
It doesn't suggest neglecting kids or sensory deprivation as Remington fears, but, during early learning, introducing new things cautiously looking for signs of distress i.e learning at the child's pace rather than forcing them to cope with what the average child usually likes.
FrightenedRat 🏴
@VulcanTourist @HistoPol @MaJ1
IWT of autism boils down to neural functional groupings being (relatively) over/ under connected leading to processing variations eg being hyper/hypo-reactive to a stimulus.
As the brain is highly plastic, the hyper reactivity itself reinforces the uneven (spiky) cognitive profile (think feedback loops/creating a rut).
Remington complains IWT ignores the hypo side, but IWT talks a lot about cognition being fragmented with parts being shut down/gated/isolated.
FrightenedRat 🏴
@VulcanTourist @HistoPol @MaJ1
Paying attention to your unique child's specific needs rather than taking the ABS route of forcing them to conform doesn't seem too dangerous to me.
The IWT authors speculate there are developmental windows where avoiding overload is especially important. Remington doesn't like this because parents who've missed the window might feel bad - but that's hardly an argument about the validity of the claim.
Ditto to whether or not the IWT is 100% +ive about Autism.
FrightenedRat 🏴
@VulcanTourist @HistoPol @MaJ1
So, all in all I'm not too impressed with the Remington critique, but non of that makes Intense World Theory correct.
Whenever I read a Neuroscience paper on Autism I try to think about whether it supports/undermines/is neutral on IWT, & so far it seems compatible with new stuff. So it remains my working theory. But still - it's just a theory.
I'd rather have truth than confirmation, so I'm very open to hear arguments against!
FrightenedRat 🏴
@HistoPol @VulcanTourist @MaJ1
I went to see "Myra's Story" but have run away at the interval.
(The sounds and lights were a bit harsh for me, but on top of that I thought the play horribly trite & clumsy, plus I was deeply uncomfortable at the audience laughing along at the mocking of people with physical differences. It's a memoir of a life resulting in homelessness & alcoholism - so a serious issue but played for laughs in the first half. It wasn't my kind of humour, so a bit alienating.)
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
"the audience laughing along at the mocking of people with physical differences."
How awful. Sorry to hear that you had such a bad evening but good that you left early.
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
That sounds rather well thought through, me thinks, when educating a [potentially] autistic child:
"during early learning, introducing new things cautiously looking for signs of distress i.e learning at the child's pace rather than forcing them to cope with what the average child usually likes."
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
"ABS route of forcing them to conform"--You are saying that the standard method of including children with autism spectrum disorders in class is to make them do things like any of the others, despite their neurodivergence?!?
"Remington doesn't like this because parents who've missed the window might feel bad"--ludicrous, in fact
"Ditto to whether or not the IWT is 100% +ive about Autism." Could you rephrase this, please?
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
That sounds like an excellent [and rather scientific] approach:
"Whenever I read a Neuroscience paper on Autism I try to think about whether it supports/undermines/is neutral on IWT, & so far it seems compatible with new stuff. So it remains my working theory. But still - it's just a theory."
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
"98th-percentile fluid IQ" - I am not familiar with that terminology. Care to explain a bit?
"average intelligence" - please define this term.
IMO, if someone needed to extensively learn things by heart for his/her day-to-day tasks on the job, he'd be below average intelligence from my point of view, even though knowing things by heart might be handy at times.*
I agree that specialization is needed for success for most people, as knowledge has become to extensive.
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
* OFC, this doesn't include occupations like being an actor, where #RoteMemorization is a core compentency.
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
(1/2)
Very interesting. Let's have a look at #PeterAutism hypothesis in addition, as phrased in "Autism and the predictive brain."
First, though, still being a novice re/ #IWT, I will just take your summary "as is:"
"IWT authors speculate that autistic kids may develop in a more balanced way in an environment that avoids sensory extremes/shocks that may overwhelm their hyper reactive neurology."
That made a lot of sense to me. Peter, however states..
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
@FrightenedRat @VulcanTourist @MaJ1
(2/3)
... quite the opposite, quoting Dr. #TempleGrandin, another autism expert, in my understanding*
What it really comes down to, is this: we should focus much more on bottom-up learning than the classic top-down learning that typifies education. In practice, this indeed comes down to what #Temple promotes so hard these days: ‘exposure‘. Expose children to many and above all different experiences."
What am I missing?
...
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
@FrightenedRat @VulcanTourist @MaJ1
(3/3)
...*I have not read his book, just this article of his about it:
https://petervermeulen.be/2022/10/24/does-temple-grandins-brain-work-like-a-computer-or-a-human/
//
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
Just to be sure:
"IWT talks a lot about cognition being fragmented with parts being shut down/gated/isolated."
...and this makes an autistic brain function less effieciently than a non-neurodivergent one, as information processing is inhibited by these factors, correct?
VulcanTourist
I'm a Mensa member, n'est-ce pas? I've been "diagnosed" to have a fluid IQ that exceeds that of 98% or more of the population. The last time I was tested (WAIS-III), it was explained to me that my memory deficit affected the result and that, in the absence of that memory issue, the result would likely have been higher, so my true IQ might be greater than 98th percentile. Remember, I said that I suspect that my IQ was a *compensation* for poor memory, but it's affected by it.
VulcanTourist
@HistoPol @FrightenedRat @MaJ1
Ya know, if this IWT was really that perfectly descriptive of autism, I would have heard about it in the last decade. Other AuDHD people in my sphere would have mentioned it. Articles about it would have knocked on my eyelids. It would have been discussed in the autism support group. None of that happened.
Instead, this discussion is the very first that I'm hearing of it.
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
(1/2)
That sounds quite reasonable at face value. I am neither a medical professional nor a natural scientist, nor diagnosed.
There might be an alternative explanation for this lack of discussion, though.
As I know from completely unrelated profession, there would be a lot of topics relevant for lay people with corresponding concerns without there ever being public discussions about them in the types of "groups" you mentioned. The reason is quite...
@FrightenedRat @MaJ1
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
(2/n)
...simple: the amount of "basic" knowledge and understanding of the subject matter is just so much or complex that only professionals or scholars can really grasp it.
IDK whether you tried reading the article I'd linked*.
Despite some background in systems theory and quite some interest in the subject, I really struggled with this academic research paper in #neurobiology.
Another issue in general is that...
* https://mastodon.social/@HistoPol/111343217564776557
@FrightenedRat @MaJ1
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
@VulcanTourist @FrightenedRat @MaJ1
(3/n)
...all to often the most vociferous or most "notable"people of a subject matter are neither the most diligent scientists or the most knowledgeable ones or they stray into "adjacent areas "inferring" way too much (something that is currently happening in US law commentaries re/ the Trump trials.)
Another might be, in particular when pharmaceutical interests might be involved, that lobbyists are working to suppress it.
In short,...
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
@VulcanTourist @FrightenedRat @MaJ1
(4/4)
...a complex theory not having been discussed in laymen circles doesn’t make a theory less likely to be correct.
I am not claiming that this IS the case for #IWT, as my personal expertise is insufficient for this subject matter.
//
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
(1/n)
#IWT vs. "LLM/AI view" in #autism.
Thank you, @FrightenedRat.
So, semantics is of real importance here.
The way you sum it up, the only difference b/w the two approaches boils down to this:
Autistic children should be exposed to new experiences using "predictable routines".*
Begs, the question, what are "predictable routines" that can be used? Probably not (just?) learning at the same desk at the same hours...?
*I am excluding the...
FrightenedRat 🏴
@HistoPol @VulcanTourist @MaJ1
Both IWT & the extract you quote agree that since autistic kids learn differently you need an educational approach that centres the childs' unique needs rather than a one size fits all strategy. Let kids explore what fascinates them BUT ALSO be cautious about what overwhelms them.
IWT suggest an environment as enriched as a child is comfortable with but warns against overload & suggests predictable routines may be more helpful with this than chaos.
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
@FrightenedRat @VulcanTourist @MaJ1
(2/n)
..."overload" aspect, as my feeling is that neither #PeterAutism, nor #TempleGrandin would object to this assertion, I would think.
However, the citation from Dr. #Grandin regarding the comparison to LLM's and providing as much data as possible for differentiation, makes me things that at least she does not share this point of view anymore. (correct?)
The consequences that parents and teachers can deduct from these--at face value--opposing...
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
@FrightenedRat @VulcanTourist @MaJ1
(3/n)
...perspectives, are quite staggering:
"LLM view": provide as many experiences / stimuli as possible to a child.
"IWT view": always make sure that you do not trigger a hyperstimulation/overload response.
Using your recent story about the theater visit:
Theaters provide a unique learning experience. Every play/performance is different.
All theaters make often exptensive use of lighting. Lighting is known to cause "hyperstimuli" in (some)...
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
@FrightenedRat @VulcanTourist @MaJ1
(4/4)
...neurodivergent people.
What should our fictitious parent do?
PS: not sure if the term "hyperstimuli" is used in scientific circles or not.
FrightenedRat 🏴
@HistoPol @VulcanTourist @MaJ1
Autistic brains operate differently - so some functions are more efficient & others less.
There can be gaps in connectivity resulting in a lack of integration.
Neural resources being channelled into some highly functional areas may mean that other areas are less well served. & what an autistic brain specialises in might be odd by normal standards e.g less resources devoted to recognising facial expressions & more on eg systematising the natural world.
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
Ah, thanks, now I understand.
Sounds reasonable.
FrightenedRat 🏴
@HistoPol @VulcanTourist @MaJ1
"Ditto to whether or not the IWT is 100% +ive about Autism."
Remington says some people like IWT because it talks about autistic strengths. Then says that it also mentions weaknesses so isn't as Autism positive as it first appears.
But
1) the validity of IWT has nothing to do with whether it's positive or negative about Autism, the test is whether or not it's accurate.
2) most would agree Au IS a mixed bag of strengths & weeknesses
FrightenedRat 🏴
@HistoPol @VulcanTourist @MaJ1
If an autistic kid finds something "normal" upsetting eg change or eye contact, an instinct of care givers can be to toughen them up by repeatedly exposing them to the situation so they can "get used to it".
While we CAN get used to things we find tough, if not done sensitively at our own pace & with consent the trauma can be counter productive.
...
Dianora (Diane Bruce)
@FrightenedRat @HistoPol @VulcanTourist @MaJ1 Which is why so many autistics are computer programmers and in the past, watchmakers. Similar concentration skills are needed in both.
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
That is sound advice.
So, your "early-warning signal" as a parent would be your kid telling you, correct?--Trying to second guess an autistic brain with regard to what might "upset" it as a non-neurodivergent adult might cause "overload" in the parents. 😉
FrightenedRat 🏴
@HistoPol @VulcanTourist @MaJ1
What you do is look for signs of overload beginning and try to head it off.
(I took my kids to a lot of plays - normally it was fine, but on the times they told me they needed to leave, we did.)
Predictable routines: it's not about stopping variety or repeating stuff till it's boring, but giving the kid enough stability for them to not feel too at sea & out of their depth. Letting them make sense of one situation before tossing them into the next one.
HistoPol (#HP) 🥥 🌴
Thanks, that would have been my inference from what you said:
"It's just doing what all parents do to look out for their kids, but with a keen understanding that your kid might be pushed to their limits by things that don't bother other kids."
Smaller kids-- younger than 4?
FrightenedRat 🏴
@HistoPol @VulcanTourist @MaJ1
With smaller kids it's just watching for signs of distress - unhappy rocking, covering ears or eyes, hiding/averting gaze, difficulty with speech, etc etc.
It's just doing what all parents do to look out for their kids, but with a keen understanding that your kid might be pushed to their limits by things that don't bother other kids. [Getting irritated at their being "unreasonable" & telling them to stop "making a fuss about nothing" is unlikely to help.]
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