Conversation

Notices

1. Embed this notice
   adaddinsane (Steve Turnbull) (adaddinsane@mastodonapp.uk)'s status on Monday, 25-Sep-2023 10:40:03 JST adaddinsane (Steve Turnbull)

   Controversial Opinion: I don't use Hero's Journey.

   I did in my first book but quickly decided it was far too restrictive and not actually that useful.

   The fact it has infected almost all storytelling is quite troubling, IMO.

   Turns out Campbell's monomyth idea is not even close to be being correct.

   From the linked article:

   "academic folklorists and scholars of ancient literature almost universally reject Campbell’s theories as nonsense"

   https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2020/12/31/the-heros-journey-is-nonsense/

   #writing #writingCommunity

   • clacke likes this.
   • clacke repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     adaddinsane (Steve Turnbull) (adaddinsane@mastodonapp.uk)'s status on Monday, 25-Sep-2023 17:45:35 JST adaddinsane (Steve Turnbull)

     in reply to

     • TJ Radcliffe

     @tjradcliffe

     Indeed.

     Admittedly it's a very long article (and personally I would have structured it differently) but essentially Campbell's approach is sexist and racist.

     The summary is interesting: it's just a set of tropes which may or may not appear in a story.

     clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     TJ Radcliffe (tjradcliffe@mastodon.scot)'s status on Monday, 25-Sep-2023 17:45:36 JST TJ Radcliffe

     in reply to

     @adaddinsane In improv theatre hero's journey is sometimes taught as one template among many. I find it--and all other cookie-cutter plot templates--unusable for writing and not even all that useful for improv, where having a shared idea of the kind of story you're telling can help. But the interesting stories are the ones that follow characters or weird ideas or some internal logic of their own.

   • Embed this notice
     adaddinsane (Steve Turnbull) (adaddinsane@mastodonapp.uk)'s status on Monday, 25-Sep-2023 17:45:37 JST adaddinsane (Steve Turnbull)

     in reply to

     • Eniko Fox
     • Sarah

     @gaycodegal @eniko

     Campbell's approach is sexist and racist.

     The summary is interesting: Hero's Journey is just a set of tropes which may or may not appear in a story (even the ones he uses as examples).

     clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Sarah (gaycodegal@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 25-Sep-2023 17:45:41 JST Sarah

     in reply to

     • Eniko Fox

     @adaddinsane @eniko Septimus heap is widely regarded as being more popular for its story telling than its adherence to common editor suggestions.

     And the hunger games honestly who cares how it ends or if you disagree broadly with how the story should have gone or characters developed. It just has very rich world building and that was so powerful the author could have made a variety of changes and people would have still loved it

   • Embed this notice
     Sarah (gaycodegal@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 25-Sep-2023 17:45:42 JST Sarah

     in reply to

     • Eniko Fox

     @adaddinsane @eniko I feel like it's fine if a trope is common every writer has to learn somehow and it's a known trope readers like, and writers are free to ignore the trope if they want to. I hear Chinese fantasy has different tropes.

     I honestly care more about the world building and characters than if the story uses a common archetype or even has 'good' writing.

   • Embed this notice
     Roy Brander🇨🇦 (roybrander@urbanists.social)'s status on Monday, 25-Sep-2023 17:45:47 JST Roy Brander🇨🇦

     in reply to

     @adaddinsane

     SF writing great Joe Haldeman had novels that deviated from expected plots a lot after about 2000. I recall a fragment of an interview, roughly:

     I started feeling sorry for my own characters; I was frog-marching the poor bastards through this sequence of setting, rising action, conflict, climax and denouement as I put them through hell.

     I had to let them break out of the forced march and be free to not be an amusement.

     clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     adaddinsane (Steve Turnbull) (adaddinsane@mastodonapp.uk)'s status on Monday, 25-Sep-2023 17:45:47 JST adaddinsane (Steve Turnbull)

     in reply to

     • morecowbell

     @morecowbell

     If you read the article you'd know that wasn't true.

     clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     morecowbell (morecowbell@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 25-Sep-2023 17:45:48 JST morecowbell

     in reply to

     @adaddinsane Yeah, it is so insidious, it infected storytelling over 5,000 years ago.

   • Embed this notice
     Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. (boydstephensmithjr@hachyderm.io)'s status on Monday, 25-Sep-2023 17:45:50 JST Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.

     in reply to

     • Maggie Mae Fish

     @adaddinsane @MaggieMaeFish has an excellent video essay regarding the monomyth and it's lack of universality.

     clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     nerdseyeview (nerdseyeview@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 25-Sep-2023 17:46:02 JST nerdseyeview

     in reply to

     @adaddinsane ages ago when i was shoppng my memoir, an agent said to me "are you on the hero's journey? please DO NOT BE ON THE HERO'S JOURNEY." i'm forever grateful for that.

     clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     adaddinsane (Steve Turnbull) (adaddinsane@mastodonapp.uk)'s status on Monday, 25-Sep-2023 17:46:03 JST adaddinsane (Steve Turnbull)

     in reply to

     • NKTSecurity
     • Niedliche Nacktschnecke
     • Christina Dongowski

     @Dss @niedlichenacktschnecke @Tinido

     Read the article.

     clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     NKTSecurity (dss@infosec.exchange)'s status on Monday, 25-Sep-2023 17:46:04 JST NKTSecurity

     in reply to

     • Niedliche Nacktschnecke
     • Christina Dongowski

     @niedlichenacktschnecke @adaddinsane @Tinido there's several, no? The Odyssey, the labours of Hercules, Troy. All the big known ones feature a hero going off on his journey. Often several times!

   • Embed this notice
     Niedliche Nacktschnecke (niedlichenacktschnecke@kolektiva.social)'s status on Monday, 25-Sep-2023 17:46:08 JST Niedliche Nacktschnecke

     in reply to

     • Christina Dongowski

     @adaddinsane @Tinido i remember asking one some internet site for a specific example of ancient stories fitting the heroes journey, everyone insisted these stories are common noone knew an example except star wars

     clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Matti (mmin@assemblag.es)'s status on Monday, 25-Sep-2023 17:46:19 JST Matti

     in reply to

     • teemuki

     @adaddinsane @teemuki I’ve had only a passing interest in Campbell and the hero’s journey as an academic, but it’s interesting to think how this kind of theory can influence the world and become a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.

     clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Monday, 25-Sep-2023 17:46:28 JST clacke

     in reply to

     • Matti
     • teemuki
     @mmin @teemuki @adaddinsane the "the hero's journey" journey
   • Embed this notice
     Hannah Steenbock (firlefanz@writing.exchange)'s status on Monday, 25-Sep-2023 17:46:30 JST Hannah Steenbock

     in reply to

     @adaddinsane

     Ohhhh! Thank you for letting me know.

     So happy you enjoyed it. ❤️

     clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     adaddinsane (Steve Turnbull) (adaddinsane@mastodonapp.uk)'s status on Monday, 25-Sep-2023 17:46:31 JST adaddinsane (Steve Turnbull)

     in reply to

     • Hannah Steenbock

     @Firlefanz

     Indeed.

     Just finished "Wolf's Quest" BTW - I really liked it.

   • Embed this notice
     Hannah Steenbock (firlefanz@writing.exchange)'s status on Monday, 25-Sep-2023 17:46:32 JST Hannah Steenbock

     in reply to

     @adaddinsane

     Totally with you.

     I listened to a lecture about the Hero's Journey a few months ago, and kept thinking that it was quite... unhelpful.

     Definitely not "the" central story structure of the world... nope.

   • Embed this notice
     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Monday, 25-Sep-2023 17:46:33 JST clacke

     in reply to

     @adaddinsane It has been so drilled into me by modern media that I've been thinking that if I start writing stories I could sketch out a world and a Hero's Journey within that world ... and then write about anybody else but that guy.

     Just as a way of not falling into it.

   • Embed this notice
     adaddinsane (Steve Turnbull) (adaddinsane@mastodonapp.uk)'s status on Monday, 25-Sep-2023 17:46:46 JST adaddinsane (Steve Turnbull)

     in reply to

     • clacke

     @clacke

     It's an approach. 🙃

     clacke likes this.