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   novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Sep-2023 05:47:11 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

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   @scorpiontongue I... don't know that we should be punishing people... exactly... because I don't actually think that will make them understand what they did or stop doing it and I don't think it will really do anything but make us cruel and vindictive... but I do think we should be willing to do whatever it takes to defend our communities from harm (including repeat harm) and that can end up *looking* like punishing people because it can involve beating them up or killing them in self defense or disassociating with them or exiling them. But I'm not sure the logic of punishment really holds up as opposed to the logic of community defense. Then again, I was only mildly beaten and psychologically abused growing up, I didn't experience anything truly heinous, so maybe I'm speaking where I shouldn't

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     🏴 (scorpiontongue@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Sep-2023 05:47:12 JST 🏴

     how the fuck are people conflating "prison abolition" (aka get the state & slave catchers & private industry out of punishment) with "PUNISHING RAPISTS IS BAD PUNISH NO ONE IF YOU WANT TO PUNISH RAPISTS YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE."

     oh my holy fucking god, this is embarrassing.

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     🏴 (scorpiontongue@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Sep-2023 05:47:12 JST 🏴

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     no, i actually want people who commit heinous human rights violations to suffer.
     i do want them to hurt.
     i want them to understand what they did.

     i DO NOT BELIEVE that saying "oh uwu he was hurting. maybe we jus hug him" is a proper response to rape, abuse, murder, pedophilia, etc.

     people have the fucking brain worms.
     abolition does not mean "be nice," it means "the slave catchers & capitalists should not be making these decisions."

     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ repeated this.
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     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Sep-2023 05:58:23 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

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     @scorpiontongue that does make sense yes! And with that clarification in mind, I don't think we disagree in substance — which is why I said what I said in the first place, because shifting to speaking in terms of doing whatever is needed to ensure the safety and health of the community instead of punishment is an important part of actual abolitionism that I think you'd grok.

     To be fair, there is sort of a spectrum for reactive to proactive, so we might still differ a bit since I'm a pretty nonviolent person despite my trash talk, but again, we don't disagree in substance I don't think.

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     🏴 (scorpiontongue@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Sep-2023 05:58:45 JST 🏴

     @anarchopunk_girl

     i think you are also hitting on something i've been thinking lately ::

     i'm not sure if i believe in "transformative" justice because i'm not sure i believe in abusers ability to change. and, even if they could, i'm not sure their needs should be centered in all this.

     i think if the goal is "self-defense for the victims" & not "transform" or "punish" the abuser .... that actually is a CRUCIAL frame shift, because it centers the hurt person, who SHOULD be centered.

     eg. we should be RESTORING the survivor's power, safety, material goods..... not RESTORING the abuser's reputation.

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     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Sep-2023 06:01:27 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

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     @scorpiontongue 100% agreed, and this is something that I've said multiple times every time this subject comes up! I actually recently had a fairly long post that was about how transformative justice (or whatever you want to call it) literally makes no sense and just doesn't work — even in theory — unless you start *first* with the willingness to do anything and everything necessary to defend people from harm and help the victims of harm operating as the foundational thing. With that foundational principle in mind abusers suddenly have a very scary incentive to change or leave whereas without it such softer attempts at Justice end up taking the form of laying down for the abuser to steamroll you while very nicely asking them not to.

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     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Sep-2023 06:04:27 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

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     @scorpiontongue yup 😭

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     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Sep-2023 06:12:04 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

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     @scorpiontongue I have had my reservations about KYLR as a slogan to some degree, but I recognize that it operates as a short phrase to gesture at a much broader attitude and philosophy (in the colloquial sense of the word, and also, given the Jewish roots, the real sense too), one which I *don't* have problems with. I've more than once considered putting in my bio as a gesture of solidarity. Incidentally fucking k y l r discourse was my introduction to the fedevers because it was the going conflict when I signed up to Mastodon :truetorture:

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     🏴 (scorpiontongue@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Sep-2023 06:13:45 JST 🏴

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     i will absolutely hold the hill that violence can be a necessary & valid part of justice.

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     🏴 (scorpiontongue@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Sep-2023 06:13:47 JST 🏴

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     pop culture radicalism is gna make me fucking crazy.
     lib cooption of radical language is gna make me go crazy.
     christianization of radical values is gna make me unhinge my jaw and swallow luther.

     i am so icked out by the manipulation & misappropriation of language. i am so grossed out with the discourse. people are showing their true colors (as being fucking abuse ENABLERS who have no sense of the histories of change & community justice) &&& i DO NOT LIKE THEM.

     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ repeated this.
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     🏴 (scorpiontongue@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Sep-2023 06:27:15 JST 🏴

     @anarchopunk_girl
     i also think fear / daunt is an excellent propaganda tactic. like, half of keeping the threats away is making them think you're fucking scary.

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     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Sep-2023 06:27:15 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

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     @scorpiontongue true. And yes, I recognize it as a fair energy.

     My reservations with KYLR as a slogan probably only really come from the fact that, one, I haven't even ever met a rapist that I know of; two, the fact that I was brought up on continual indoctrination saying that, on the one hand, people are constantly falsely accused of rape, and — on the other hand — that as an AMAB person I am inherently a pedophile and a rapist and a danger to all women and children around me if I am not entitely asexual (something my mother out and out told me to my face, and consistently treated me and my dad like), as well as, to a lesser degree, the fact that there is a startling incidence of trans women falsely being accused of sexual crimes.

     But crucially, none of that is truly relevant to the phrase itself, or what survivors mean when they are saying it, and all of it centers me and my uncomfortableness over defense of survivors and the community as a whole, so it's why I don't let it control what I think or what I do or what I say.

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     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Sep-2023 06:50:33 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

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     @scorpiontongue you're SO sweet ❤️